Artifact That Destroys Enchantments

[Evenpence]

I'm pissed off that red can't kill enchantments, and there are absolutely NO ARTIFACTS aside Elf Replica (which requires 1G) that are able to do so.

SO:

Artifact Which Destroys Enchantments
3
Artifact
2, sacrifice:  Destroy target enchantment.

Or,

Land Which Destroys Enchantments
Land
T, sacrifice:  Destroy target enchantment.

or

Land Which Destroys Enchantments no. 2
Land
T:  Add 1 to your mana pool.
2, T, sacrifice this:  Destroy target enchantment.

I actually can't find a land or an artifact to destroy another target artifact for only colorless mana as well, although Disk does destroy ALL artifacts.  We all know about lands that can kill lands, and there's even ark of blight.

[Ephraim]

I'm pissed off that you think red should be able to destroy enchantments.  It already nails creatures, artifacts, and lands.  Enchantments aren't its thing.  Wizards has kept it that way for a reason.  They would never print these cards and neither should we.

[Evenpence]

Blue can destroy lands via Ark of Blight, Strip Mine, Wasteland, etc.  They can also destroy all permanents via Nevinyrall's Disk, and also bounce permanents.

Enchantments are the untouched permanent of Magic by Artifacts, and Lands, and there's no logical reason for this.

[Polynomial P]

Disk destroys enchantments, so does engineered explosives, plague boiler, and oblivion stone.

[Evenpence]

Yeah, but not targetted.  Disk was a bad example to use by me.  My apologies.  I want targetted enchantment removal.

Technically Decimate, which is Red AND Green, can target an enchantment to destroy it, but it's not mono-red by any means.  I understand that colors don't get things, like red can't destroy enchantments, black has a really hard time removing artifacts or enchantments (Phyrexian Tribute, anyone?), and blue can't kill stuff period generally (except for stuff like old Char), but there's usually an exception to be made in all cases.

Hull Breach is the same way, RG.  Thunderscape Battlemage also needs a green mana to destroy enchantments.

Frankly, I'm a little peeved that Enchantments have made it this far without targetted removal from absolutely colorless sources, of which, there are currently ZERO except for Elf Replica, which requires green mana to use it's ability.

[Polynomial P]

Is there any targetted artifact destruction from a colorless source?

[Evenpence]

I actually can't find a land or an artifact to destroy another target artifact for only colorless mana as well, although Disk does destroy ALL artifacts.  We all know about lands that can kill lands, and there's even ark of blight.

Goblin Replica kills artifacts, but it requires red mana as well.  I think this should be changed too, and we should have artifacts destroying artifacts.

Tower of the Magistrate gives stuff protection from artifacts, but doesn't destroy artifacts.  Lands which kill artifacts are cool in my book too, although that seems really weird.  It would have to have a really high cost of doing such too.  Like, 5, T, sac:  Kill an artifact.  Then again, the artifact that kills artifacts would be the same way, just like Ark of Blight is overcosted to kill lands.

THERE IS, however, ENCHANTMENTS KILLING ENCHANTMENTS.  And they're all 2W.

Arenson's Aura
W, Sacrifice an enchantment: Destroy target enchantment.
3UU: Counter target enchantment spell.

Aura Fracture
Sacrifice a land: Destroy target enchantment.

Tattoo Ward
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 and has protection from enchantments. This effect doesn’t remove Tattoo Ward.
Sacrifice Tattoo Ward: Destroy target enchantment.

Teferi's Care
(exact same thing as Arenson's Aura)

[Polynomial P]

No we shouldnt. The color pie is valuable and it gives flavorful advantages and disadvantages for playing a particular color. If you dont like being killed by enchantments then play white or green. Mistakes in the colorwheel were made early on, like psyonic blast and blue pingers, but wizards never made the mistake of printing a colorless targetted artifact or enchantment destruction because it is out of flavor with the game. That is part of the game, as it was designed, from the beginning.

[Gort32]

Anarchy kills pretty much any enchantment that Red cares about

[Evenpence]

I don't think so.  I believe the game should always have exceptions.  What do you have to say to Phyrexian Tribute?  Was that a mistake as well?  I really don't think it was.

As for destroying enchantments, check this out:

There are THIRTY FOUR tournament legal cards in the HISTORY OF MAGIC to read "destroy target enchantment."

