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Author Topic: A hard moral question  (Read 5909 times)
sundering jerk
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« on: March 16, 2006, 03:40:15 pm »

After reading JuggernautGO's article of morality, I'd like to ask a serious question.

Is it moral to scout???

And personally, do you scout. Be honest!

Personally I do not. Not only is it unethical to me, but it just isn't fun. And that's what magic is really about, it's a game to be enjoyed.
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« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2006, 03:49:17 pm »

I find it hard not to; especially if my round is over quickly. Though I'm not a shark about it. I play it casually, both before the event and during rounds. Mostly though, I like to watch other matches as they play out, just for the fun of it, and if I happen to get paired against one of those people, so be it.

I'm certainly not going to sit in the corner with earplugs on and my eyes closed waiting for pairings to be posted.

Edit - Assuming I have time, the first thing I do after a round is de-sideboard, check my sleeves, and shuffle my deck a little bit. I hate feeling pressured to shuffle my ass off at the beginning of a round. If I have some free time after that, then I'll look around and talk to folks.
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« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2006, 03:50:11 pm »

I don't but it isn't for moral reasons.  I'm too lazy to do it, and I'd rather spend my time at tournaments catching up with people I haven't seen since the last one (which for me can be months at a time).

Scouting isn't dishonest, unless you actually pick up a closed deckbox and riffle through it - even worse, while the owner is in front of you objecting.  Whenever I go to a tournament I know the surprise factor of whatever I'm playing (which is usually advertised by the GIANT Psychatog on my playmat) will wear off after game one and everyone around me has seen me kill or be killed.
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« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2006, 04:06:37 pm »

If my round is over very quick, than I usually walk around to see what the name players are playing. Or I have people do it for me, and around. This can be very helpfull, so I don't know why you shouldn't do it.
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« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2006, 04:28:23 pm »

I also walk around and watch people after my match is over. I never do it specifically to analyze their deck, but more to see how everyone is playing as a whole. Also, the odds of me playing these people isn't very good because I try not to watch games at the tables surrounding me. That and I'm no good at scouting anyways because I have the most horrible memory!
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« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2006, 05:01:31 pm »

Quote
Whenever I go to a tournament I know the surprise factor of whatever I'm playing (which is usually advertised by the GIANT Psychatog on my playmat) will wear off after game one and everyone around me has seen me kill or be killed.

The surprise of me playing koboldclamp also wears off after one round...

Oh, and I don't scout. And not because it is immoral, which I think it isn't, but because I'd rather enjoy watching an interesting game, trade some stuff or smash face (or be smashed) with type 4 while waiting.
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« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2006, 05:01:53 pm »

Absolutely.
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« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2006, 05:32:57 pm »

When I said scouting i didn't mean watching another match that looks interesting. I meant when people take last years top 20 or big names, find them and make a list
I have people do it for me, and around. This can be very helpfull, so I don't know why you shouldn't do it.
I especially think it's wrong when people do this in teams
this hurts really fun decks like cobalt tendrils





Absolutely.
what did you mean by that??
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« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2006, 06:22:07 pm »

I scout constantly.  I have no problems with that.  I also don't have problems with people looking over my shoulder to see how I play my hands, but I usually keep my hands face down on the table with the cards memorized for that particular reason, ESPECIALLY when bluffing.
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« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2006, 06:50:31 pm »

This isn't a hard question.  The answer is yes.
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« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2006, 06:58:40 pm »

What exactly is the argument that scouting is unethical?
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« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2006, 07:08:56 pm »

The only way scouting could be considered immoral is if you believe that information gathering is unethical.  Last I checked, acquiring knowledge isn't unethical as long as the manner in which it is gathered is morally sound, so I don't see why scouting should be any different.
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« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2006, 07:18:43 pm »

Short answer: maybe.

Long answer: ethical judgements are always on a personal basis. Whether or not it's moral is up for you to decide. None of us can tell you an absolute answer, as not all of us have the same ethical beliefs.

Scouting is legal. At PT: HNL, the DQs weren't for scouting, as some of the rumours had said. There are, of course, conditions upon that. Your friend can't just open their SB, look at it, and tell you in the middle of a round. You aren't allowed to get outside assistance during a game or match. You aren't allowed any outside notes during a game or match.

Strictly from a "coming to win" perspective, scouting isn't just ethically good, it's demanded of you. Knowledge is power, and any edge that you can get when coming to win is part of the ethical good. Even casual games support scouting. When you play against someone a lot, you tend to know the contents of their deck, and you play appropriately to what you know that they have.

Your objections that "scouting makes my deck bad" doesn't hold up to actual experiences. I've found that when I've run with a techy unknown deck, everyone knows about it in short order, and all of my tricks are discovered, so my techy POS deck just becomes a POS. It's not that they scouted, it's that my deck was, in fact, a POS, and sekrit tech wasn't enough to make it not suck.

