Quality over Quanity: The Gifts-FoF Debate

[Harlequin]

Fact or Fiction versus Gifts Ungiven.

I have spent alot of the past year designing and tuning mono-blue oath.  Needless to say, FoF was Amazing in that deck... plenty of 4 ofs along with cards that you wanted and did not want.  It went about 40:60 with ancestral recall for mystical choices.  I have recently picked up a Gifts based combo deck (the Brassman - Kowal build), and have sense passed oath onto my brother.  From transitioning between the deck, I have noticed that the power level of FOF and that of Gifts are definitely on par... yet one is restricted and the other is not.  I would like to like to initialize a debate on how the community would compare the power level of each of these two cards. 

Disclaimer: The R&B list is evidence that FoF is generally perceived as more powerful than Gifts.  That being said, this debate is not meant to be "I think X should be restricted/Un-restricted" whining articles.

Gifts Ungiven
Instant
Search your library for four cards with different names and reveal them. Target opponent chooses two of those cards. Put the chosen cards into your graveyard and the rest into your hand. Then shuffle your library.

Fact or Fiction
Instant
Reveal the top five cards of your library.  An opponent separates those cards into two face-up piles. Put one pile into your hand and the other into your graveyard.

Direct Similarities:
Both cost 3U
Both are at Instant speed
Both have interaction with opponent, and involve your opponent makeing choices.
Both put some cards in hand and some in the yard.

Comparisons ---
1)
Gifts: Generally better in a deck with many one-of's and restricted cards
FoF: Generally better in a deck with many 4-of's or cards that have similar utility.

2)
Gifts: ALWAYS* Gets you 2 cards in hand (*barring a "failed" search)
FoF: Can get you 1 game winning card, 2 great cards, 4 sub-optimal cards .. but 75+% of the time will get you THREE decent cards for 4 mana.

3)
Gifts: Has you make the initial decision and your opponent make the final decision.
FoF: Has your opponent make the initial decision and you make the final decision.

4)
Gifts: Power attributed to deck construction, and skill in choosing your four cards.  Has no luck involved.
FoF: Power related to randomness and requires little skill.
4-b)
Gifts: Your four cards can be tailored to the Game state.  You can get 4 mana, 4 win conditions, or 4 tutors, depending on what you need at the time you cast it.
FoF: the five cards you see are your five cards, all random (perhaps 1 is a top-deck tutor card).  This drawback can be offset if you have lots of 4-ofs and cards that do practically the same thing.
4-c)
Gifts: Because you pick the cards, you can evaluate "if I choose these 4 cards, is there combination of piles where my opponent can screw me?" before you offer the final piles.  Unless you missplay, you Always improve your chance of winning with a resolved gifts.
FoF: There is a chance, be it relatively small, that you can get screwed by FoF. For example if you need an Oath and you flip- Creature, Creature, Oath, Land, Land.

5)
Gifts: You cannot get duplicate cards with gifts.  But you can get similar cards.  this means you have to have 3 different overlapping cards if you want to get ONE of those cards.  You cannot do this if you do not have all 3 similar cards left in your deck.
FoF: You can sometimes get multiple copies of one key card, but your opponent can split those cards. Basically guaranteeing that you get at least one copy of that key card.  You can only do this if your deck is lucky enough to flip 2 of one card in 5 cards.

6)
Gifts:  Gifts has broken synergy with Recoup, Yawgmoth's will.  Also Gifts is broken because you can run about 5+ tutors with different names (esp now that portal is legal).
FoF: FoF is broken by cards that can abuse a huge swing in cards, such as Psychatog. Also has amazing synergy with Yawgmoths will as well.

7)
Gifts: Resolving a Gifts will generally win the game in  a matter of turns, Because you can get your win conditions.  At very least it puts your opponent in the "Find answers" mode almost immediately.
FoF: Enables you to get massive card advantage to help you win the game.  But becasue you don't always get win conditions, it does not always win you the game... but it certainly helps.

8)
Gifts:  It is difficult/Impossible to use Gifts in response to a win condition to "Find an Answer"
FoF: FoF can be used to say "Do I have a force in the top 5 cards?"  This means FoF can be used defensively.

9)
Gifts: Gifts based combo decks generally do not run FoF.  "It's too random when you have that many one-ofs"
FoF: Decks that run FoF generally don't run gifts (but some still do).  They instead opt for Intuition.

10)
Gifts: Gifts gives you a shuffle effect.  So Brain Storm before gifts is a generally a strong play.
FoF:Does not shuffle so FoF is improved by top-deck tutors.  It does give you a chance to "flush" brainstorm cards.  But generally Brain Storming before FoF will make your FoF weaker.

The Main Questions[/u]:
Is Quantity Better than Quality?  Gifts give you 4 cards you need to win, FoF lets you dig 5 cards deep and get 3 of them.

