Time Walk discusion

[sundering jerk]

I know in a lot of decks, the game plan is different, but I want to talk about time walk. After reading Draven's informative topic on ancestral recall I thought Time Walk needed some attention. The focus of this discussion is when you should counter a time walk, rather then when to play it.

Let us assume you are playing a Mana Drain deck in these examples. Here are some examples although I encourage you to say in general if their is any Questionable time you think you should give up a counter.

Example 1: Your opponent just went first and played mox island time walk, and you have a FoW in an average hand. (In my opinion not a good idea to lose card advantage).

Example 2: You have two Blue open and a mana drain in hand, with a few guns. And your opponent is taped out.

Example 3: You have two Blue open, a FoW, and a mana drain in hand, with a few guns.

Is their a difference in importance wether you're playing a control, aggro, or combo deck?

Tell me what you think, and if their is anything I am missing in my first thread just send me a message and I will add it after this line most likely with a thank you.

[Lightning Dolt]

I myself have been pondering this question too, but to me it seems like it matters what type of deck you are playing against. For example, countering a Time Walk against a Fish player may not be as important as stopping a Stax deck. For the examples below I guess I will have to answer assuming you do not know what type of deck they are playing. Here are my thoughts:

Example 1: Don't counter for a few reasons. The first is the loss of card advantage (unless for some reason you do not need one of the cards in your hand). The more important part is that they may just play the time walk to draw a "better" card than they already have rather than doing a mulligan. I, for one, would not counter.

Example 2: I would counter. Getting the extra mana is always a big help, even though it is only 2 for 2. Also, if your opponent is tapped out (assuming they have more than 2 mana available) odds are they need the time walk draw, gain an extra turn, and put themselves in a better position (i.e. getting their combo off, gumming up the field, or otherwise).

Example 3: Assuming you have more blue cards in your hand to RFG with the FoW other than the mana drain, I think use the FoW. This will leave you the mana drain to use if they attempt to FoW your counter, giving you 5 mana to work with, or you can use the drain to stop whatever they might play next turn. Again, if they are using the time walk at this point in the game it is probably to cast something bigger next turn. Use the drain on that and enjoy the extra mana!

I hope this helps, and I really am interested in seeing what other people think. Here's another example i find interesting and maybe others can answer it.

Example 4: Your opponent plays Time Walk, you have only a FoW and your own Time Walk. Is it better to stop them from gaining an extra turn or better to get you own? I suppose it all depends on your hand at that time, but just thought I would put it out there. Good Luck!

[pyr0ma5ta]

I generally don't counter Time Walk unless if it resolves it will be a total bomb (untap, yawgwill with drain up, game 2?  Or Welder, Time Walk with Slaver in grave and mana to use it)  I would just let it resolve in example 1, because he'll likely just draw a card, play a land, and pass.  I would, however, go for the drain against his walk in examples 2 and 3 if it lets me cast something neat on my turn, say a Thirst or Gifts. 

If I fan a hand that looks like Island, Fetch, Mox, Time Walk, Thirst, Brainstorm, X, I want to go for the turn 1 Time Walk.  Having UU open on turn 1 is really scary, even if you're not holding the Drain.  If you are, congratulations to you for drawing the nuts, but representing the early Drain is presenting a threat that your opponent is forced to play around for the rest of the game.

That being said, holding off on the Time Walk for after a counter war, untapping, possibly with drain mana floating, and winning the game is also a good use of the card.  I tend to burn my Walk quickly, but there is something to be said about holding it for when it will be a bomb.  Thoughts?

[Kowal]

Example 1: Your opponent just went first and played mox island time walk, and you have a FoW in an average hand. (In my opinion not a good idea to lose card advantage).

I'd sooner run Solfatara and Turf Wound than counter this Time Walk.

Example 2: You have two Blue open and a mana drain in hand, with a few guns. And your opponent is taped out.

