Double top 4 at Richmond with I.T.

[Moxlotus]

I'm agreeing with JDizzle.  If you add red, you probably should just play GrimLong.  The stable mana base is the decks biggest asset.

[Gabethebabe]

I´m going to try this deck in the weekend. So I had it sink into me last night. It´s a pity I can´t see the primer before actually playing the deck, so I´ll have to use my own intuition instead.

Couple of things.
LED and Walk didn´t make the cut? How bad were they?

With 8 fetches it is relatively easy to add one Badlands and a Recoup, but I see that you´ve already answered that question - depends on the number of Wastes you see.

Why three Tendrils? In what cases would you board in the third? I understand three is a good number with Intuition, but I reckon you normally would intuition for mana or for 3 Tutors and maybe even for three bombs. Sometimes you want to Intuition for Three Tendrils?

[Moxlotus]

Against control a good strategy is to mini-tendrils for like 10-16 (that is, unless you play against Demars apparently  ).  The second and third (and 4th if its there) are there along with Confidants to ensure you can finish them.

[heiner]

Anyways, now that we are past that, what do you guys think of the deck?

As you probably know I started the litzlong thread http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27574.0 in the open forum which discusses a deck pretty similar to yours. The basic ideas (compared to Meandecks Grim Long) are the same:
- more disruption
- better mana base
- reliance of tutors instead of other bomb spells (draw7, desire...) which fizzle in about 20% of the time.

So on to your deck:

-mana base: I think you run too much lands. I think you should definitely stay below 13 lands as you never need more than 1/2 land. You get slowed down and your overall card quality is increased significantly. I would suggest: -2 land, +2 cabal ritua. I have incorporated your idea of running a lot more fetchies than normal lands, which is genious I think.

-Intuition: I was also testing this and didn't like it too much. The only advantage over Grim Tutor is that it creates more storm, as you have two more spells to replay in your graveyard. However storm is never the problem, most of the time the only question is whether you can get enough mana BEFORE Y'Will. Intuition almost seems like a win more card as if you are able to play it before Y'Will you have enough mana to win anyway. Intuition requires blue so chaining only black spells is not possible which normaly means that you need two lands in play and it nets -1 mana (intuition for 3 dark ritual), grim nets you at least 0 mana (lotus). Furthermore it doesnt allow you to get WIll. LitzLong plays most of its game like this: land, imperial seal/vamp/demonic for lotus. Untap. lotus, ritual, randomX, grim, Will, lotus, ritual, randomX, grim, tendrils, whereas randomX is some more mana or a brainstorm which will find you some more mana.
Intuition cant replace grim or vamp/seal/demonic in this example. I what cases do you think Intuition is strictly better than another black tutor?
If running Intuition, dont you think its a good idea to add a third cabal ritual as the chances are high that you gain threshold after intuition + 2 cabal go into the graveyard which means that you do not loose any mana. (cabal nets 3 with threshold)

-Disruption: Remand is a really nice idea and apparently you liked it a lot but is that much disruption really needed? I think that bombs >> disruption as they have to be handled by control equally but win the game if opponents disruption is down. I found that 7 disruption is simply enough.

-Perplex: This card is shit IMHO. Your tutors NEED to find both Will and LOTUS.

-Bounce: I think two are enough. Why do you prefere Rebuild over Hurkyls? Have you ever used the cycling abiity?

[Gabethebabe]

-Bounce: I think two are enough. Why do you prefere Rebuild over Hurkyls? Have you ever used the cycling abiity?

This question has an obvious answer: Hurkyll´s  = removal spell OR storm enhancer. Rebuild = both. The cycling ability is just a bonus, not a very big one, but sometimes it will matter.

[heiner]

@gabethebabe: Sure rebuild enables you to go off during your main phase and use it as a storm enabler but its sometimes really hard to get to three mana or even four with sphere of Resistance. Secondly chalice for 2 is the worst vs. this deck so a bounce spell at 2 is definitey good.

[PucktheCat]

Rebuild is also fetched by Perplex.  Perplex is not only a Grim Tutor, it is also a Counterspell/Mind Twist.  It isn't as good a tutor as Grim, nor as good a counterspell as virtually any other option, but the ability to be both should not be underrated.  The countering ability of Perplex was able to force me to discard a Yawg. Will at a critical time, turning a game win for me into a topdecking war.  If he had had Grim in that spot I would have won the game next turn.