Gifts: Clearly there are decks that benefit from running multiple gifts.  Could "gifts" based combo/control decks exsist if Gifts was restricted?

FoF: FoF has been restricted for a decent period of time, and because of FoF's restriction, It seems to be seeing less and less play.  What decks/archetypes would be empowered by 2-3 FoFs?  Could this lead to a "FoF Based combo/control deck." Similarly, do you think Gifts.dec could and would cut cards to run 2-3 FoFs, and would this improve Gifts?



Well there it is.  I tried to word my debate points un-bias to either card.  Please add any of your own points on how Gifts and FoF are different. 

Personal Commentary:
I think within the context of constructed vintage deck, Gifts is actually a stronger card.  But by NO means, do I think its strong enough to warrant a restriction.  As I mentioned before, Clearly someone in charge of the R&B list DOES think that FoF is in some way stronger than Gifts.  I fail to see a clear cut argument to support that.

[PucktheCat]

I see the cards as approximately equal in strength.  I run 3x Gifts and 1x Fact in my Gifts list, which essentially means I have cut a Gifts for a Fact.  Even though Gifts is clearly the more broken card in that deck, there are a couple of reasons I think this is right.  The first is simply that it is another card name you can put in a Gifts.  Gifts piles like Fact, Gifts, Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll or the like are a pretty important option to have available.  Also, as you said, Gifts is predictable and Fact is random.  That means that sometimes you can look at the game state and see that Gifts won't do enough for you to win the game.  If that's the case, you are better off getting Fact and hoping for the nuts than casting a futile Gifts.  After all, something like 10% of the time Fact will flip over Yawgmoth's Will, and then you probably just win.

In general, I think that Fact is a better card to combat resource denial strategies, while Gifts is a better card to win you the game once you have sufficient resources.  That doesn't directly answer your question, but I don't have a direct answer.  The cards are just different, and in a deck with tutoring there are decent reasons to have both available.

[Smmenen]

I think that Gifts is a superior card now, but let's face it, Fact isn't far behind, and if you could play more than 4 Gifts, wouldn' you?  I would.

[Metman]

This was a debate I had been running through my head ever since Gifts Ungiven was printed.  Since it's print I have wondered the differences in power level as you have stated in your post.  To be perfectly honest, I believe that Gifts is a more powerful card than FoF because of the quality of cards the caster gets to find.  To me it seems that Gifts is actually two Demonic Tutors glued to each other and blue and an instant.    FoF to me is an serves as part super Impulse, part Dredge mechanic, part dumbed up Ancestral Recall.  With the number of absolutely broken cards available to T1 finding two of your four best is better than finding three of your top five. 

They serve different purposes as you noted.  If FoF and Gifts were available to standard T2 players with the rest of the card pool available to that format, than I would think that FoF is better simply because of the lack of powerful cards to find with Gifts.  This leads to one of your main points which is written in your first comparrison.  Redundancy is rewarded with FoF and 1 of power is rewarded with Gifts. 

I can't comment on whether or not Gifts.dec would servive if Gifts Ungiven were restricted.  I also can't comment on whether FoF could be tossed in to replace it. 

I am going to toss this out despite your call not to discuss it.  In vintage the level of power is astronomical.  This puts Gifts at least on at least the same level of FoF.  If you were to keep FoF restricted you should restrict Gifts.  I think the format is balanced right now, the last couple large US tournies has shown that.  We've seen a surge of variety and success is some new and old decks which is great.  I know that it's not always the level of power that determines whether a card is restricted but it seems odd that cards like Entomb and Votaic Key are restricted which are far less format defining and far less powerfull than Gifts Ungiven.  With that said I don't think Gifts should be restricted. 

[Harlequin]

I think that Gifts is a superior card now, but let's face it, Fact isn't far behind, and if you could play more than 4 Gifts, wouldn' you?  I would.

I totally agree that both cards are on the same power level.  Your post Smmenen, seems to imply that a gifts based combo/control deck would start running some combination of Gifts & FoF.  Perhapse 3-2, 3-3, or 4-2?  Essentially running 5 or 6 cards that are on equal power.  But Gifts decks don't always run even 4 copeis of gifts, and even rarer is to see 4 gifts and 1 FoF (wich would be your "more than 4" copies of gifts).  Its an interesting arguement.  For others who have designed a gifts deck, would your list improve if you knew you could run 6 gifts-powered cards?  

Based on what Smmenen said, perhapse WotC's thinking was "we had to restrict one, otherwise decks would have too many good cards.  Restricting both would be exsesive ... so lets just leave FoF restricted even though it may technically be weaker."   ... All that assumes that wizards puts thought into the vintage R&B list.  I guess I just give them the benefit of the doubt.