"Destroy target creature" returns 53 results, "destroy target artifact" returns 85 results, and "destroy target land" returns 48 results.

Now, we know there are tons of cards that say "destoy target nonblack creature" (37 in fact) and whatnot, but not many cards do not say "destroy target nonwhite enchantment" (0, in fact).  We should have an enchantment block instead of an artifact block, like Urza's Saga without the absurd brokenness.

Anarchy kills pretty much any enchantment that Red cares about

Not douse, but that's a good point, that red CAN destroy enchantments, albeit not targetting them.  There's not even any red spell that even targets an enchantment.

It seems that only Elf Replica and Skull of Orm can even TARGET enchantments, though, as well.  Zero lands can target enchantments.

Ten enchantments can target artifacts, though, including Mind Over Matter.

[Polynomial P]

Phyrexian Tribute (and Gate to Phyrexia) do things slightly outside of what Black normally does, but still fits with the theme of Black. Black trades something for power...and in this case creatures for power. Read this from Card of the Day on wizards site:

"Barter in Blood    Card of the Day - Thursday, March 16, 2006
Mirrodin uncommon. Sometimes opposite colors, for opposite reasons, end up getting similar abilities. In White's philosophy, wiping out creatures on both sides of the table is about fairness and balance. In Black's philosophy, it shows willingness to sacrifice one's own minions in the pursuit of destroying one's enemies (IE "power at any cost"). While White is the king of wiping out creatures on both sides of the table (see Wrath of God and its many variants), Black also gets this ability from time to time. However, because Black is only second best at this ability, there is usually some restriction attached, such as hitting only a limited number of creatures, or requiring more Swamps to kill larger creatures."

Phyrexian tribute is 2 creatures and a card and alot of mana (at least 3) to kill 1 stinkin' artifct. Thats alot different than a 1 for 1 that you have proposed. Black doesnt care about the color wheel provided there are severe drawbacks. Sacking two creatures seem like a pretty big drawback.

[PucktheCat]

Anarchy kills pretty much any enchantment that Red cares about

Not Oath of Druids.

Disk, Powder Keg, Engineered Explosives.  That actually seems like a lot of ways to kill enchantments, all of them fairly efficient too.  Keg and Explosives may not be targeted, but you can usually pick what you want to die.

Of course they don't work under Null Rod.  Perhaps that's the real problem.

[Evenpence]

Phyrexian tribute is 2 creatures and a card and alot of mana (at least 3) to kill 1 stinkin' artifct. Thats alot different than a 1 for 1 that you have proposed. Black doesnt care about the color wheel provided there are severe drawbacks. Sacking two creatures seem like a pretty big drawback.

So you're saying that something fairer would be to make a card that reads:

3B
Each Player sacrifices two enchantments.

Or:

4B
Each Player sacrifices two artifacts.

No, because there would be virtually no drawback.  Barter in Blood is completely different from targetted removal.  Phyrexian Tribute is a HORRIBLE card, but I'm making the point that cards exist outside of the color wheel.  You have to sacrifice alot in black to destroy an artifact.  Let's do the same thing with red for enchantments.

What should it be:  As an additional cost to play this spell, sacrifice two enchantments:  Destroy target enchantment?  No, we can't have that...

I'm saying an ARTIFACT or a LAND should be able to TARGET an enchantment, not red.  Giving red the ability to destroy an enchantment goes against the color wheel, which I'm all for up-holding, and like it very much.

Of course they don't work under Null Rod.  Perhaps that's the real problem.

Neither does THIS:

Artifact Which Destroys Enchantments
3
Artifact
2, sacrifice:  Destroy target enchantment.

[Polynomial P]

No. Read the quote Evenpence. "It shows willingness to sacrifice one's own minions in the pursuit of destroying one's enemies (IE "power at any cost")."

That is the drawback in Barter in Blood and in Phyrexian tribute and in Gate to Phyrexia. Sacking Creatures to do a job. That is in the color wheel of black. Yeah, Tribute is a horrible card and that is the point. You would have to make such a horrible card for red to kill artifacts that it would be completely unplayable.

I'm saying an ARTIFACT or a LAND should be able to TARGET an enchantment, not red. Giving red the ability to destroy an enchantment goes against the color wheel, which I'm all for up-holding, and like it very much.