The mana base is the best thing about this deck.  Without the 14 lands you will have a tough Stax matchup, something you can't afford if you play in the middle of America.  You yourself have complained about your version's Stax matchup.  This build does not have that problem.  I think IT has the best mana base in the format.  It has no need for more than 3 lands to execute its strategy, it is only two colors, and it has acceleration that isn't hosed by Null Rod and is at a good mix of casting costs.  The deck is somewhat vulnerable to Sphere of Resistance, but otherwise it extrodinarily resilient against the common artifact lock pieces.  Even Chalice=1 isn't as bad as it appears because it doesn't stop Cabal Rit, artifact mana or the tutors.  Post sb Confidant is also nuts against Chalice.

[Moxlotus]

Heiner-I think you have a complete misunderstanding on how the deck works.  This deck is not aggressive combo.

Without that many lands the deck will lose to Stax--that many lands is a significant reason why Uba Stax is the decks' best matchup.  You said your deck has a hard time against stax, yet think this one has too many lands?

Intuition is the heart of the deck and the reason it is good.  It will find you the mana you need so you can have enough mana and storm post-Will.  Without it, you will only have a few mana and like 6 storm usually.  Storm IS a problem because we don't run draw 7s.  Intuition replaces draw 7s by allowing us to find the necessary storm cards and not have to hope to draw into the win.  There is no way that casting Intuition we would have enough mana to go off with Will.  Most of the time Intuition is cast EOT for Lotus, rit, rit to give us the mana and storm to go off.  It is kinda hard to win with this deck without casting an Intuition first to help load your grave.

Most of the time by turn 2 you have off mox, island, swamp.  You can't cast a Grim off that.  You can cast a perplex off it.

Intuition finds will.  Demonic, Grim, Grim/Perplex/Vamp.

fetch, fetch, mox, duress/Fow/Remand, brainstorm, Tutor or Rit, Intuition.  That is the definitive starting hand of the deck.  Intuition is infinitely better than a (nother) tutor here.  Intuition allows you to pretty much win (I'm not doing the math to be absolutely sure) the second you find a tutor (which the other card in you rhand might be or you can BS into it) because you can Intuition for Lotus, Ritx2.  This hand would suck ass with a tutor instead of Intuition.

Disruption>bombs.  You only need 1 bomb to win.  Disruption is cheaper to cast than another bomb.

 LitzLong plays most of its game like this: land, imperial seal/vamp/demonic for lotus. Untap. lotus, ritual, randomX, grim, Will, lotus, ritual, randomX, grim, tendrils,

And hands like that will lose to counter or stack component.  This deck is much more resiliant.  Plus, IT can do that sometimes.

This deck is less like GrimLong and plays a lot like Gifts.  
Compared to Gifts:
Drain--->Duress
Lands--->Rituals
Gifts--->Intuition
TFK/Merchant Scroll--->Grim Tutor

If you play it like Long you will lose.

[Disburden]

Re: Perplex

In my opinion, it is a neat trick, but not necessarily good.  In testing, I found that it was pretty neat to transmute Perplex under SoR for Rebuild without having to expose my dual lands to Wasteland for a turn, but I wouldn't say that I was always pleased to see Perplex.  It can pull some neat tricks like the one Leo described, but I don't think it is necessarily good in and of itself.

I just wanted to point out that I believe Preplex isn't in the deck anymore right? I read on SCG that one Hurkyl's and Perplex were out to support to Remand instead. This way you can bounce your own tendrils back with the copies on the stack. This way you can get a lethal tendrils without suffering for more storm-as much anyway.

[PucktheCat]

Disburden:  I don't think the list is as static as you are saying.  My impression is that Becker/Endress shift a few cards around almost every time they play it.  I do think that Perplex going out of style a bit though.  I think the deck actually ran 2 at one point, is that right?

I don't think that Perplex is "all that."  But it isn't just a bad Grim Tutor, it is more flexible than that.

@Eric:  I am sure you have tested Gifts in the deck (since I know you have tested both Intuition and Fact or Fiction, and Gifts seems like a natural relative of both of these cards).  What was the verdict on it?  Was it the casting cost that you didn't like, the requirement of getting different card names, or something else?

[Ged]

What's the reasoning behind the lone bloodstained mire?
Fear of Pithing Needle? Another land that can turn into a swamp?

[ErkBek]

-mana base: I think you run too much lands. I think you should definitely stay below 13 lands as you never need more than 1/2 land. You get slowed down and your overall card quality is increased significantly. I would suggest: -2 land, +2 cabal ritua. I have incorporated your idea of running a lot more fetchies than normal lands, which is genious I think.