I'm friends with Rich 'TheAtogLord' Shay, and I've discussed specifics of his deck (Slaver) on the car ride up to an event. Even his allowing other people to scout his deck or having knowledge of what he's playing hasn't stopped him from winning. You have no real argument for that position. Scouting doesn't make your deck bad, it's the fact that your deck is, in fact, bad.

Tournaments are built around several premises; one of which is that players are playing to win. As such, the rules and policies of tournaments are skewed towards allowing people to show up, sit down, play, and win. They don't prohibit you from playing a fun deck, but they also don't prohibit other people from sitting down across from you, and handing you your ass because your deck doesn't have what it takes to stand up in a tournament.
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« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2006, 07:36:16 pm »

The information gained from team scouting is no different than information gained from having a better understanding of the metagame, having a better understanding of the format, or even training with a team.  It's all information.  The more people involved and the more information, the better.  It shouldn't matter (ethically) when you obtain the information.

I think the reason this sounds like a morally ambiguous question is that many of us are too lazy (or unskilled) to get good scouting information, therefore we are jealous that someone else gets it. 

Personally, I would prefer to sit down with an opponent and not know what he's playing, or he know what I'm playing, but it aint gonna happen.

JB
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« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2006, 10:16:10 pm »

There's two types of scouting. Moral scouting includes asking someone what they're playing, and watching other games in progress. I think this is not only fine but should be encouraged.

The gray area is tricking someone into revealing their information - this is a cutthroat tactic, and while some people enjoy that level of competition, it would be atrocious behavior at a FNM or similar. Recall the FCG fiasco just prior to and during PT: New Orleans (aka PT: Tinker).

And immoral scouting involves spying on people's private testing sessions, hacking their team boards, and so on.
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« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2006, 10:24:43 am »

WOW. Never thought I was someone with high moral standards. You kids are ruthless, but hey I guess it's legal. Anyway here's to everyone who spends the extra time catching up with people, trading, or just plain relaxing before a match, hope you guys enjoy scouting.
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« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2006, 11:27:14 am »

Quote from: Sundering Jerk
You kids are ruthless, but hey I guess it's legal.

Other than the board-hacking "scouting" that Matt mentions, what moral imperative is involved here? Gaining information from walking around a tournament hall isn't that much different than reading online an M:tG online forum, for instance. I just don't see it.

But the kind of "scouting" de Rosa talks about in this article is clearly wrong:

"Last week, Jeff Cunningham had the good fortune to somehow have been given moderator powers on this server by mistake. He went out of his way to log on my team members accounts and watch games between my team members. As part of watching these games he shouldn't have watched, was able to see and steal all of the decks we were working on."

Quote from: Matt
Recall the FCG fiasco just prior to and during PT: New Orleans (aka PT: Tinker).

This was from the period when I had quit playing Magic. Could you explain the "fiasco?"
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« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2006, 11:35:29 am »

Quote from: Sundering Jerk
You kids are ruthless, but hey I guess it's legal.

Other than the board-hacking "scouting" that Matt mentions, what moral imperative is involved here? Gaining information from walking around a tournament hall isn't that much different than reading online an M:tG online forum, for instance. I just don't see it.
Walking in a tournament gives you specific information. Reading a metagame article shows you what they expect, not what is.

Quote
Quote from: Matt
Recall the FCG fiasco just prior to and during PT: New Orleans (aka PT: Tinker).

This was from the period when I had quit playing Magic. Could you explain the "fiasco?"
Basically, YMG had the "Food Chain in Goblins" tech for Extended. Someone got access to it, leaked it, and everyone was upset. Rob wrote an article on it, and there was a big mess.
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« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2006, 01:53:23 pm »

I remember at GenCon Worlds this year Steverino walking around with a note pad taking notes on all of the good players decks (because he had the BYes). 

Personally, scouting is a job for Barns.  I never scout, because I'd rather be outside smoking and talking.  I just ask other people what my opponent's are playing, and they tell me.
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« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2006, 01:55:38 pm »

You're definitely going to know what the people in the game next to you are playing. There's no way to avoid seeing other players' decks and surprise tech and so on. You might argue that there's a moral difference between what is essentially forced upon you by the logistical reality of tournament structure VS. actively scouting, but the "knowing what is" argument is a total dead-end.

AFAIK, Your Move Games intentionally "leaked" their FCG deck to get people to play it, while they held their superior Tinker decks secret. Actively trying to water down the strength of the competition. It's a very cutthroat tactic, but this was at the highest levels of competition, and I don't find it hard to imagine that some people would enjoy playing in a setting where such vicious behavior was acceptable.
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« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2006, 02:10:34 pm »

Quote from: Apollyon
Walking in a tournament gives you specific information. Reading a metagame article shows you what they expect, not what is.

