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Author Topic: TSR - Litz Long. The deck that pushes combo to Tier 1 again!  (Read 13081 times)
heiner
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« on: March 16, 2006, 04:36:32 am »

The thread topic may sound bold but I honestly think that the deck I worked on for the last 2 months is the best combo deck currently available. People have been comparing Dark Ritual and Mana Drain to each other concluding that Drain is better because it provides no card disadvantage. Basically I am a fine with this conclusion but this deck will show up all the advantages Ritual has. The key points are that it goes off with only one mana, it goes off now and not later and it provides black mana. I won’t elaborate on this issue any further but instead present you a deck which proves my statement.

I have brought the deck to two bigger tournaments so far. The first one was Iserlohn, Germanys biggest T1 tourny and I missed T8 only by srubbing out a Brainstorm in the deciding game. Another Tournament was Wittlich, >70 players attended and I managed to make T4 after unleashing six turn one kills in the swiss.

The deck is really hard to play as you never just cast a draw seven and then see what happens but you really have to plan out every detail of the turn you are winning on. I won a lot of games with exactly 9 storm, no mana in the pool, one or two life and with threshold in the graveyard. You have to exploit all your available resources to the max and be sure to have some dice in reach. The good thing is that there is only one strategy available so the goal is very focused.

When I started testing Meandeck’s Grim Long I quickly felt that while not being totally broken, Grim Tutor had the potential to be a strong card in Type 1. In testing the deck performed so-so. I really liked the hands containing only black cards like double ritual and a tutor which allowed a quick Y’Will -Tendril’s kill but disliked the draw sevens and the other crap which sometimes won and sometimes not. The first route has the big advantage that you can just calculate your storm and your mana and know whether it will be enough or not. Draw Sevens are always a luck tester.

Other disadvantages were the unstable mana base, few shuffling effects to maximize brainstorms, few disruption and the strong dependence on Dark Ritual. The solution for all these problems is to work with an UB body instead of using five colors. Before examining the card choices in detail here is the list.

TSR - Litz Long

1 Black Lotus
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Memory Jar
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
3 Grim Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Necropotence
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
1 Mind's Desire
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Tinker
1 Windfall/blue card

Lands:
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Underground Sea

Sideboard:

2 Boseju, who shelters all
1 Sundering Titan
1 Duress
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
2 Hurkyl's Recall
6 Meta slots. Candidates are cabal therapy, massacre, blue blast and more bounce.


3 Duress: I do not play the full set as duress sucks against some decks, slows the deck down and 7 disruption slots are simply enough. Force of Will is soo much better as it storms for free and keeps nasty Trinispheres from the table.

4 Cabal Ritual: They really make this deck work. They improve the gold fish speed dramatically, allow for easier first turn Necropotence and with all the fetchlands you easily reach threshold. Sure Ritual is better in most cases but the added speed is golden.

Imperial Seal: Many people think the card is mediocre but it is definitely good enough to be played. The point is that it is not interchangeable with Grim Tutor as the seven tutors played in the deck serve different purposes. Mystical, Vampiric and Seal are used to set up the combo. They can be played first turn and 70% of the time they fetch Black Lotus with 20% going for Ancestral Recall. These tutors have to be played turn one but they are not critical regarding card disadvantage. Grim Tutors are played when you already have won. They either cycle for Lotus if you have a played a Ritual but most of the time fetch Y’Will of course. Demonic Tutor is golden as it can be used for both purposes.

Colossus: Yes another win condition is fine but it can be a dead card in your hand and more important it fizzles much more often than tendrils. It has been raced by FCG, weldered out by stax, plowshared by random.decs and gifts totally laughs about it anyway as it just searches for bounce. Memory Jar is so much better.

Tinker/Jar: This duo is ridiculously powerful and definitely the strongest draw seven in the game. I would never cut it.

Brainstorms: They are so good in this deck it is not even funny. If the opponent plays without Duress try to storm at sorcery speed ASAP and you will be surprised how often the 10 cards in your initial hand are enough to finish the game. Be careful to not play out moxen if you don’t really need them as they are your favourite cards to put back.

