TheManaDrain.com
November 18, 2025, 02:07:22 pm *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Ruby Red (R/W tempo)  (Read 4127 times)
Law
Basic User
**
Posts: 73


LawMag7
View Profile
« on: March 12, 2006, 04:59:57 pm »

This deck is buy no means TMWA though it is in the same colors. This deck tries to do the same things but at a slightly angel in how it does it. It is trying to slow/lock them long enough to beat them into the ground. While TMWA looks like it is trying to race a lot of the decks with its own speed. In short the deck is trying to win by gaining tempo while beating there face in. Here is the deck before I say anything else:

Deck Type: Agro countrol

Ruby Red (R/W tempo)
Lands 20

2 Mountain
2 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
4 Plateau
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Karakas

Creatures 18
4 Goblin Legionnaire
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 True Believer
3 Kataki, War's Wage

Spells 22
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Null Rod
3 Magma Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby

Sideboard 15 (this is what I used when I was testing but this as always is really open to change)
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Sacred Ground
4 Erase
3 Rule of Law

As you can see it does use some of the same cards but it is using many that TMWA would not given that it is not trying to out lay them as much as kill them.

Before I go on to saying why I picked each card I have build in as many stop welder spells as I could without compromising how the deck should run. The stop welders are Goblin Legionnaire, Grim Lavamancer, Swords to Plowshares, Lightning Bolt, and Magma Jet. While these cards are not just here to take out welder they can and have in what testing I can do on MWS.

The cards themselves
Since some of the cards in the mana base are well if your not running them the deck will not work. So ill go over the cards that seem odd.

Karakas: Helps deal with Oath in some form. I know it does not work against all oath decks now will it most likely get more then one use. But having it does mean it stands that much more of a chance so the deck can win.

Goblin Legionnaire: He is a beater, removal, and a way to sneak in that last few points of damage. His white ability has not been used much but that is from the fact it is not that useful. Yes he is an odd pick but he is also the one card that inspired the whole deck. Even though he was not used in the first version of it he was quickly added since he is better then both Mogg Fanatic and Icatian Javelineers. Though he costs twice as much and you need red to use it, though since he was added he has not let me down.

Gorilla Shaman: Kills moxes, artifact lands, and low grade artifact mana acceleration. He might seem limited in what he does but it should never be dead since he can help with the beat down.

Grim Lavamancer: Takes out any number of things, can single handily take out a few deck types is he hits play, can help take out bigger creatures when blocking, and reuses cards that I already used. He does all those things and can attack for one if need be.

True Believer: He can stop combo, many discard effects, and helps with the beat down. Though his double while sometimes can make him un cast able he becomes a speed bump that many decks need to deal with.

Kataki, War’s Wage: He can single handily take down stax if he gets into play with shaman and rod back up. He even turn lower grade artifact decks into speed bumps if he hits play.

Swords to Plowshares: Can help deal with oath and takes out other threats. A standard for any deck that runs white in type 1, that’s a fact.

Lightning Bolt: With all the hate against welder running lava dart is not needed I think. Plus this can also help get the last few points through as well as take out bigger creatures that might slow down the game plan. But if I knew that the meta was currently just using welders as the creature I would use the lava dart. Even if it could strain the mana base a little.

Seal of Cleansing: This is a cast and hold Disenchant even if some times its used the moment it comes into play. The fact that it can site around and hold out until it is needed has already been helpful.

Null Rod: Shuts down power, stops slaver, and it can shut down decks ability to move. Though you might say why run these when kataki is in the deck, they work as much as a team about as much as they do not work together.

Magma Jet: The newest card in the deck as far as testing goes. So far it has added more threats to the deck and can help dig down two cards.

Sideboard: This is still be adjusted but as it stands now is trying to help beat oath and make the stax match up easier. It still needs work though as should change over time anyway.

Match ups
Note: These are based on what I see on MWS so it is not what I call real testing. I need to see the deck in real life before I can fully see the deck work. Plus this was a while ago so the tops decks have most likely changed enough to make this deck less of a problem to them.

All Stax builds: It comes down to who can lock the other first. I have had people give up before they even started when I placed kataki into play first turn.