This deck really needs 2 lands to win unless you get a hand with 3 Dark Rituals/Lotus and a tutor. I've found 14 lands very important to have vs. stax to have any game at all. I even run a basic in the SB to get up to the optimal number vs. stax, 15. I've tried -1 strand +1 LED and think its very good, you may want to consider that. If you have 0 stax in you meta, you may be right 12 lands might be the right number.

-Intuition: I was also testing this and didn't like it too much. The only advantage over Grim Tutor is that it creates more storm, as you have two more spells to replay in your graveyard. However storm is never the problem, most of the time the only question is whether you can get enough mana BEFORE Y'Will. Intuition almost seems like a win more card as if you are able to play it before Y'Will you have enough mana to win anyway. Intuition requires blue so chaining only black spells is not possible which normaly means that you need two lands in play and it nets -1 mana (intuition for 3 dark ritual), grim nets you at least 0 mana (lotus). Furthermore it doesnt allow you to get WIll. LitzLong plays most of its game like this: land, imperial seal/vamp/demonic for lotus. Untap. lotus, ritual, randomX, grim, Will, lotus, ritual, randomX, grim, tendrils, whereas randomX is some more mana or a brainstorm which will find you some more mana.
Intuition cant replace grim or vamp/seal/demonic in this example. I what cases do you think Intuition is strictly better than another black tutor?

Sometimes Intuition is a win more card.  That said Intuition is so much better than a black tutor all the time.
1) Hands without a ritual or lotus and 1 black tutor (prob have some moxen and 2 lands). Intuition for Ritx2 and lotus nets you 9 mana on you next turn (as well as 4 storm).
2) Intuition loads you yard for thresholded cabal rits
3) Intuition is an instant. This is huge vs drains. At the end of the 1st main phase play intuition. Its pretty likely it'll resolve. If you played a grim tutor here it would have been simply mana drained into the lose.
4) there are sideways 8 more circumstances that come up when playing.

-Perplex: This card is shit IMHO. Your tutors NEED to find both Will and LOTUS.

Didn't you just talk about your 2 tutor hands. Perplex can find will and you other tutor can find lotus in these circumstances. Perplex is really nice to have in a stax metagame as well. You know what cards I think are shit in combo: Time Walk and Windfall

-Bounce: I think two are enough. Why do you prefere Rebuild over Hurkyls? Have you ever used the cycling abiity?

I use the cycling ability about every time I draw it vs drains. If you are not running perplex and are only running 13 lands Hurkyl's may be the call. Thinking back on it, I prob should have run Hurkyl's (over rebuild) on day 2 in the MD.

IT is not a Grim Long build of any sort, and no one pretends that it is.  It is a storm deck, but not every storm deck is Long.  This deck is very appropriately called Intuition Tendrils because it uses Intuition to fuel its storm and win.  Intuition is what makes the deck...........resolving one quality threat is the old TPS adage of winning, and this deck more or less takes that stance, althought it sets up to resolve that quality threat first.

JD's whole post is 100% on.

Disburden:  I don't think the list is as static as you are saying.  My impression is that Becker/Endress shift a few cards around almost every time they play it.  I do think that Perplex going out of style a bit though.  I think the deck actually ran 2 at one point, is that right?

I don't think that Perplex is "all that."  But it isn't just a bad Grim Tutor, it is more flexible than that.

@Eric:  I am sure you have tested Gifts in the deck (since I know you have tested both Intuition and Fact or Fiction, and Gifts seems like a natural relative of both of these cards).  What was the verdict on it?  Was it the casting cost that you didn't like, the requirement of getting different card names, or something else?

We ran 2 Perplex for awhile. Rhyno ran 2 at the lotus event that he split with Jacob at. I've found Perplex useful at countering control's draw spells that let them get ahead on you.

Gifts has been tested. I thought it was decent, it'll be addressed in the Primer (hopefully that'll be up Monday).

What's the reasoning behind the lone bloodstained mire?
Fear of Pithing Needle? Another land that can turn into a swamp?

It's another land that can find a swamp or a Usea

[heiner]

Re: LitzLong

First of all, any deck that includes FoW is not Long, so we can start there.  Long is aggressive, and adding FoW to a combo deck instantly makes it less aggressive.

JDizzle, you have some very good points but I dont aggree with this one. FOW in fact is the most aggressive disruption availlable. It doest slow you down as it is free and therefore is to be preferred to duress, not to mention Xantid which is much more defensive, and slows you down a turn definitely. LitzLong is extremely aggresive with a goldfishrate of Meandecks GrimLong at the least. Just because it plays two more disruption does not disqualify it to be a long. If you happen to test it out you will see that it really plays like old Long and not like TPS, Gifts combo or the like.