Echoing Truth: Only one bounce and then this bad one you may think. Yes, Hurkyls Recall is infinite better than Truth vs. Stax but in my meta it is needed to combat Meddling Mage. In a meta with only few stax decks one bounce is enough.

Tendrils of Agony: Only one Tendrils and no burning wish. As Steve already elaborated on in his Grim Long article I am assured that one is enough.

Mind’s Desire: This card is bad but I haven’t found a better substitute for its slot. I would love to play Brainstorm number five so I tested out Impulse, Strategic Planning but also gifts and I liked none of them. I would prefer another Grim Tutor in its place but I cannot drop the blue count because of FOW.

Windfall: Same thing as above with the difference that this card is even worse. It is nice if you can play it first turn and basically sucks in all other cases. This card has to be cut but I still do not know what for. There is one card I have in mind but it hasn’t been tested thoroughly yet.

Time Walk: In most cases it isn’t great but it is blue and almost never hurts. Just keep thinking you are playing a 59 cards deck. Necro+Walk is huge!

Null Rod and Chalice zero: It appears that the deck is really unimpressed by these cards as it just ramps up storm casting rituals and tutors. Who needs moxes anyway? They just storm for one…

Sideboard:

Boseju/Tinker/Titan is my secret tech vs. control and it has been good to me for now. With all the uncounterable tutors it is easy to accomplish.


Life Loss: The Tutors 3 life loss is few enough to finish most games with more than 10 life points and is no real issue most of the time. However be careful with Necro as you need at least 7 remaining life most of the time to tutor for Y’Will and Tendrils.

Some hints to play the deck: Even if it may seem similar than TPS it plays out totally differnt. The basic core you need are only 3 cards comprised of two Ritual like cards, a tutor and some stuff. Then the idea is to play Ritual, Ritual, Tutor, Stuff, Y'Will, replay Ritual, Ritual, stuff, Tutor, Tendrils. Filling up your graveyard is key to win the matchup vs control. If you can’t win during the first two rounds deplete their hands by playing threads and force them to tutor for FOW early. If both decks are in topdeck mode and the graveyard is full you have good chances to win. Cabal Ritual becomes Black Lotus and you just need to draw into a Grim Tutor most of the time to finish of the game. If opponents let resolve your Tutor and then counter the Black Lotus you are in good position as Lotus feels totally comfortable in the yard and you are two more cards ahead towards threshold.

Matchups:

Control: I have tested about 50 games vs. Different gifts variants against good players and I am ahead by about 10 games. Control can always be a tough matchup if you encounter, a hand containing FOW and double drain/duress but most of the time you can fight your way through. Using Ancestral as a blue Duress is key. I have many things to say about this matchup as I have tested it exhaustively, but will save that for later. Bottomline is control is not my feared matchup.

Stax: I am 40/60 in games vs. Stax. This is not good. I do not exactly know why it is that bad. The mana base is stable with the fetches and the 2 basics, whereas lands are only needed to combat 3 sphere anyway. Stax has many lock components you can simply ignore: These are Smokestack, Tangle Wire and Crucible/Strip. Chalice zero and Null Rod is ok if your hand does not only contain moxen. Chalice one is bad and both spheres are even worse. You cannot win with a sphere on a table, point and it is hard to remove it. You have to establish a mana base to combat it, where this deck is not good at all. Bottomline is that stax will beat you most of the time if it maindecks spheres/3sphere.

FCG, Fish, Aggro and the rest. You win. If your meta consists of at least 30% of these decks take this deck with you.

« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 07:25:36 am by heiner » Logged
Gabethebabe
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2006, 05:52:08 am »

Mind’s Desire: This card is bad but I haven’t found a better substitute for its slot.
It´s not in your list.

You play Echoing Truth as bounce. Chain of Vapour bounces things as well and is a storm enabler. Why not Chain? Because of Chalice=1 ?