My point was the question of morality here. Perhaps my analogy could have been more apt -- but that's beside the point.
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« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2006, 03:03:16 pm »

Cards like Cabal Therapy and Meddling Mage encourage scouting; a blind Therapy may as well be a crummy Peek and a 'mage call with no insight is probably just a bear.  We try and avoid this kind of inconsistency at all costs - if we knew exactly how the nickel would land, we'd all play Fiery Gambit.dec and take infinite turns with Stitch in Time.  We don't expect that kind of advanced information from such cards, but we do with Therapy.  That's sort of the goal of deckbuilding, isn't it?  To remove a card from the vacuum of "what CARDNAME does on its own" and make the card better by feeding it the appropriate resource?  It just so happens that this method of improving your cards doesn't involve putting other cards in your deck that functionally contribute to that end.
Anyway, what exactly does one do about scouting?  Assemble blinders between play fields?  Designate areas that players must attend after the outcome of the match is decided?  Prevent people from watching exciting matches?  The fact is, there's very little that one can do about it.  Playtesting is more of the same; people (generally) bring only Good Decks to compete with, and you'd do well to play against those Good Decks with one of your own.  A certain amount of card variance occurs, but in the end you still need to understand your matchups or no amount of scouting means anything.
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« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2006, 04:24:49 pm »

Scouting is and always will be part of magic.
The opinions will always be different about it, some will be in favor, others will hate your guts for it when you start looking at their game-play.

I always look around to see what the better players I know are playing.  If I get paired against them, I use the knowledge I have, including my knowledge on what deck they are playing.  I do not find that immoral, I find this to be the way nature meant it to be.

I said scouting will always be part of magic, but this can be broadened to any competitive sport.  All competitive sports have above average players/teams, and I'll bet my arse of that the tactical minds behind those good players/teams know exactly what the common tactics of the other good teams are, and they make sure that their player/team knows exactly how to prepare for that.

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« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2006, 06:14:39 pm »


Just out of curiosity, what do people think about swapping decklists prior to the top 8 to try and mitigate the advantages that teams and scouting can bring? This has been used at some big T1 events - should it become standard practice?
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« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2006, 06:47:36 pm »


Just out of curiosity, what do people think about swapping decklists prior to the top 8 to try and mitigate the advantages that teams and scouting can bring? This has been used at some big T1 events - should it become standard practice?

Absolutely not. It is not the responsibility of the people running the tournament to solve inequity. If it was, they would also put everyone on a team, break up Meandeck, Shortbus, Reflection, ICBM, the GG's, Ogre, etc. and make the power level on each team consistent, require mandatory practice, etc.

The goal is not to force people to start on an equal footing. The point is to require skilled players to win. This is why the banned list and restricted lists exist. It is not just to keep diversity, but to prevent the formats from being coinflips. Wizards wants the game to be about who is better. Gaining information makes your decisions better, but not always right. Indeed, the prepared players would still have an advantage, as they would simply look for the two or three cards that were innovations out of any given deck, and then work it around in their heads.

The idea is to require skill to be involved. Scouting is a skill. Research is a skill. Playtesting is a skill. Topdecking is not a skill, but it is inevitable. Lucksack is not a skill, but it is inevitable.

To the extent possible, I think that we should make Vintage about who is better, not about holding people's hands and coddling them.

You want a team to scout? Organize a temp team. I've done it before. It's surprisingly effective. There is little impetus to be dishonest, as it is solely a temporary alliance and it will gain you little to lie about someone else's deck, unless they're your pal.

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« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2006, 07:09:42 pm »


Woah, the melodrama.

They publish decklists at PTs before the t8 - would you also disagree with that practice?

While scouting takes a bit of planning and effort, its a bit of an exaggeration to claim that leveling the field by minimizing the advantage gained by scouting is "holding people's hands and coddling them". 

Quote
The goal is not to force people to start on an equal footing. The point is to require skilled players to win.

This is distortion. Players do not start off on equal footing at the start of the t8 - there is already a disparity in the skill levels and in deck construction/metagaming. We are only focusing on minimizing the disadvantage of not being on a team or not having the opportunity to scout due to the length of your matches. While you can try to make arrangements with others regarding scouting, its not always feasible or possible, so to claim it as a "skill" is not entirely accurate.
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« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2006, 04:01:12 pm »

I tend to show up at tournaments (if I show up at all) about 5 minutes before deck registration ends. And since usually, I'd have to not only write down but sometimes also come up with my decklist, that doesn't leave a lot of time for scouting. So: no.

More generally, my ethical opinion on scouting as a phenomenon: whatever floats your boat. You're going down whether you know what I'm playing or not.
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« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2006, 05:03:27 am »

You're going down whether you know what I'm playing or not.

That is unless God is Black, of course  Wink
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« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2006, 05:36:02 am »

This makes me think of what Smmenen wrote in the other moral thread:

The ultimate goal in magic is NOT to win.  It is to acquire the top prize.  Winning is the best way to do that.

One of the things that makes you win is knowing what your opponents play so you can anticipate to wards that. Therefor, scouting is perfectly fine imo.

P.S. This Spell Check _really_ sucks... it adds words instead of replacing them?  Confused
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« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2006, 11:54:26 pm »

i usually just walk around and watch people play. i like being around the game so i dont think its really unethical to just watch people playing.
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