I also understood that IT is substantialy different and the decks should not compared to each other too closely. I think litzlong is better vs. control but has a worse matchup vs stax compared to IT. I upped the bounce count to two, (still preferring Hurkyls over Rebuild) and added the 12th land, which helped a lot vs stax. Stax without spheres actually is a pretty easy matchup.

@kobefan: you mentioned valid points concerning Intuition and your example is a valid one, nevertheless I still think that a first turn tutor for lotus does basically the same. I will give Intuition another try although I think it wont be as strong as in your deck.
I d like to ask again: What do you think of Remand? They seem to have pretty good in richmond but does this high disruption count doesn't slow you down too much? and is it really needed. If you want to combo out and draw it in your brainstorm it kind of sucks doesnt it? Most of the time it will be to expensive to gain two strom for 2 mana. (bounce a mox)

We have talked about draw7s, but ,what do you think of Minds Desire? I found it mediocre as it is expensive and is never a guaranteed win.

[raiL]

Heiner, FOW is not the most agressive disruption. Infact, ill almost argue that its the LEAST agressive. Any disruption that is 2 for 1 is bad. While ill agree, its free, and allows you to counter bombs first turn on the draw, or when you attempt to go off, its not nearly as good as Duress in a deck such as this. 1 for 1, thats easy to get off mid combo, and also, is black, and doesnt require you to run excess blue cards. Pitching a BS  to a fow can set you back a turn fairly easily. your litz long build, gets wrecked by 1 extract. Your only alt win condition is a sundering titan post board, which is more then easily dealt with.

The versitility added by intuition is amazing. In my testing however, ive found that ive almost always wanted a tutor in the 3rd Intuition spot, since i was more often then not, casting it to nab 2x grim 1x demonic. So im at 2 intuitions now. Remand has alot of versitility as well. Being able to remand a drain target, or even, like someone mentioned, remand a tendrils to recast. 2 mana often wont matter the turn you need to go off, unlike litz long, this deck generally has 3 or so mana left in pool when going off. Also, cantrip = good.

[Moxlotus]

What do you think of Remand? They seem to have pretty good in richmond but does this high disruption count doesn't slow you down too much? and is it really needed. If you want to combo out and draw it in your brainstorm it kind of sucks doesnt it?

Remand sucks significantly less than FoW does in these situations.

[Gabethebabe]

I piloted this deck to a t8 in a 80 person mox tournament yesterday. I copied the day´s 2 decklist, running 2 Remand. They are quite OK. I ran Hurkyll´s Recall over Rebuild and I ran only 1 tendrils SB in favor of another Hurkyl´l´s Recall.

The deck is very good. but since I normally always play Drains and have few experience playing combo and no experience whatsoever playing this deck, I made quite some errors.

Also I lost the dieroll 1-7. In 4 cases this made the difference between losing and winning the first game (this includes the t8 match). In the swiss I went undefeated (5-0-2, none of them ID) but lost in the T8 against a very good matchup. After drawing 15 mana sources off necro game 1 and winning game 2 the key moment in the match was the following:

Scenario:
Hand: Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Mystical Tutor, Duress, Merchant Scroll.
Board: Island, Underground Sea, Mox Emerald, Tolarian Academy, all tapped.
Graveyard: Ancestral, FoW, Brainstorm, Duress.
19 life.

You enter your turn. How do you play? You can ignore your opponent (he plays FoW, but has only 1 card in hand).
I missed the best play. Lack of skill/experience. Not to mention I was fucking tired after going to the final 5 turns in A LOT of matches.
Do you do better?

[Gabethebabe]

Upkeep, tap Island to cast MT for DT (1 spell, 5 cards in yard).
Draw DT.
Main phase.
Tap Sea, cast Dark Ritual (BBB, 2 spells, 6 cards in yard).
Tap Emerald to cast DT for Will (BB, 3 spells, 7 cards in yard).
Tap Academy to play Cabal Rit with Threshold (BBBBBB, 4 spells, 8 in yard).
Will. (BBB, 5 spells, 9 in yard)
Dark Ritual (BBBBB, 6 spells, 8 in yard)
Cabal Rit (BBBBBBBB, 7 spells, 7 in yard).
Duress from yard, FoW from yard, pitching Scroll (BBBBBBB, 9 spells, X in yard)
DT for Tendrils (10 spells, BBBBB)
Tendrils (11 spells).

You could even Duress before casting Will if you wanted.

OK. just a nitpick is that Will doesn´t add cards to the yard, so you should cabal before ritual from the yard. But the key play is Mystical for Demonic. I missed that. And subsequently T4.