Chalice zero and Null Rod is ok if your hand does not only contain moxen. Chalice zero is bad and both spheres are even worse. 
I suppose the second Chalice needs to be "one"
« Last Edit: March 16, 2006, 05:55:28 am by Gabethebabe » Logged
arj
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2006, 06:21:09 am »

This decks looks like a hybrid between TPS and Grim Long. Minds Desire is nuts in TPS so I can't see how cutting it in this deck could be right.
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heiner
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2006, 07:39:04 am »

@gabethebabe: Thanks, i fixed things up. Regarding Chain of Vapor you re exactly right. Chalice for one is the problem which I forgot to mention.

@arj: I looks like a hybrid but plays a lot different. Throw it together and test it out. Desire is not utterly bad and I have won games with it, but it is lousy in topdeck mode and was pitched to FOW more often than actually cast. Windfall though is definitely worse and has to be taken care of beforehand.

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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2006, 07:51:55 am »

I really like the deck and completely agree with you on your analysis of it, Heiner.

I think Windfall is the worst card in your deck for sure, and would gladly run another duress over it.
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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2006, 10:41:39 am »

Since Stax isn't a very good match-up and you don't like Windfall why not replace it with Hurkylls Recall, or Rebuild?
They help against Stax, they pitch to FOW and they ramp up your storm count with a couple of artifacts out. Rebuild costs one more then Hurkylls but then again it bounces all artifacts and it has a different cc then Echoing Truth, which can certainly come in handy vs Chalices.

Hope this helped.
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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2006, 12:22:34 pm »

I agree with Witch King. the Windfall should probably become a rebuild. It helps further with your chalice problem and lets you combo out more easily sometimes. This card is all but immune to chalice. It also helps against spheres (if you can get to four mana?) and with it in your deck you might find yourself playing like Gifts does against Stax (sit on Rebuild while building up resources, then EOT play it, untap, and win) Anyway, the deck looks fun, but I'd be really wary about playing any combo right now, with Stax decks as popular as they are, and every thing else running at least Force of Will and usually Drain or Duress in addition.
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heiner
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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2006, 01:09:37 pm »

Anyway, the deck looks fun, but I'd be really wary about playing any combo right now, with Stax decks as popular as they are, and every thing else running at least Force of Will and usually Drain or Duress in addition.

Try the deck out and you'll be impressed. I have a real good history vs Confidant Gifts sporting 4 Drain, 4 FOW and 3 Duress. It has a 60/40 game vs control which is much stronger than TPS and all other combo decks anyway.
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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2006, 01:21:40 pm »

The deck looks like a competitor. A strong mix of combo and some subtile control elements, combined with your good results, it should warrent some playtesting Smile
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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2006, 02:49:34 pm »

This deck looks a lot like someone took TPS and shoved Grim Tutors and Cabal Rits in it to make it "better". My initial impressions of the deck are the following:

1. You took TPS's stable mana base and made it extremely vulnerable to wasteland. I'm not sure if 1 island and 1 swamp are really gonna be sufficient.

2. I personally think that Windfall is absolute garbage and should be cut. If you cut that and Echoing Truth, you could run Chain of Vapor and Rebuild in the main.

3. Do you really need 8 rituals in this deck. It seems kind of excessive.

I will grant that I may be totally wrong and that my observations are made from experience playing TPS and Grim Long, as opposed to this particular version of the deck.
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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2006, 04:40:15 pm »

This deck looks a lot like someone took TPS and shoved Grim Tutors and Cabal Rits in it to make it "better". My initial impressions of the deck are the following:
One thing is right, I made it better Smile. On the other hand the deck really plays a lot different.

