Clash of the Golems... Bosh VS Karn in Stax

[vartemis]

In stax, either Uba (sideboard) or traditional, what are the pros and cons of each?  Karn is a lot easier to hardcast, and his ability is cheaper.  Bosh is a bigger beatstick and has trample.  Karn can turn your assortment of permanents into an army and nuke opposing moxes, but bosh can just chuck your artifacts at your opponent's dome or creatures and skip the attack phase entirely.  I did a search for the two, and there are post that say they both suck, but the fail to say why, and yet both are played in stax in some decklists.  If they suck, why do people use them and do well?  Is it a case of good players playing with bad cards, or is there conflicting opinions on their validity in stax?

If I was going to use one or the other, which one is better, or which situations are each better suited for?

j

[Evenpence]

Karn is 20x better, and will never be disputed as the king of all that is amazing and holy when it comes to Stax.

He makes your Smokestacks into 4/4s, and your crucibles into 3/3s, and is a 0/8 wall for aggro to get over.  Moreover, he wins in a turn or two when you swing with him and all your locks FTW.

Bosh sucks.

[Pitlord]

I personally believe that neither is really that terrific. Karn is the "classic" kill creature for stax, but he has fallen out of favor with me as of late. First, he does only cost 5, and he chumps fish all day long, but mana cost isn't a huge factor in my decision, becuase stax should focus on locking the game first, then killing the opponent.

But neither of these golems seems very good at this point in time, because of one card, null rod. Null rod stops both of these guys dead, giving you either a chump wall for 5, or an overcosted 6/7. Neither of these sound optimal.

Karn is better if you insist on running one of the two though. He makes an army for you, multiple times, and his ability is cheap. He can also function as your third mox monkey, eating 0-drops for 1. Overall though, I would just use 7/10 and trisk as my kills, possibly with a duplicant in there as well.   My $.02.

[sean1i0]

Bosh isn't worth it at all in any deck, but especially not stax because his ability is intensive in non-workshop mana.  In other decks he's just suboptimal.  Period.

Karn, however, is amazing.  As Evenpence has stated, he wins either the turn he comes down or the turn after that.  As far as I'm concerned, null rod doesn't bother me at all.  The two decks that run null rod are uba stax and fish.  Against uba stax that has a null rod in play he can still beat for 4 or, in the case of duplicant being in play, block; if I'm tinkering though, and they have a null rod out, you can be damn sure that I'm not getting karn unless I'm somehow sure that I can get rid of that null rod.  Against fish, he's still a 0/8 blocker; that'll buy you enough time to get out a creature that isn't just a blocker.  Of course this is all assuming it's the time in the game when you want a creature anyway (a.k.a. not when your opponent could just duplicant or swords to plowshares it).

[Revvik]

Karn is a lock component, Bosh is not.  Why run cards that don't further the lock?

[AngryPheldagrif]

I personally believe that neither is really that terrific. Karn is the "classic" kill creature for stax, but he has fallen out of favor with me as of late. First, he does only cost 5, and he chumps fish all day long, but mana cost isn't a huge factor in my decision, becuase stax should focus on locking the game first, then killing the opponent.

But neither of these golems seems very good at this point in time, because of one card, null rod. Null rod stops both of these guys dead, giving you either a chump wall for 5, or an overcosted 6/7. Neither of these sound optimal.

Karn is better if you insist on running one of the two though. He makes an army for you, multiple times, and his ability is cheap. He can also function as your third mox monkey, eating 0-drops for 1. Overall though, I would just use 7/10 and trisk as my kills, possibly with a duplicant in there as well.   My $.02.

Are you kidding me? Karn is insane. If it weren't a legend I'd be running 3-4 in Claw in a second. He's already reasonably costed at a 4/4 for 5, and can block anything short of an Angel or Colossus, Titan included. So what if he can't kill creatures himself. That's what your 4/4 Smokestacks and 3/3 Crucibles are for. The fact that he's also a Mox Monkey is just gravy. What doesn't he do? On the rare occasion I lose to Stax, it's to Karn. Almost without exception.

And yeah, Bosh is crap, but I don't think we need a lengthy discussion to figure out that a guy who costs 3 more to play and 3 more per activation is bad. Why Bosh, wouldn't Memnarch be at least as good if not better? For the same activation he steals your opponents artifacts, and for a good chunk of extra blue he just wins.

[Akuma]

Bosh does suck for the most part. The only time I ever used him was in a semi-casual Welder Mud type of deck with Metalworkers + Staff as a "kill you now" piece. Fun as hell...

[Pitlord]

I agree with you Carp, Karn is awesome, in aggro. In aggro you like playing things that are big for 5, and him animating whatever you have laying around is definitly awesome. (I hear gilded lotus doing 5 a turn is pretty solid). 

But pertaining to stax, I personally don't care for karn. He is klunky, somewhat slow, and does animate things, but how well? He costs 1 to use, which is actually somewhat of a strain on 5c stax's mana base. I don't know much about uba stax, but in 5c stax (I play a list similar to Roland's latest), I know that an extra non-shop mana or 2 a turn isn't always easy to do. I want to be spending my mana casting more lock parts, not swinging, hoping to race. In 5c stax at least, I would rather play an almost insta-win, like 7/10, or a huge board swing, like trisk. Karn in 5c staxis ineficient, and doesn't really have a place anymore. Karn will only win the game for me when I could just as easily swing with welder for lethal once I have enough mana to use him effectivly ever turn, and him swinging for 4 isn't a huge deal either.