All Oath builds: Being one of the harder match ups it takes as much luck and knowing what build they are playing. Dealing with oath is an art form I am only starting to learn with the deck. If you have no idea how to handle there deck you lose most of the time.

Fish: The deck is about even when facing fish U/W is the hardest so far. Given that if mage was called on something that would let you to start to control there deck they can slow you down long enough to at least get a head of the game.

Control Slaver: With the small amount I have played against. This deck seams to use a lot of the stax hate plus True Believer to stop it. Given them a really hard time.

Food Chain Goblins: Yet again this is a real hard game to play. If they can play out before you can slow there growth it is over. This match up can even be harder then oath half the time and easier the other half depending if the player knows what they are doing.

Random Agro: The deck can just kill most of the random stuff. Though some times they can wil by trowing down alot of large creatures more then the deck can stop fast enough. But most of the time it is an easy win.


This deck still needs more testing and game time. I know that since it always will any good deck needs as much game time as it can get in order to be adjusted to what is coming. But one guy can only test so much with out getting bored. I am always looking for ideas, other peoples testing, and hoping the next set will bring the one card that this deck will need to truly shine.


The deck and my meta:

Given that the deck is still under testing and if I put it together I would be three duel lands short (plus power). It might have a few slow downs here and there. But given that if I did put it together heres what it would need to face:

1 Powered G/R madness
1 Powered Erayo control 
1 Powered U/B control (Kind of slow for its type though)
1 Powered FCG
1 Mono Blue Storm Combo (using brain freeze to kill by decking)
2 Affinity
1 W/R weenie
1 W/B Sui
1 Mono Blue Control
1 Phasing lock deck
1 U/W fish
1 Ten Land Stompy
2 Random junk decks

Yes there are a few more decks in the meta then that. But this is a large sampling of what I am up against. It’s scrubby and random so its hard to sideboard against most of the time. Plus only a few of the decks are played all the time. It has a habit of changing as people try differing things and the fact that some people will not always be there.

But in any case would the deck hold up well against that type of meta?
Logged
Sgt. Pepper
Guest
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2006, 05:33:35 pm »

With Kataki and Shaman already maindeck, have though about Chalice of the Void instead of Null Rod? Chalice is cheaper and you can kill/stop the artifacts that are already out with above named cards.
Logged
Law
Basic User
**
Posts: 73


LawMag7
View Profile
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2006, 05:40:13 pm »

Chalice of the Void is more likely to shut down half of the deck. That is just not good for the deck over all. Yes chalice is good but its as much a problem to the deck as it is to many other decks of a similar types. Anything that harms the deck you are using more then it harms other decks is not worth playing.
Logged
Tha Gunslinga
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1583


De-Errata Mystical Tutor!

ThaGunslingaMOTL
View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2006, 08:17:14 pm »

Chalice for 1>Erase.
Do yourself a favor and play Disenchant or something like that.
Logged

Don't tolerate splittin'
Law
Basic User
**
Posts: 73


LawMag7
View Profile
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2006, 08:23:42 pm »

I am using Seal of Cleansing maindeck plus like I sad that was what I was using at that time. Disenchant would just add more more of them a reason to set it at two.
Logged
PucktheCat
My interests include blue decks, arguing, and beer.
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 549


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2006, 08:55:31 pm »

Quote
Chalice of the Void is more likely to shut down half of the deck. That is just not good for the deck over all. Yes chalice is good but its as much a problem to the deck as it is to many other decks of a similar types. Anything that harms the deck you are using more then it harms other decks is not worth playing.
I think the suggestion was using Chalice soley as a Mox hoser, and never setting it at anything other than 0.  That wouldn't hurt your deck at all, and it is a real pain for most of the field.
Logged
Law
Basic User
**
Posts: 73


LawMag7
View Profile
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2006, 09:08:36 pm »

True but I have a bunch of ways to shut down moxes already. Why add more mox hate when there are like 3 differing ways to dump them from doing anything. Plus I hardly care to hate out the moxes on purpose most of the time. I do it only when it would put me farther in front.

Plus freezing moxes with rod and then letting them either get rid or slow themselves down by saving them when Katki is in play. Then again the might just let them die. Which im happy with and if Shaman hits play and neather of those two are then I will just get rid of moxes.