Quote
1. You took TPS's stable mana base and made it extremely vulnerable to wasteland. I'm not sure if 1 island and 1 swamp are really gonna be sufficient.
Its definitely enough as you never need more than two lands in play.
Quote
2. I personally think that Windfall is absolute garbage and should be cut. If you cut that and Echoing Truth, you could run Chain of Vapor and Rebuild in the main.
I really like the idea. Even if two bounces are not needed, this configuration makes it possible to kick the suboptimal Truth and play the much better Chain of Vapor and Hurkyls Recall.
Quote
3. Do you really need 8 rituals in this deck. It seems kind of excessive.
Yes they are because of the strategy is so dramatically different from TPS. This deck plays out much more like traditional long (they subsititute the LEDs) than like TPS. You want to chain Rituals and Tutors ASAP. Keep in mind that a single cabal ritual with threshold is almost enough to setup the 7 mana you need to go into combo mode.

I really recommend everybody to test this out to feel its power. It will take 20 games till you run it smoothly but then you will start to win game after game. Its hell a fun too!
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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2006, 06:41:21 pm »

I can't believe that mind's desire is bad here....desire for 5+ should just win the game in most cases with this deck.  Even with the exception of all of the "oops, I win" hands that desire gives you you're also missing out on the 3 mana floating, draw7, lotus, desire wins.  Not playing desire is like not playing bargain except that bargain can be countered and desire can't.
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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2006, 07:03:16 pm »

I like this deck, and it seems very good and certainly worth testing, and I highly advocate the chain of vapor and hurkyls/rebuild switch from windfall/echoing truth. Anyways, I have a few questions about this deck, and how it relates to other storm decks. First off all, I understand that this deck plays mostly like a long variant, so what exactly do you feel are the biggest advantages to playing this? Force of will is good, but how frequently have you just been able to work through it?
Comparing this to TPS doesn't seem right, as you have said multiple times, but I still would like to know exactly how you decided to incorperate elements from that deck. Most people say TPS is pretty sub-par, so how did you decide to revive using forces in storm combo?
Also, you seem very ritual dependent, so what happens if they actually decide to force your yawg will.? Most long decks can win without will, but the way you describe this, you are left with a card or two in hand, stranded in topdeck mode. Is there a good or easy (at least as good as any other storm deck..) way to recover form that?
I am very interested in seeing this deck develop, and possibly playing it once I get mroe grim tutors, but I would like to know some more specifics comparing this directly to other storm decks, esp. Grimlong and the new TT Confidant.
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« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2006, 01:44:30 am »

One thing I see as a problem is the increase in the amount of Extracts being played.
Oath has 4 in sideboard and many other decks have been using them as well and obviously they work very well when you just have one win condition.
As for Windfall, yes it is horible in this build.
Cut it for either.....
+1 Duress
+1 Chain of Vapor
+1 Burning Wish

With wish you could fetch another Tendrils or Balance for a mean Mind Twist. But basically it serves as a backup.
I'll have to test the deck and I've been playtesting with Grim Long for a long time now and gotten to really get used to it. I have better game vs Stax since I run more artifact bounce and.
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« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2006, 02:04:24 am »

I would honestly put in another Tendrils for the Windfall, IMHO.

For that point alone - Extracts are being run in SBs, especially in Oath (4!).  I couldn't imagine playing Combo in my meta (>40% Oath), simply because everyone down here has 4+ Extract.  I expect Meandeck to be running Extracts in their SB for Storm Combo at Richmond, because they will be playing blue, and they will be playing combo.
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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2006, 02:43:23 am »

Is it just me or has this list been out there for months??? I saw a list within 3 cards of this published only weeks after hearing that grim tutor was being unrestricted.

Regardless it is a fun deck, but I feel that its very very vulnerable to stax that ends the game with a sphere of resistance... or at least slows the game down long enough to establish some form of a lock.

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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2006, 06:35:47 am »

First off all, I understand that this deck plays mostly like a long variant, so what exactly do you feel are the biggest advantages to playing this?
I think that there are two different types of combo decks in vintage. The ones that play no disruption an avaerage win turn 1/2 and the ones that play disruption (around 8 cards) and win turn 3 or later. The first section belcher for example has a significant advantage over the last one. Turn 3 wins suck as your opponent has mana drain up no matter whether you go first or not. Turn one wins are perfect as your opponent won't have mana drain up and turn 2 kills are golden if you go first. Turn 1/2 wins play around opponents disruption and therefore can rely on fewer own disruption. Of course you all know this and the bottomline is: This deck has an average goldfish rate of turn two while maintaining 7 disruption spells. No other combo deck can offer this.

