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Author Topic: [Article] Magical Cross Training  (Read 3247 times)
benthetenor
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« on: March 15, 2006, 01:54:48 am »

Hey everyone, check it out. This was originally going to be here, but some people told me it was a tad broader than just Vintage Magic, so while it's still free, now it's also available to everyone. Let me know what you think/what else you play/applications you've found in your own training. Thanks!

Ben
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« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2006, 03:33:09 am »

First, I want to say that this article made me think more than anything I've read about magic in some time.  For me, at least, that made it great.  The fact that it promoted a format I enjoy is gravy.

...that doesn't mean I didn't disagree with a lot of its content.

Nit-picking:

Quote
The analogy is apt, as those things necessary to be successful in sport (skill, endurance, creativity) are very much present in Magic, and indeed in many games like it. To anyone who disputes this, I invite you to sit down and play a Grand Prix

The analogy is not apt.  There is a large body of biological research that shows that Bobby Fischer didn't train like Ivan Lendl (for newbs, see: Ernahmngeddon).  I'm not knocking training for mental competition, just the analogy to physical cross-training tactics is obtuse.

Quote
Picking up a different deck has so many benefits that it's almost no wonder that every single top-level player does it.

This is always 'fun'.  It may be helpful for those who get in ruts.  However, if you are in such a rut that you can't optimize your deck of choice (even if it's turbo licid), then you have larger problems than the author is talking about.  I often playtest the topdecks in the format, not because I'm in a rut, but because I want to see, from the first person, how their strategies operate.  This is entirely different from the focus (if not the practice) from what the author is talking about.  In a set format there is usually a top deck and reasonable foils, regardless of your boredome with both.

Quote
and horribly misapply it

He's borrowing from set theory, which does have some application to Mtg, but he's right in his misapplication.  Mathematics help a tremendous amount in Mtg, but don't think it'll come easy, or often.  My experience in T1 is that you win most of your games in T1 through superior information, deck building, and sideboarding, all of which can be done without significant
number crunching.

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Evidence

Quote
it is useful to play formats with a lower cardinality than the one that you normally play

This is one of my favorite recommendations of the article.  I am a cloistered, close-minded, dyed-in-the-wool T1 player.  That being said, I let myself be dragged into drafting, T2, etc when I can.  It certainly helps.  I've seen the results in deckbuilding across a number of instances.  Teamates who dabbled in other formats (or hell, even other games) came back with different and BETTER perspectives on card (resource) interactions.  Explore.

Quote
It's always a treat to watch someone who plays strictly Vintage try his luck in a Sealed Deck or, even better, a Draft event. Mispicks and distorted strategies abound, and then they send creatures into the Red Zone (I can just see the outraged forum responses now…). People, I'm not trying to stir up emotions, nor am I trying to call Vintage players bad, for I am one of you. The fact of the matter is that the combat step is all but non-existent in Vintage. We all started out playing Standard with the kiddies, so at one point we all knew how to attack and block effectively

I have trouble with this statement.  I agree vintage players are bad as a whole, but intelligence is intelligence.  I've seen Matt Snow (a little known T1 player) amble into a draft and OWN because of his analytic abilities.  It's not that the skill set is strictly different, but stupid is as stupid does (contrapositive is often true).

However, I will say that some skills are almost almost mutually exclusive.  Well-learned combat tricks will give you little marginal advantage in a Vintage tourney.  Knowing the dragon stack, or how to attck Stax' prison will.  Don't pretend these RULES of magic are ubiquitously necessary for players.  T1, 1.5, X, 2, L.. skills are a range and your success in your field will be in your ability play your hand (or lawyer your case) depending on your proximity to what's necessary.

Quote
The strength of the deck is in the strategy, which has been around literally since the birth of Magic, so even if the power level of the individual cards isn't quite there, the deck is still solid

I just wanted to mention that since I know Weisman, and I can understand the strategy behind this draft-deck, I appreciate the comparison.  Magic is extremely holistic in that it has a lot that is comparable at some level, but that developing some unifying theory is useless.  This towes a nice line between nostalgia and the contemporary (eternal) card pool.

Quote
Let's be brutally honest here: Vintage players suck

I agree.  What isn't as evident is that they suck for a reason: they don't want to invest time to win.  I've seen 'Vintage' players school seasoned T2, Ext, whatever players because they have huge cocks and can play magic.  While Vintage has gotten much more competitive, it's still the format of the weekend warrior.