If it wins you the game, by all means.  Many games are won on the back of being able to get some fat spell off while your opponent is tapped out.  These games are usually treated as "I don't give a rat's ass what you're playing, it could be Cursed Totem for all I care, I just want to win now."  If by "a few guns" you mean things like your own Time Walk, some metagame cards like Rebuild/Rack and Ruin, Imperial Seal, Tendrils, etc, then obviously it's not going to win you the game to get the extra two mana and you should leave it alone.

Example 3: You have two Blue open, a FoW, and a mana drain in hand, with a few guns.

Same answer as above.  Time Walk becomes a must-counter under a few circumstances:
A) Your opponent is going to swing for lethal damage.
B) Your opponent has just played Goblin Welder, and if it becomes active you will lose.
C) Your opponent has a turn-specific effect in play (such as Dark Confidant)
D) Your opponent is bottlenecked with a loaded hand (like, six cards you know are really solid, but they can only play two cards this turn, one of which is Time Walk)

D is the hardest to gauge since the other three are based on board position, but for anybody with any sort of experience behind a Mana Drain oriented deck, it should come as second nature most of the time.  The only other time you should counter Time Walk is if that counter is Mana Drain, and it wins you the game.

Is there a difference in importance whether you're playing a control, aggro, or combo deck?

All of these supertypes follow the rules outlined above.

[Gabethebabe]

Walk is a very good spell in the early game, allowing you to basically have an extra land drop and extend you mana base. In an earlier discussion about the control match it was remarked that s/he who has more mana, has the advantage.

I would quickly Drain an early walk, but it depends greatly on the rest of my hand. Having more countermagic available, if I can make a land drop next turn, if I can do anything with (or even with ) points to draining the Walk.

I would not quickly (never) FoW an early Time Walk.

[Kevin Folinus]

In none of your examples did you say a card in your hand the extra two mana would let you play. It would seem that an early Fact or Fiction/Gifts/Whatever expensive card would be a good thing.

[forests failed you]

Not only is it one of the most broken cards in the game;  But it has the best artwork in the history of the game EVAR!!

I love you Amy Weber.

[Wolven]

I sometimes counter walk in the control mirror to prevent Mana Drain comming online depending on how aggressive my hand is. (IE: Ancestral)

I guess the over-all question you have to ask is if your drain is better then then card they draw and the turn they get. If you have larger worries, or more so specific cards to worry about, it's most likly better to hold it back. If you just want to stall it's probally a safe bet to Drain it. I normally only drain something like that if I'm sitting on Gifts/TFK/FoF. This is, of course, assuming nothing on the board changes anything.

[sundering jerk]

All right!

These post have been good, try to stay away from the obvious though. I was looking more for match up opinions.

Now my next question: Is their a perfect time to play time walk? Do you unleash the power if you have nothing better or do you save it for something?

BTW: Amy Weber is one of the few good old artists

[forests failed you]

Forcing Walk is a bad decision unless you are way way way ahead and going to win next turn, or you are afraid they are going to untap and win the game with mana Drain mana open. 

900thh post

[Harlequin]

In generaly I try to avoid useing it if NONE of the following are true:

#1 - I played a land this turn, and I can play a land next turn.  -- Mana for the win --
#2 - My opponent is close to winning and will need only a turn or two more
#3 - IF it would get countered, I still can drain or force
#4 - I have a top-of-Lib tutor that I can cast this turn
#5 - obviously ... If I win next turn =D

In Oath my rules are much more Strict, I generally wait to cast it for when I can start oathing and/or am in the process of attack.  In the Oath v Oath, Timewalk is one of those cards that can be the gamebreaker.

[b-tings]

I think there's a great deal more to be said for holding Timewalk than the above poster thinks. Simply put, untapping and dropping a land isn't that strong unless it's your second blue one. I can't count the number of times I've lost games I would have won if I had had knowledge of an opponent's Timewalk and played accordingly. While they've gotten less frequent as I've gotten better at reading my opponents, I don't think I can overstate how hard it is play properly when you have one less turn than you think. The more turns an opponent takes to try to set up, the more chances they're given to make these types of mistakes.