Quote
Force of will is good, but how frequently have you just been able to work through it?
FOW is great and I use it all the time. It double storms (with the help of the opponent) and Ive had several turn one kills with FOW backup in tournaments. This deck is capable of working through FOW, Duress, Drain hands, as it plays so many threads and disruption.

Quote
Also, you seem very ritual dependent, so what happens if they actually decide to force your yawg will.? Most long decks can win without will, but the way you describe this, you are left with a card or two in hand, stranded in topdeck mode. Is there a good or easy (at least as good as any other storm deck..) way to recover form that?
I cant remember the last game where my Will was countered. If you play it right it shouldt happen. If you know your opponent has any more counterspells you tutor for a medium sized thread like Ancestral before.
To the recovering issue: This deck is a Topdeck whore. If both decks depleted their hands your graveyard is full of Rituals and tutors and his is loaded with counterspells which means you have a significant advantage. Litz Long develops such a pressure in the first 2 rounds that the opponent is forced to invest all availlable ressources in stopping you like scrolling for FOW or similar. He will pitch his gifts which kills his mid game. Even if your opponent will stop your initial rush he can't develop by casting moxen and spells. This is the opening window. If anybody is interested I have a detailed tournament report from Iserlohn (in german though) where I fight through triple disruption hands twice. Just give me a PM.


@2ndTendrils/Wish: I have never ever missed the second tendrils. Ok one thing that sucks is having tendrils and tinker in your hand as you cant fetch Jar. This has been the only problem and I lost like one or two games out of a hundred because of it. Burning Wish is definitely no option as it is slow, clunky (even gifts plays main Tendrils by now) and RED.

@Extract: Yes I have read the oath starcity article yesterday and was a little bit shocked Smile I think the Sideboard will be the place to combat this issue and I think I allready found a solution for it. (Which also owns the stax matchup by the way.)

@Whatever Works: You probably saw my list on morphling.de. It was also released on our open Team Forum already.
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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2006, 09:46:02 am »

A single Death Wish in the maindeck fixes the Extract problem without sacrificing flexibility.  It shouldn't even affect the sideboard because it only needs to find the win condition if it's already been removed.
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2006, 11:28:02 pm »

Thank you for answering my questions, and I see the idea of tutoring for a mid threat threat, I don't play enough storm to really think of those types of plays... Thanks for the insight, and I am gonna test with this now!
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« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2006, 12:04:18 pm »

-2 Underground Sea
+2 Flooded Strand/Bloodstained Mire

This will improve your Stax matchup considerably.  You are playing a two color combo deck, giving you access to potentially the best mana base in the format.  Why would you play 4 non-basics?

I would also find room for another basic land and perhaps even more fetches, and find room for Rebuild/Hurkyl's.  If you do that your Stax game will go from a bad matchup to a pretty good one in a hurry.

Quote
Also, you seem very ritual dependent, so what happens if they actually decide to force your yawg will.?
Necropotence and Bargain are also usually enough to win you the game.  I think of this kind of deck as a "three-bomb" deck.  If you stop Will, Necro, and Bargain you probably win, but with all the tutoring and disruption those three bombs play like many more.
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« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2006, 12:08:16 pm »

GWS has been playing a deck pretty similar to this for the past few months and it is 6/7 in 1/2 power tournament splits.  Its currently being played in Richmond.  It will be released tomorrow.