In short I dont care about there moxes much anyway. Since I can deal with them enough already. So shutting down alot more things with Null Rod is what I want anyway. Mox hate should not be part of the mager plan but I side effect of it. If a deck cannot do that then it is not worth really good testing.

Edit: Though rod is in there mostly to harm manabases anyway. Just it can hit more the CotV can for the deck. Stoping moxes alone is not just the only reason you should run a card.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2006, 09:54:43 pm by Law » Logged
Harlequin
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1860


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2006, 08:10:07 am »

I think the deck would really benfiet alot from either:
Hearth Kami
Goblin Vandal

The reason being, you have too much "small" hate and not enough big hate.  Hearth Kami has a few great features: For one, he always takes something with him when he dies.  Be it a lowly mox, or something bigger like crucible or something like that.  Secondly, he can kill animated mishra's, wich actually makes him extremely good for going 2 for 1 on creatures against Fish. and lastly a 2/1 body over a 1/1 body.  If you have him combined with mox monkies then you have two cheap casting costs to deal with troublesome chalices.

Goblin vandal also fits the theme of kataki like destruction.  Vandal is a great 1 drop against stax, and has merit against gifts.   Use your swords, bolts, and jets, to clear the path of any blockers... and then going to town vandlizing the crap outa thier board.

Althogh this might make your deck look more like TMWA... I think these utility cards are much better than something like goblin legionnaire
Logged

Member of Team ~ R&D ~
Law
Basic User
**
Posts: 73


LawMag7
View Profile
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2006, 10:54:35 am »

More artifact hate could be good. Though so far I have found that the deck can just take out almost any arifact. Let me list what the deck has already to take out artifacts:

Kataki, War's Wage (slows them down/blows things up)
Null Rod (shuts stuff down makeing them more likely to be blown away with kataki)
Gorilla Shaman (Blows up miner stuff when nothing else is there)
Seal of Cleansing (gets rid of anything I would want to get rid of)

In all thats already alot of artifact hate. By adding even more it will become to focused on killing arifacts I think.

Goblin Legionnaire's biggest advantage is that he can sneak through that last two points of damage. He also take out Mishra's factory's if hes the one blocking it (unless they have 4 of them out).


But im not saying you said is a bad idea just that its one that might not be needed. Plus I need to pick up two more Hearth Kami's before I can test it at all. I just hate these hard to get commons...
Logged
Harlequin
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1860


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2006, 11:21:34 am »

Right, by no means did I mean to imply the inclusion of

3-4 Kataki
4 Vandal
4 Monkies
4 Seals
4 Hearth kami

... thats just silly.  Rather more diversification.  I think right now the 4 mox monkeys, 3 kataki,  3 null rods have a great degree of overlap.  They all put pressure on moxen.  so you have 10 cards that punish Moxen.dec and only 4 cards that actually give you targeted destruction.  I think the monkeys are you narrowest destruction card, and swapping them for some combination of vandals and hearth kami's will give you better results.

I would say that hearth kami fits the deck more than mox monkey.  A hearth kami has the ability to whack a crucible or sphere with little trouble.  Monkey (7 mana), Kataki (land recursion = pay for artifacts), and null rod (doesnt help) leave you in "dig for seal" mode when squaring off against crucible/waste or either sphere.
Logged

Member of Team ~ R&D ~
Law
Basic User
**
Posts: 73


LawMag7
View Profile
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2006, 11:31:47 am »

That sounds better. Though I still need to pick up two of the kami. Though it would also mean that CotV can hate me out even more if its set at two. But thats what the sidebord is for  Very Happy. But only time will tell how it trully works even as it stands now.
Logged
Harlequin
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1860


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2006, 12:04:39 pm »

I would say something like
18 Creatures:

3 Kataki
3 True Belivers
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Goblin Vandal
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Goblin Legionairs
2 Hearth Kami


There are very few creatures that you would actually WANT to see mulitples of.  Also Each creature has the ability to be 'dead' based on matchup.  Basically there are no creatures in your deck that justify running 4 of in my book.  Only run 4 of a card if, you want to see one ever game - ever matchup, and if you would be happy seeing 2 in half of your games.