Oh really?

I'm pissed off that red can't kill enchantments, and there are absolutely NO ARTIFACTS aside Elf Replica (which requires 1G) that are able to do so.

[Evenpence]

I meant red, black, artifacts, lands, etc when I said red in the first line of this thread.  The general point that I was trying to get across was that Enchantments cannot be destroyed easily without going to extraordinary means to take care of them.

Read:

Enchantments are the untouched permanent of Magic by Artifacts, and Lands, and there's no logical reason for this.

I didn't even mention red in there, and I posted no original red card in my suggestion for an enchantment-destroying permanent.  I was trying to get the point across that black and red simply can't destroy enchantments.

It doesn't piss me off that red can't destroy artifacts easily, it's the fact that they A) can't destroy them at ALL, even with an absolutely horrible card that will never see play on any kind of level, even in casual games (see Phyrexian Tribute).  And B) Enchantments aren't destroyed easily by ANYTHING that's good at doing other stuff too, save Mortify and a few other cards (Thunderscape Battlemage).  I was very pleased to see Mortify, to say the least.  However, enchantments still sit as King MC Hammer, and cards NOT in green and white need to be made to deal with crap.  White can currently take out everything but lands (wait a minute, actually I seem to recall a 3W sorcery that did something like that...uhh, I dunno, hmm).  But red, black, and blue can't do anything against enchantments.  Why exactly is this permanent, above all others, unreachable unless you have white or green in your deck?

No other permanent suffers from that same loss.  White can target destroy creatures just as well as red and black can (reprisal, etc), and white can also destroy artifacts just as well as red and green.  Blue doesn't get destruction, which is fine by everyone.

Every color can take out artifacts, save blue.  Only TWO colors can take out enchantments, however, unless they're red and you have BEB or something, obviously.

Find me a black card that can target destroy an enchantment (using only black mana obviously, not Quagmire Druid as he requires green, as Thunderscape Battlemage can destroy an enchantment when he comes into play), and maybe I'll listen to your argument about how black doesn't care about the color wheel, which by the way, is bull.

[Polynomial P]

To my knowledge there is no way for black to destroy a target enchantment once in play. It doesnt change the fact that Black is willing to sacrifice its available resources to accomplish a particular goal.

Heck, that isnt entirely my claim as I got it off Wizards website.

[Evenpence]

I still think it's bull.    Black should definitely have a way to get rid of enchantments then, even if it is saccing two artifacts and paying an enormous amount of mana to do so.

[Polynomial P]

It should sac creatures, not artifacts.

[Evenpence]

It should sac creatures, not artifacts.

I figured a change of pace for black would be nice.

[Matt]

This cannot happen, for reasons Ephraim already mentioned. If one color could do everything, there'd be no point in playing anything else, because the game already penalizes you for running extra colors. Disk was a mistake, REB was a mistake, Anarchy was a mistake. Possibly even Apocalypse was a mistake.

[PucktheCat]

With Plague Boiler and Oblivion Stone printed so recently, I don't see how you can say that Nevy's Disk is a color wheel issue.  It may be undercosted a bit, but it's pretty clear that board sweeping is within artifact's abilities.

It seems to me that Wizards has maintained something close to a brighline rule: artifacts can destroy enchantments as part of sweeping the whole board, but any kind of more controlled or targeted destruction requires colored mana (even if an artifact does it).  I don't see why that should change.

[Godder]

I'm of the opinion that Ark of Blight was a mistake, and I note that the only lands that can destroy other lands are Strip Mine, Wasteland and Dust Bowl, none of which are recent cards. If an artifact is made that can destroy enchantments specifically, or a Vindicate artifact, say, it would need to be costed somewhere in the range of Planar Portal or Jayemdae Tome.

[asmoranomardicodais]

Alright, so I'm pissed that blue doesn't ever get targeted creature removal. Or white never gets discard. Or green never can counter things. Why can't we make an artifact that does that? Its because each is supposed to have a glaring weakness, thats why the game encourages double-color deck, to offset each colors disadvantages. Each color is supposed to have blaring problems, that the other colors can make up for:

Blue-Can't destroy anything, weak creatures. Best at stopping spells.

Green-Can't touch instants or sorceries, basically has to let them fly by unharmed. Best at creatures.