There are 3 reasons why you aren't beating Stax. 1 is the lack of fetches and basics.  2 is not enough lands period.  The third is the lack of Hurkyl's, Chain, and Rebuild. 
« Last Edit: March 18, 2006, 12:30:42 pm by Moxlotus » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2006, 04:42:42 pm »

@puck: Actually I never thought of going down with Useas and replacing them for fetchies. It seems like a brilliant idea to me as I always love it to have fetchies in the yard as you can replay them in your will turn and they add to threshold. I will try 2 flooded strand in place of two Useas. 4 lands + 6 fetchies sounds like complete nonsense but it could work. I m still convinced that 2 basics are enough you dont need more than two lands in play, thats it. The problem with 3sphere for example is that you dont draw into 3 lands quick enough and not that you draw into too much non basics.

I am currently running Chain of Vapor in place of Windfall and exchanged Truth for a Hurkyls. I dont wont to go further up with bouncers as they generally suck, if you dont need to bounce anything.

Another intersting card that is beeing tested is quicken Smile and it looks promising. Be prepared!
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« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2006, 05:01:06 pm »

The fetches over duals idea comes straight from the GWS deck (Eric Becker calls it "the Becker mana base"), so I can't take credit for it.  It works because, as you say, you don't actually need that many lands in play to win.

As for the issue of increasing your total number of lands (more basics, more fetches, or the like), I think it is probably a tradeoff.  The GWS build was tested and proven in a very Stax heavy environment, so an extra 2-3 lands makes sense.  If you see more control, the better topdecks of a more mana light build might be more attractive.
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« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2006, 11:37:56 am »

@GWS: I am really interested in the IT list, as I also tested 2 Intuition in the blue slots and wasn't impressed with it too much. The main disadvantage is its high casting cost including blue. I liked the Intuition for tripple Cabal Ritual but found that it is too expensive for a setup tutor.
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« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2006, 03:21:20 am »

I am really surprised that everybody keeps on talking about IT, without a word on this deck. I feel Litz Long (btw what does this name mean??) funnier and simplier to play, with a really high turn 1-2 kill pourcentage. The goal is straightforward, you just have to resolve a Yawgwin in turn one or two to win. No need to wait for the end of turn to cast whatever, you already have all you want in your first hand (Dark Ritual x 4, Cabal Ritual  x 4), with so many tutors (7) to play them again for the win. This deck is very aggressive, instead of IT which is more retroactive, and the risks you take by playing a Draw7 will always be rewarded as you only need mana, tutor or disruption, and that's all you have in the deck.

I found Mind's Desire not necessary in this deck, as the CC is very heavy, and you would always prefer having a tutor or mana to get your Yawgwin. Kill turn 1 and 2 are really commun, but they're essentially based on a construction of black manas (rituals and rituals and rituals...), unless you get BLotus or luck, 2 blue mana may be hard to get...

I would personnally add a red splash, for 2 cards: Wheel of Fortune and Recoup (instead of Mind's Desire and Windfall).
First turn, you always prefer a WoF instead of Timetwister because it loads you yard while giving you new mana sources. Memory JAr is great, but with only one ToA, you may have to handle more than expected to the ToA-in-hand-case. And you need Draw7 to fill your hand and go off for the lethal Tendrils. Recoup is great too, because once Yagwin is in the yard, the only solution for your to play it again would be Timetwister. Same thing for ToA in the yard, without Yawgin, you have no possibility to win. Recoup allows you to play again Draw7 and Yagwin, for one red. I don't think it would destroy the mana base stability, if you only change 2 Underground Sea for 1 Badlands and 1 Volcanic Island.

Then I would prefer Chain of Vapor instead of Echoing Truth, for obvious reasons: one mana, you can play it on your moxes for the storms. CotV for 1 is not game, even if it hurts.

I really think people should give a chance to this deck, really performant!
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Gabethebabe
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« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2006, 10:48:26 am »

(btw what does this name mean??)
Heiner´s last name is Litz Smile
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Tobi
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« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2006, 02:23:47 pm »

I am really surprised that everybody keeps on talking about IT, without a word on this deck.

I totally agree.

I found Mind's Desire not necessary in this deck, as the CC is very heavy, and you would always prefer having a tutor or mana to get your Yawgwin. Kill turn 1 and 2 are really commun, but they're essentially based on a construction of black manas (rituals and rituals and rituals...), unless you get BLotus or luck, 2 blue mana may be hard to get...