Running few 4ofs beginins to edge into consistancy issues.  But you have alot of times where either-or would work.  for example:
To kill a welder you need -> lavamancer or legionairs.
To stop moxen you need -> shaman or kataki.
To take on large, problematic, single artifacts you need -> Hearth Kami or vandal
To take care of a stax, shop aggro, artifact board -> kataki or vandal

So i dont think running only 3ofs and 2ofs will give you consistancy issues.  Surprisingly, I just noticed that for all situations above you have a 1cc and a 2cc creature solution.  Thats rather impressive.  That is what you call consistancy.
Logged

Member of Team ~ R&D ~
Law
Basic User
**
Posts: 73


LawMag7
View Profile
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2006, 12:37:55 pm »

It might sound good. But it does not look right though. Im happy see as many copys as I can of most of the creatures in the deck. Since I have gone through 3 shamans in a game and all three Kataki's since he knew if one stayed in play his plan would be over.

The decks that should be somehwat random are those that do broken things. This deck does not do that, so it needs as many copys of the cards that can speed the game to a win. Plus I do not like twisting a deck till it falls a part. It does work shockly well as I had it at the start.

I know what ever I say is most likely not worth crap but the best way to see if something works as is, is give it a try. With each change you make to the deck more and more it looks like TMWA. Yes the decks have things in common but past they are different decks.


But hearth Kami is a good idea one that I could squeeze two into the deck in a snap I can already think of two cards I can remove one of and fit them in. Plus I do need to play the deck for real before I trully make any changes. Plus I need to keep my home meta in mind as well. Has that sliped your mind? Did you skip that part?
Logged
Harlequin
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1860


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2006, 01:04:19 pm »

Points all well taken.

I admitted have a hard time immagining a meta with 0 workshop decks.  If artifact hate is not on your "to do" Then your legionaires probaly deserve more credit than I am giving them.  In the meta you have described im not sure I see the value of 4 maindeck true believers.   3 maybe, but it seems like a sideboard card.  with so much stompy style aggro, you might want to look at something like Silver knight for the true belivers slot.  Even if pro-red is not useful for the matchup, the first strike will prove to be rather useful.   i think the silver knight would be more useful to you in a greater number of matchups you have described.

I also find it curious that you run karakas if you have no oath in your local meta.
Logged

Member of Team ~ R&D ~
Law
Basic User
**
Posts: 73


LawMag7
View Profile
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2006, 01:24:22 pm »

Powered Erayo control <- that is why I have not taken them out of the deck and left them to site in my type 1 box. Plus the one that plays the Powered G/R madness sometime shows up with a reanimater and he runs legends. Plus the few that ae run in FCG I could deal with.

Lastly they can save my kataki if anything from dieing after damage is on the stack. Old school trick but still one that could creep up.


On the silver knights that could be good. But I was thinking of running 3 Absolute Law in my sidebord. Nothing like a blanket effect to make everything pro red. Might mess with the lavamancers some but its also an idea.

Though just so you know this deck if it does well will hold be untile I am done building the budget oath. Which should just rock the meta. But thats still a while away from being done. Though this is the most talk about the deck then it has had in a very long time. Its been in close to this shape for over a year doing what it was in part to do. Kill workshop and artifact based decks. It might not be as soldid a kill as it could be but if any one ever shows up with a workshop based deck I stand the best chance of killing it.

Thats if the guy that was playing the W/R weeny did not adjust his deck to what I have (I showed him my list).

But I need to get some real game time with it still to get fully up to speed with it. Given that MWS can mess with how the deck can truly flow. Either giving me to much of the cards I need or just screwing me.
Logged
Harlequin
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1860


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2006, 02:07:57 pm »

The kataki Karakas trick is cool.  I didnt even think of that. =P

As far as Absolute law / Silver knight is concerned... I would say That the first strike is actually more useful than the pro-red.  Pro-Red is just bonus unblockablity for Gobs and the like.  First strike will definately help you in any stompy/weenie aggro matches.  So it makes a good maindeck card.
Logged

Member of Team ~ R&D ~
Law
Basic User
**
Posts: 73


LawMag7
View Profile
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2006, 02:14:59 pm »