Red-Can't destroy enchantments, can't deal with big toughness. Best at dealing with small creatures, and directly attacking opponent.

Black- Doesn't get the best anything (though everything with a cost), doesn't touch enchantments, has trouble with big groups. All around, not best at anything, better than average spells

White-Tough to kill creatures unevenally, doesn't get the best anything, but black focuses on spells, and white focuses on creatures. All around, not best at anything, better than average creatures.   

Artifacts make these weaknesses less obvious, by highlighting things that all colors should be able to do badly, like kill things, or sweep the board, or mana fix. But they do not let blue kill things, or green effect spells, or let black deal with groups, at least not at a huge price.

Also, philosophically, it makes sense that red, and to a degree black, can't deal with enchantments. Red is interested in the here and now, the material world. suffice to say, Descarte was not red. Red can't deal with what it can't see, and red is a complete materialist, denying any abstract entities. All of reds spells have to do with emotions (that one can see the effects of), or natural events (that are blindingly obvious to see). Red doesn't like to make believe in things that don't exist, like enchantments.

Black, on the other hand, can't deal with enchantments, because enchantments are the magic world's version of promises and agreements. Black doesn't follow those, black doesnt think their any need for them, so black doesn't deal with them. Black only deals with things that threaten it, not with made up promises that bind people to a code of conduct.

As such, artifacts that deal with enchantments would allow black and red to go philosophically against their core views, somthing that should not happen, at least not at a price. If you want enchantment destruction in red, look to amulet of unmaking (or whatever its called, from mirage). There is the amount of targeted enchantment removal red should be allowed.

[Norm4eva]

Actually, Red does have a means of dealing with enchantments, it just does it in a very Red way...

Aura Barbs
2R

Instant - Arcane

Each enchantment deals 2 damage to its controller, then each Aura attached to a creature deals 2 damage to the creature it’s attached to.

To be honest, I don't think that artifacts SHOULD want to kill enchantments.  Why?  Artifacts and enchantments both represent artificial creation, artificial energy, basically they are both crafted out of nothingness and set to perform a function.  Most of the artifact cards that can deal with enchantments do it conditionally (ie if the CMC is right, Culling Scales and Engineered Explosives) or globally (Disk, Ob. Stone).  Most of the time this is incredibly indirect destruction in lieu of 'destroy all nonland permanents' so it's not really right to lump enchantment destruction in with it in the strictest sense.  There are few exceptions; Elf Replica targets but must use Green to do so and Pyramids only destroys Auras attached to lands (for 8, whee).  I'm not certain that Pyramids establishes a precedent for exploring that design space.

[Marco]

This is a design space I rather enjoy exploring (designing cards that do something a colour shouldn't be able to do). I understand and respect the colour wheel, but I still miss some of the old school Magic cards that are outside of the colour wheel. I do acknowledge that the cards originally presented by Evenpence are much too efficient at killing a target enchantment for colourless mana.

I recently suggested this in another thread:

Card Name
R
Sorcery
Target player sacrifices a nonland permanent. Then that permanent's controller may pay 1. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.

It's not hard to snag an enchantment if your opponent is not playing with creatures or artifacts (the highly played, super pwerful all land and enchantments deck, I know). You may not snag the enchantment you want, but how many people have multiple enchantments in play (other than Enchantress decks)? And, if your opponent pays 1 you can pay 1 and get another chance...

Just to throw out some other ideas (but not necessarily advocate them):

Card Name
1W
Instant
You may discard a Mountain card rather than pay Card Name's mana cost.
Destroy target enchantment.

Card Name
1W
Instant
You may pay 2RR rather than pay Card Name's mana cost.
Destroy target enchantment.

Card Name
2
Artifact
Players can't play enchantments' activated abilities.

As a post script, my red card Atomize deals with enchantments if you combo it with That Which Was Taken...

Edit: Aura Barbs is pretty sweet (and red). How about an Ancient Runes for enchantments?

Card Name
2R
Enchantment
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, Card Name deals damage to that player equal to the number of enchantments he or she controls.

(Blue got both Energy Flux and Aura Flux...)

[Anusien]

Artifacts killing enchantments doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of flavor.  Artifacts are material constructs that are sometimes imbued with magic.  Enchantments are pure magic that affects the natural order of things in an area.  The only way this would work would be something like:
2, Tap, Sacrifice <this>: Destroy target enchantment that would have been printed as an artifact had equipment existed back then.