I am unable to fairly judge his place in uba-stax however. I haven't done much testing with uba, being as my funds are tight. I can see how, in a deck that has a huge concentration of lock parts can use Karn very well. In uba you caould have a pretty decent lock down, play Karn, and swing for lethal in a turn or two.

IMO, the final verdict on Karn comes down to exactly what kind of deck you plan on playing, (aggro, 5c stax, ubastax), your metagame (lot's of null rod fish?), and your playstyle. I prefer to just tinker out a win now, not a golem who could win the game in a few turns.

[Evenpence]

But pertaining to stax, I personally don't care for karn. He is klunky, somewhat slow, and does animate things, but how well? He costs 1 to use, which is actually somewhat of a strain on 5c stax's mana base.

You don't have to activate his ability if you don't want to.  He's 5 for a 4/4, which is fine for 5c's mana base.  As for the activation cost, you run NINE artifact mana sources, in addition to 12-14 lands which are not Mishra's Workshop, including Tolarian Academy!  He could not pick a deck that would better suit him, aside Ubastax w/ no null rods.

I don't know much about uba stax, but in 5c stax (I play a list similar to Roland's latest), I know that an extra non-shop mana or 2 a turn isn't always easy to do. I want to be spending my mana casting more lock parts, not swinging, hoping to race.

You're getting Ubastax and 5c Stax confused.

Karn in 5c staxis ineficient, and doesn't really have a place anymore.

...Karn is HUGE in 5c Stax.  Karn will never get cut in that deck, EVER, because he wins the game and is an answer to aggro at the same time.

In 5c stax at least, I would rather play an almost insta-win, like 7/10, or a huge board swing, like trisk.

Karn is simply better than Titan, because he actually can win you the game the turn he comes into play.  If he doesn't, he almost always wins you the game on the turn after.  Titan requires a FOUR turn requirement to kill someone.

That said, I honestly don't think you have a full understanding of Stax as an archetype, or 5c Stax as a deck, like many.  If you want to talk about Ubastax or 5c Stax, and the differences between them, there's already a thread started about that in Basic User Community (I'm pretty sure), and I'd be happy to talk to you (and anyone on this thread) further through PMs.

[Pitlord]

I am not saying karn is always wrong, I just feel that I would rather play something a little more disruptive. If I am casting Karn, with enough mana and artifacts to animate to just win the game, I should be in a decent enough position to win with just about anything. 7/10 is usually a turn or two slower of a clock, but he also wrecks mana bases, further disrupting the oponent which can turn a match around.
There are times when I would play karn though. If you play in a meta where there are lots of fish decks, especially those that don't play null rod, karn is fantastic. He can block fish and your lock pieces will be bigger than their dorks. But if expect to see a lot null rod, or decks like oath where you can't really just play karn early and hope to swing for lethal, then I wouldn't play him.

BTW, the above meta, with lot's of null rod and oath both, is what I have to deal, which probably greatly affects my view on karn, but saying that I am unfamiliar with my favorite deck that I have played for about the last year, just because I like another kill condition, is kind of harsh...

[PipOC]

If I am casting Karn, with enough mana and artifacts to animate to just win the game, I should be in a decent enough position to win with just about anything.

But if you don't win the game that turn, he is a 4/4 mox monkey for 5, who will likely win the game next turn, or seal it up tight for a couple mana, after nuking your opponents moxen.  Far sooner than titan would have if you needed to find 3 extra mana to cast him.

7/10 is usually a turn or two slower of a clock, but he also wrecks mana bases, further disrupting the oponent which can turn a match around.

You seem to be forgetting that Karn does this too.  He eats moxen.

[LotusHead]

Karn is 20x better, and will never be disputed as the king of all that is amazing and holy when it comes to Stax.

He makes your Smokestacks into 4/4s, and your crucibles into 3/3s, and is a 0/8 wall for aggro to get over.  Moreover, he wins in a turn or two when you swing with him and all your locks FTW.

Bosh sucks.

AND Karn exists on Colorless Mana to screw opponent.

If Karn hits the board, either you are winning, or your opponent is losing.

But feel free to come up with 3R-Sac a Permanent(artifact?) to get direct damage.

What is this, Channel Fireball?

[mattdeballer]

bosh SUCKS!! karn wins in two or three turns while bosh takes multiple turns to do so. bosh has practically no use as a control piece while karn kills stuff and makes your artifacts into beatsticks.

[warble]

The reason to use Bosh would be if you are running an insane amount of beaters and have tweaked your deck to (for some insane reason) provide buttloads of non-workshop mana.  How you'll find a way to fit all that non-workshop colorless mana in your deck is beyond me.  That would be why Karn rules and Bosh sucks.  If Bosh had an activation cost of 2 or something, sure he's phat, but he doesn't, so he's not.  Karn is grrrrrrrrreat as a win condition + mana denial mechanism, and does funky tricks, so as a one-of in Stax he makes perfect sense.  He is not the strongest lock mechanism as he does only do mana denial, but the stax mirror sometimes has to power through getting capped and havnig enough beaters to do that is one strong reason to advocate Karn in stax.  Personally, I'd play him because the win-now thing is one aspect of stax that I find scary (and therefore use).  Sometimes you can't get the hard lock, but you can still win.