First strike is the key thing you think will help. Then how about Longbow Archer can also block flying creatures. Plus I have 4 and will not need to get two more.
Logged
49 Cents
Basic User
**
Posts: 591


Von Dutch


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2006, 02:19:09 pm »

Deck Type: Agro countrol
Ruby Red (R/W tempo)
Lands 20

2 Mountain
2 Windswept Heath
2 Plains
4 Plateau
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Karakas

Creatures 18
4 Goblin Legionnaire
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 True Believer
3 Kataki, War's Wage

Spells 22
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Null Rod
3 Magma Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby

Sideboard 15 (this is what I used when I was testing but this as always is really open to change)
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Sacred Ground
4 Erase
3 Rule of Law

I do not like your list. I don't like Null Rod in this deck, because it's a giant Drain target on the draw, and you have no way of protecting it. My team had developed our own list that we like to call 'The Lion Wins Again' (hehe) or simply:

TDC Aggro - Budget deck
// Lands
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Plateau
2 Sacred Foundry
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Mountain

// Creatures
4 Savannah Lions
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Isamaru, Hound of Konda

// Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Shattering Spree

// Sideboard
1 Shattering Spree
2 Sacred Ground / Orim's Chant
4 Lava Dart
4 Seal of Cleansing
4 Red Elemental Blast

We really like this list. It basically comes down to playing beatz for a while, and than burning your opponent to death. The deck is not designed to be broken; it's designed to be consistant. It plays Chalice of the Void because that is our best answer to losing due to random moxes, that powers the opponent to play quick good cards.

One of the cards in this list I haven't seen anywere else yet is Shattering Spree. Spree is a monster, seriously. It can deal with a Chalice=1, or simply to clean up some moxes that slipped under Chalice's radar. It can also simply remove the board against Staxx, which is HUGE. I prefer it over Shaman because moxes can be tapped in respons to a trigger, and because it actually answers against Chalice rather than sitting in your hand.

Lions and Isamaru's are in here because Vintage doesn't play with creatures. The damage they deal is really dependant against the deck your opponent plays. At worst it deals only 2 damage (if you have only one out), but in most cases they deal more like 6-12 damage. Since we attack our opponent's mana with Spree, Chalice, Kataki and Wastelands, we can buy time for out creatures to storm through.

We felt that we didn't need to have Seal maindeck, because one of the matchups it truly shines in (Staxx) is already being taken care of by Spree. Lava Darts are in the SB, but that's a metacall because it does nothing against Oath and Gifts. It really shines against TT Confidant, Other Aggro(-control) decks like Goblins or Fish, etc.

There are 2 extra Plateau's in there, because attacking this deck's manabase is quite pointless and can simply buy you another turn. It might be wrong though, but I want either R or W to be online by turn 1 every time.

The deck plays 4 STP because they are so good against Oath and random Tinker / Colossus. I hardly ever board them out. They simply win against Dragon, and can buy time against Oath. Sure, you give them 11/6 lives but you take a wincondition. A plowed Colossus means they will have to kill with the Tendrils route (or the FlameVault, but there are no people that play with that in Holland), and that means time because you need a lot of mana for that kill.

Finally, I think this deck is simply Fish, but without U. It has about the same amount of answers, but this deck has a clock. If you try the deck, you'll see that burning your opponent out happens. Alot.

The deck is tons of fun. I play games with it between rounds at tourneys all the time since we made the list a couple of weeks ago, and it has beaten many good players.

Greetz,

Hugo
« Last Edit: March 13, 2006, 02:25:50 pm by 49 Cents » Logged

Team TDC: The man with a new idea is a fool. Unless the idea turns out to be a succes.

www.BeNeLegacy.nl - For all your Legacy
Law
Basic User
**
Posts: 73


LawMag7
View Profile
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2006, 02:30:28 pm »

49 Cents that one is all aggro which should just die even in my meta. All creatures should do something more then just beat. They all need a trick something to help you win. Lions just beat well cheep does not do it fast enough. Plus burning the crap out of someone has proven to be a crapy plan. Well unless you can pull 13 damage 1st turn  :lol:. But that trick can be stoped buy a FoW.

Plus I do not like just trying to beat the crap out of them and burning them with out some way of slowing them down past Chalice of the Void.