I seem to think, whether I read it somewhere or not, that enchantments are supposed to be hard to kill.  Most really really really game-swinging effects, playable or not, are huge and enchantments.  Something like Mindslaver is an artifact, but Island Sanctuary, Moat, Aether Storm, Humility, Opalescence, Form of the Dragon, Zur's Weirding, stuff like that.

[Harlequin]

2, Tap, Sacrifice <this>: Destroy target enchantment that would have been printed as an artifact had equipment existed back then.

Classic.

But anyway, I like that there is a realative Higherarchy to "Disruptablity" among perminants.

Super easily killed: Artifact creatures, Artifact lands
Rather easily killed: Creatures
Fairly easilly killed: Artifacts, Non-Basic Lands
Rather Difficult to kill: Enchantments
Very Difficult to kill: Basic Lands

This means that Given a choice between two cards that do roughly the same thing ... like Karn vrs March of the Machines, one is easier to play, and easier to kill.  the other is harder to play, but is more likely to stick around after you play it.
Or like, Oath of Druids and Proteous Staff.  Or, Culling Scales vrs Drop of Honey.  These are all terrible examples, I'm sure better ones exist but I cant really think of any really good ones.

Think of this... Goblin welder could have been a blue card (built as a wizard).  There are plenty of blue examples of artifact manipulating creatures and abilities.  Magus of the Unseen, Reconstruction, Transmute Artifact ... Even Tinker from the same block.  If welder was blue, T1 would basically be 95% blue decks.  After welder, red picked up cards like Trash for Treasure, Slobad, etc .. and blue grew out of the artifact manipulation roll.  (athought the kept cards like Reshape, and Fabricate).  I kinda forget my point... but it generally worked its way around to haveing one color do too much does not promote a healthy, diverse, meta ... as Matt pointed out.

[dandan]

In the past artifacts have had abilities that were previously limited to certain colours but those that were correctly costed cost more than the equivalent spells in the colours that specialise in that ability. If we take the Desert Twister benchmark (3 mana more than the cost in the correct colours for being out of sync with the colour pie, card is so expensive it doesn't see play except in casual and not much there), I think we could make an Artifact that costs 4 + 2, sac to activate to pop an Enchantment. It could even CIP tapped to give it that Disk feel.

Alternatively make a Red card

Heat Enchantment
1R
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant Enchantment
Heat artifact deals 1 damage to enchanted Enchantment's controller at the beginning of his or her upkeep, whenever it is activated and whenever it attacks or blocks.
Not only mirages shimmer in the heat

(Edit - corrected the above idea to make it affect Enchantments!)

[Evenpence]

So,

Really Overcosted Artifact That Destroys Enchantments
4
Artifact
Really Overcosted Artifact That Destroys Enchantments comes into play tapped.
2, T:  Destroy Target Enchantment

I would also disagree with the list above.  Destroying Enchantments is so much harder than destroying basic lands.  Think of all the cards that we have to destroy lands.  Stone Rain, Rain of Tears, Sinkhole, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc.

Very few cards destroy enchantments, but if they do, they're in green or white, period.

EDIT:  Because White and Green seem to be real angry at enchantments, does that seem to make Enchantments Black somehow?  Why not give Black a SUPER CRAZY costed Enchantment that destroys enchantments in the next Enchantment block?

Like,
BBBBBBBB
BBBB:  Destroy Target Enchantment

[dandan]

Overcosted? It is far easier for Red or Black to use than existing anti-Enchantment stuff and in some formats that could be dropped on turn 1 and activated on turn 2.

My point was that abilities that 'belong' to certain colours should only be made available to other colours in artifact form if the cost is significantly higher than an equivalent spell in the 'correct' colour - think Flying Artifact creature for example. In addition, making a mechanical construct that can disrupt a permanent effect constructed from pure Magic is pretty clearly a difficult task.

As I mentioned, (and gave a example of) Red and Black could deal with Enchantments in very ways suited to their colours. Black could make the Enchantment's controller pay life or sacrifice the Enchantment, Red could damage the Enchantment wielder (destroying the source of the annoyance is a very Red way of dealing with problems).