On top of that, let's be REALLY honest, magic players suck at their own game.  In general, almost ALL of us.

Quote
improvement is its own reward. It's the same reason why learning can either be fun or drudgery

Especially in the context of the monetary argument put forward by the author (it was useful, but...), many have pointed out that they play the game not for fortune, but for fame (or some reasonable facsimile).  Vintage will always be a game for the idealogue, not the politician.

At its most severe.  2c
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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2006, 09:54:35 am »

GI: If Vintage is for ideologues, what ideology does vintage players promote?

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Methuselahn
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« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2006, 09:58:40 am »

This was a very pleasant read Ben.  Smile

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If you want the selfish answer, there's no money in Vintage. If you take into account travel and accommodations, along with food, then that $300 Mox that you just won has only profited you $150-$200 for an entire day's worth of work.

This quote is a good springboard for what I'd like to reply to. 

I'm having a hard time getting worked up to do some cross training.  The profit is more like 1-2$ (if any) because you have to count all the time for testing, trading, more testing, deck building, and everything else. Why not just skip the tourny and work some overtime at your job instead?  You are at least guaranteed money this way.  So basically, Vintage is for fun because it is not practical to try and make a profit by playing this broken format.  If you disagree, then you are just plain wrong.

You make the analogy to a star quarterback.  It's quite a stretch.  Star quarterbacks have the potential to make loads of money.  They have plenty of incentive for 'unfun' training.  They cannot afford to slip into atrophy, but then again, they are not playing for a measly 350$.  So, they have to cross-train. 

Magic players like myself who play Standard and Limited when they feel like it, (read: do no real research) can't justify putting in all the time and money needed to become good at those activities.  The way I see it, it's like spending X$ and a boatload of time I don't have on Standard in order to raise my Vintage game by a minuscule amount.  Considering the payout for Vintage, it's just not cost effective at all to cross-train.

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improvement is its own reward.
In America, land of the capitalist pig, this phrase rings hollow.   Razz

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MuzzonoAmi
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« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2006, 10:50:37 am »

Ben -

This is the best article I've read in awhile, and alot of rings true. The only real point of disagreement I have with you is that you imply that the average Vintage player sucks MORE than the average player in another format.

GI: If Vintage is for ideologues, what ideology does vintage players promote?

I'm pretty sure that this was a metaphor, Steve.
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« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2006, 11:08:58 am »

Quote
This is the best article I've read in awhile, and alot of rings true. The only real point of disagreement I have with you is that you imply that the average Vintage player sucks MORE than the average player in another format.

What he said.  Vintage players are worse than pro tour players for sure, but not worse than the average magic player.  I'd say a type 1 event is comparable to a PTQ--there will be good players and there will be bad ones.  The winner is good and may be good enough to do decent at a pro-tour or GP, but its less likely than the pros.  Look at GP Philly--there were a few Vintage players there and amateurs took half of the top 8 slots.

The reason there are no amazing Vintage players is if you are that amazing--why not play a format that wins you money?
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« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2006, 12:35:30 pm »

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The reason there are no amazing Vintage players is if you are that amazing--why not play a format that wins you money?

Now i am in no way amazing. But time could be an issue. the average vintage player is a tadd bit olden that the average other farmat player. And unless you are a pro and do nothing else but magic, earning a living actually is a dayjob for many people, not to mention people with actual lives (read family).

The article i really like. Very insightfull, seems i need to be doing something else a bit.
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« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2006, 01:22:22 pm »

Really good article, Ben.  I have to agree with it from my own experiences, too; playing limited and standard will definitely make you think differently about certain cards as well as allowing you a different perspective on some magic theories.
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benthetenor
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« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2006, 02:27:48 pm »

Thank's guys for your feedback. Just a few responses:

Quote
Picking up a different deck has so many benefits that it's almost no wonder that every single top-level player does it.

This is always 'fun'.  It may be helpful for those who get in ruts.  However, if you are in such a rut that you can't optimize your deck of choice (even if it's turbo licid), then you have larger problems than the author is talking about.  I often playtest the topdecks in the format, not because I'm in a rut, but because I want to see, from the first person, how their strategies operate.  This is entirely different from the focus (if not the practice) from what the author is talking about.  In a set format there is usually a top deck and reasonable foils, regardless of your boredome with both.