Ya so they can drain Null Rod they can drain almost everthing in the deck and win from that. Thats if I do not through down something else to mess with there plans next turn.

But that deck looks like its lacking control and the ability to stand up. But thats just me. Plus they are different decks and run as such.
Logged
Harlequin
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1860


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2006, 02:33:42 pm »

At 49c deck, it seems interesting, heavy burn for small creautures and powerfully fragile damagers.  For Law's meta, I wouldnt go with Savanah Lions simply because of the low toughness.  Also it seems a bit heavy on dirrect damage spells Chain lightning + lighting helix seems like overkill on the dirrect damage.

Also dont get me wrong on the pro-red.  It is MAJOR against decks that have burn.  RG Madness and Gobs, means you'll be lovin the pro-red.  Although I could see longbow archers working if you find yourself stareing down alot of hypnotic spectors (another commonly played budget card).  

I think some sort of melding between the two decks would work well.  

Also keep this in mind.  Generally your building a 75 card deck, then picking 15 cards that only help you situationally.  So theres no shame in putting your kataki's or truebelievers on the side so long as silver knight is more usefull in a random matchup.
Logged

Member of Team ~ R&D ~
49 Cents
Basic User
**
Posts: 591


Von Dutch


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2006, 02:47:52 pm »

I guess it's just bad in your meta. But in others, it's really solid.

Chain and Helix aren't overkill, I assure you that. Helix helps against a lot of decks, because getting 3 life is randomly good. It can buy you another turn versus Oath and it helps against Aggro decks.

Quote
Ya so they can drain Null Rod they can drain almost everthing in the deck and win from that.

But Null Rod actually does something that your opponent does not like. They won't Drain a 2cc critter in turn 2, but they will same the counter for STP on Colossus or Null Rod.
Logged

Team TDC: The man with a new idea is a fool. Unless the idea turns out to be a succes.

www.BeNeLegacy.nl - For all your Legacy
Law
Basic User
**
Posts: 73


LawMag7
View Profile
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2006, 02:58:37 pm »

So you solved that. You run nothing that they wont like  :lol:. Smart I would say. (End any bit of messing around there.)

Helix was one of the cards I did a little testing with a while back. Its bonus was just not big enough to stick around. Jet was added after I played against the maker of TMWA on MWS. My deck vs TMWA is about 50/50 those three games. As odd as that sounds thats how it felt. Yes thats when I was running a different card then jet.

Once I added jet though I maxed out the beliver given that having 4 jet did not make much sence. The has been working well on MWS. But its MWS and thats why I need to see how the deck really can play out before I make any changes.
Logged
Harlequin
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1860


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2006, 03:00:21 pm »

Haveing more "Must counter" spells is a good thing, it will draw counters away from creatures and important STPs.   I think the fact that null rod says "counter this or you loose" definately has merit.  Not countering Savana lions is almost can be interpreted as "bad" because its not worth countering.
Logged

Member of Team ~ R&D ~
zeus-online
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 1807


View Profile
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2006, 03:03:29 pm »

Man you guys are posting alot, wanted to reply twice, but had to read new content twice Razz

Anyways,

Cant see any reason for running helix? Magma jet seems like its strictly superior in Type 1....life gain dosnt really help against most decks.

I believe the correct number of mox monkeys are 3:
1) You really do want to draw one fast, it rox against alot of decks.
2) You really dont want to draw a second, as it only beats for 1, which is rather unimpressive.

I must admit that i really dont like chalice in decks that can only cast it with 0 counters. Null rod seems alot stronger!

/Zeus
Logged

The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
49 Cents
Basic User
**
Posts: 591


Von Dutch


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: March 13, 2006, 03:06:47 pm »

So you solved that. You run nothing that they wont like  :lol:. Smart I would say. (End any bit of messing around there.)

How is denying them mana good for them?