Mind's Desire is a killer against Control, and with the threat density in this deck even a low Desire can be game winning.

I would personnally add a red splash, for 2 cards: Wheel of Fortune and Recoup (instead of Mind's Desire and Windfall).
First turn, you always prefer a WoF instead of Timetwister because it loads you yard while giving you new mana sources. Memory JAr is great, but with only one ToA, you may have to handle more than expected to the ToA-in-hand-case. And you need Draw7 to fill your hand and go off for the lethal Tendrils. Recoup is great too, because once Yagwin is in the yard, the only solution for your to play it again would be Timetwister. Same thing for ToA in the yard, without Yawgin, you have no possibility to win. Recoup allows you to play again Draw7 and Yagwin, for one red. I don't think it would destroy the mana base stability, if you only change 2 Underground Sea for 1 Badlands and 1 Volcanic Island.

The problem here is the count of blue cards to support Force of Will. 16 blue cards is a minimum.

Then I would prefer Chain of Vapor instead of Echoing Truth, for obvious reasons: one mana, you can play it on your moxes for the storms. CotV for 1 is not game, even if it hurts.

Chain of Vapor is strong, but Echoing Truth handles Chalice 1 and Meddling Mages. Normally, a combination of Chain of Vapor and Hurkyl's Recall is quite good, but if you have only one bounce slot, Echoing Truth is the right decision.
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« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2006, 03:15:38 am »

I've had problems with three cards in the deck, LED, Imperial Seal and Time Walk. LED has horrible synergy with Force of Will, and the 8 rituals are more than sufficient to support first and second turn wins with Yawgmoth's Will. I replaced it with the 4th Grim Tutor and have improved my gold fish percentages over all, which leads me to believe the card has no justification for being in the deck.  Imperial Seal telegraphing Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus and forcing the mana base to break a fetch land for either Underground Sea (Wasteland) or Swamp (No U Mana) on the first turn have all been issues for me. Is any one else unsatisfied with this card, or is it just me? Time Walk is sub par, it's rare that it will allow you to play a second land, reduces storm by forcing you to play a mox first turn and confuses mulligans. I think it should be replaced with another bounce spell like Hurkyl's Recall.

I'd like to get people's take on side boarding with this deck, besides bringing in Hurkyl's Recall for Duress against Stax I haven't come up with anything stellar to do with the sb. Any thoughts?

It's a really cool deck to play, I think it has more game versus Stax than Grim Long thanks to Force of Will and the manabase while retaining its edge versus control.
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Gabethebabe
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« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2006, 03:57:00 am »

Maybe the mana base should be brought towards the manabase of IT. More fetches and less Seas. Fetches are good in this deck. Brainstorms and Cabal Ritual, to name the obvious synergies. It will improve you matchup against workshops. Underground Seas are not what you want in turn 1-2.

EDIT: BTW have you ever tried Meditate in the Windfal/Blue card slot?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2006, 04:13:17 am by Gabethebabe » Logged
nicofromtokyo
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« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2006, 05:19:09 am »

 
Quote
Imperial Seal telegraphing Ancestral Recall, Black Lotus and forcing the mana base to break a fetch land for either Underground Sea (Wasteland) or Swamp (No U Mana) on the first turn have all been issues for me. Is any one else unsatisfied with this card, or is it just me? Time

I personnally like Imperial Seal, because with a Brainstorm in the hand, it a Demonic Tutor for UB.
Time Walk is a cantrip which untaps the lands, I don't see good enough reasons to cut it. You can trash it to FoW or Necro if you don't need it.
I think LED is absolutly needed in a Red splashed version with Recoup, but in a UB version where you have plenty of rituals, its utility may be contested. In case you cut it, I would prefer replacing it by a card that makes me draw rather than another Grim Tutor. Impulse? Peer through depths?

The reason this deck doesn't do any results in any tornaments is because nobody plays it, or because it's just awful in the real life? Razz
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