I'm sorry, but that section of the article had nothing to do with optimizing your deck, nor did it have anything to do with boredom. It was primarily about playskill and a knowledge of strategies. The reasons that you stated for testing other decks are the very same reasons that I gave in the article.

Quote
It's always a treat to watch someone who plays strictly Vintage try his luck in a Sealed Deck or, even better, a Draft event. Mispicks and distorted strategies abound, and then they send creatures into the Red Zone (I can just see the outraged forum responses now…). People, I'm not trying to stir up emotions, nor am I trying to call Vintage players bad, for I am one of you. The fact of the matter is that the combat step is all but non-existent in Vintage. We all started out playing Standard with the kiddies, so at one point we all knew how to attack and block effectively

I have trouble with this statement.  I agree vintage players are bad as a whole, but intelligence is intelligence.  I've seen Matt Snow (a little known T1 player) amble into a draft and OWN because of his analytic abilities.  It's not that the skill set is strictly different, but stupid is as stupid does (contrapositive is often true).

However, I will say that some skills are almost almost mutually exclusive.  Well-learned combat tricks will give you little marginal advantage in a Vintage tourney.  Knowing the dragon stack, or how to attck Stax' prison will.  Don't pretend these RULES of magic are ubiquitously necessary for players.  T1, 1.5, X, 2, L.. skills are a range and your success in your field will be in your ability play your hand (or lawyer your case) depending on your proximity to what's necessary.

By no means did I wish to imply that all Type I players are bad. Several of my teammates who play mostly Vintage Magic are very good players. At the same time, I've watched many, many Vintage specialists attempt to play other formats and fall on their faces. Limited formats are especially difficult to just pick up.

My point is that even if specific examples from formats don't help specific plays across the formats, knowing how to get around combat tricks or knowing how to attack specific decks in Vintage both involve practice with the in depth workings of the stack, which is something that helps play no matter what. Watching for combat tricks may not help you in Vintage, but having practice putting yourself into the position where you can effectively answer those combat tricks, which is something that is vital to success in Limited play, will.


As far as the average player thing, I guess I'm just waiting for a Vintage Pro Tour. I do agree that there are people who suck the same average amounts in other formats. But my biggest question there is, how long have they, on average, been playing Magic? How long have we?

Being a spectacular Magic player may be a function of intelligence, but being a good, even Pro Tour caliber, Magic player is just a function of not making mistakes. The two have some corollary, as it's necessary to be intelligent to some degree to see where you're making mistakes, but it's not a perfect one. In other formats, where the level of competition can be so great that it's already expected that mistakes be all but absent, intelligence and creative play take a much greater role. In our format, simply cutting out the mistakes would yield many, many more wins than being the most creative player.

Quote
The reason there are no amazing Vintage players is if you are that amazing--why not play a format that wins you money?

Now i am in no way amazing. But time could be an issue. the average vintage player is a tadd bit olden that the average other farmat player. And unless you are a pro and do nothing else but magic, earning a living actually is a dayjob for many people, not to mention people with actual lives (read family).

The article i really like. Very insightfull, seems i need to be doing something else a bit.

This is a large reason why I play Vintage and not a money format. I'm trying to concentrate on getting a degree, and while I could very easily be successful on a professional level, it would involve putting in a lot of time that I just don't have right now. It also doesn't help that I'm out of town 8 months out of the year.
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« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2006, 05:52:40 pm »

Being good at any discipline requires a lot of repitition and a lot of practice and study. Vintage players are often not familiar enough with card pools of other formats so we fall flat on our faces drafting or playing standard. I think we perform better in Legacy and extended as many of the cards are staples in Vintage as well.
But yes ... the notion that you cannot make mistakes in Vintage is false. When a format has so many explosive decks it is by collarly more forgiving. Certain combo decks require a higher level of skill but the many of the Vintage decks almost play themselves - I know i'm going to hear arguments now. So yes, mistakes sometimes hurt but I have recovered from play errors many times but just mizing into a win and delaying the end by a turn. In formats where the pros play at much larger venues, I think it far more likely that a play error will end your run into the top eight. So overall I have to agree - the skill level in vintage is behind that of other formats. Where I think we are strong is our communities ability to refine decks and optimize builds - this however is the advantage of the net and a number of very capable teams. .
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