You are part right. I play almost no cards that they WANT to counter. But this isn't a bad thing. They won't like to counter a Chalice. They almost CAN'T counter Shattering Spree. They WON'T counter a dog or a cat unless they are really low on life. The won't like to counter a 1cc burnspell, etc. So you can simply deal 10-15 damage with cards they don't want to counter unless it gets critical, and then there counters will get almost useless. So why is this a bad thing? This is strategy my friend.
Logged

Team TDC: The man with a new idea is a fool. Unless the idea turns out to be a succes.

www.BeNeLegacy.nl - For all your Legacy
Law
Basic User
**
Posts: 73


LawMag7
View Profile
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2006, 03:27:46 pm »

49 it all comes down to the fact that I want them to waste there counters. You want them to site there and clog up there hand. Differing ideas on how to run the deck.

You want them to go to sleep while you play.

I want them to wake up and go all crap.

Unlike other decks that try to just say something else. (Like no for Stax, look at this in oath, or stop this in storm combo.) Each deck has a message thats part of the strategy. As much as people no not notice it is there. You make your oppont do serton things based off that message. Each are right to serton people and they play it that way. Thats just something I have noticed over the last 7 years (when I first started).


So making them waste counters and spells trying to stop you = good.
Make them not care can also be good.

Though you must under stand I feel if they woke up and spoted what you where doing they would just stop you. As a matter of fact most of the people I seem to run into in real life and MWS are willing to stop anything so long as its slows or stops your plan.
Logged
Harlequin
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1860


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2006, 07:35:43 am »

Well its not even really that your pulling counters... wich you are.

More importantly your not letting them do stuff.  If a player has 3 open mana, they will often be looking at I'mm either drain the next thing my opponent does, or cast Thirst for knowledge End of turn.  By playing threats your opponent is spending his/her resources defending the board rather than searching or tutoring.  Also every time they force, they also have to pitch a useful card in there hand.  Some cards are more useful than others, but I would rather my opponent is pitching cards to FOW rather than playing them at EOT.
Logged

Member of Team ~ R&D ~
orgcandman
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 552


Providence protects children and idiots

orgcandman
View Profile WWW
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2006, 11:07:09 am »

One thing that's important to remember,they'll be doing this thing commonly referred to as "winning" while you're playing your cards. While savannah lions is efficient, you need to understand, that's ALL it is. It offers no disruption.

Look at the creature package that TMWA offered:

- Artifact hate:
     - Goblin Vandal (4)
     - Hearth Kami   (either 4, or 2 and 2 Heretics)

- Mana Producing:
     - Mishra's Factory (4)

- Clock:
     - Grim Lavamancer     (4)
     - Genju of the Spires (2 or 3)

The total number of utility beats was always 12. The total number of non-utility beats is 6-7. And actually, Mancer counts as utility half the time, meaning it's really closer to 14 and 4-5.

Also, look at the rest of our deck. 12 Board control cards that said "Deals with their permanent"

You have closer to 7 cards that say "Deal with this" and then 4+ cards that say "I hope I dealt with your stuff" which is much different than the control game that TMWA played.

We also had 4 cards main that were conditionally good against the meta. Things like artifact blast provide the same kinds of conditional meta hate.

Just my .02
Logged

Ball and Chain
Quote from: jdizzle
Congrats to the winners, but as we all know, everyone who went to this tournament was a winner
Quote from: iamfishman
Just to clarify...people name Aaron are amazing
pyr0ma5ta
Basic User
**
Posts: 451


More cowbell


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2006, 04:16:58 pm »

I just don't see how 2-ofs and 3-ofs can possibly be correct, in most cases.  In the words of the ever-wise Mike Flores, a finely tuned deck is one with all 1-ofs and 4-ofs.  The 4-ofs are the good cards, the 1-ofs are tutor targets that are good but only in certain situations.  Without tutor power, an aggro deck should have all 4-ofs except very few finishers which can be played in 2 or 3-of.  A deck full of 2-ofs is just too dilute and pretty much shows that you don't know which cards are good and which aren't.

That said, Fireblast seems terrible.  Often you get stuck without 2 mountains you can safely pitch without manascrewing yourself for the next 3 turns, and sometimes your opponent has UU and 3 life, and you can't win the game in this position. Also, Spree is a total house against decks that have targets.  Play it, it's better than Vandal or Hearth Kami.

Edit: Karakas in the main.  Bad.  You play against oath less often than you get randomly wasted by Stax. 
Logged

Team Mishra's Jerkshop: Mess with the best, die like the rest.
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.059 seconds with 20 queries.