@Puck & the resource argument:  I agree and disagree...  Alot of Gifts decks run Island, Snow Covered Island.  So they can grab Island Island Fetch Fetch if they are faceing a bad Wasteland/strip game.  But I do admit that FoF is generally a better card to avoid that mana-pwning.

[Smmenen]

Well, recall that my Meandeck Gifts ran 4 Gifts and 1 Fact.

I understand why Brassy/Kowal gifts does not - he has 4 Thirsts.  For a while though they were running 2 Gifts and, what, 1 Fact?  And now they have 3 Gifts?  That suggests that they think and I agree that Gifts is better than Fact. 

[Harlequin]

Well, recall that my Meandeck Gifts ran 4 Gifts and 1 Fact.

I understand why Brassy/Kowal gifts does not - he has 4 Thirsts.  For a while though they were running 2 Gifts and, what, 1 Fact?  And now they have 3 Gifts?  That suggests that they think and I agree that Gifts is better than Fact. 

I was unaware that meandeck had 4 gifts and 1 FoF, my mistake.  I know even LESS about the liniage and history of the deck.  Admitidly, I have only been playing it for a few weeks now, and only have tested copy-cats of Kowal's actualy decklists.  I guess I underestimate a deck that runs both mulitple gifts and mutliple FoFs.  I'll do some digging and study the meandeck (and meandeck-eque) builds.  But out of curiosity, lets say they unrestricted FoF tomorrow.  How would you change your deck?

[Whatever Works]

The card choice also depends on what deck you play. For decks based around sheer power like meandeck gifts... Obviously gifts is better, because it is the most effective way to achieve the decks ultimate goal of a large yawgmoths will... or tinker + time walk + recoup/buring wish --> Time walk.

However, in decks like mono blue (which obviously isnt half as good as meandeck gifts but I am just trying to illustrate the point) that fact or fiction would be the superior card.

FoF I find to almost always be the stronger card in shay's version of slaver, but in any burning slaver varient gifts could be considered the better card all because of the deck design, and the ability to abuse the said card.

Kyle L.

[PipOC]

I suppose I'm in the minority. Unless I'm actually able to end the game within the next turn or two, then I greatly prefer Fact.  It will actually replenish your hand without having to spend additional mana on top of the initial 4, something you have to do when Giftsing for CA with MDG.  That's one of the main reasons I dislike MDG, Giftsing into Brainstorm, Merchant Scroll, FoF, Gifts doesn't work as well as FoF into FoW, Brainstorm, Land, Drain, Land or something similar when trying to take control of the game.

[Moxlotus]

One of the reasons why Gifts is unrestricted while Fact is not is because mutliple Gifts has diminshing returns while FoF doesn't.  After the first Gifts, they kinda suck.  FoF doesn't have that problem.  They are equal or Gifts has the upper hand the first time cast, but FoF is clearly superior the second, third, and fourth time cast.

[Smmenen]

Well, recall that my Meandeck Gifts ran 4 Gifts and 1 Fact.

I understand why Brassy/Kowal gifts does not - he has 4 Thirsts.  For a while though they were running 2 Gifts and, what, 1 Fact?  And now they have 3 Gifts?  That suggests that they think and I agree that Gifts is better than Fact. 

I was unaware that meandeck had 4 gifts and 1 FoF, my mistake.  I know even LESS about the liniage and history of the deck.  Admitidly, I have only been playing it for a few weeks now, and only have tested copy-cats of Kowal's actualy decklists.  I guess I underestimate a deck that runs both mulitple gifts and mutliple FoFs.  I'll do some digging and study the meandeck (and meandeck-eque) builds.  But out of curiosity, lets say they unrestricted FoF tomorrow.  How would you change your deck?

I would probably just play a 4 Fact or Fiction control deck. 

[Metman]

One of the reasons why Gifts is unrestricted while Fact is not is because mutliple Gifts has diminshing returns while FoF doesn't.  After the first Gifts, they kinda suck.  FoF doesn't have that problem.  They are equal or Gifts has the upper hand the first time cast, but FoF is clearly superior the second, third, and fourth time cast.

I think this would be true if all you used Gifts for was the find the absolutely broken cards in a deck ie Yawg/Recoup/Tinker/Time Walk.  Gifts still serves as a double tutor when you need it to be.  It gets at least two cards everytime.  Fact usually gets two or three and you don't get to chose them; it's random.  Gifts has much more diversity than you are claiming. 

[warble]

There is clear justification behind Fact or Fiction's restriction.  It's an instant and you get the best of your top 5, and if two of those cards are force of will you get either 2x force or your best and one force, or...I mean you see my point.  You shouldn't be allowed to draw that much juice at once, and if you are allowed to it should at least be limited to a one-time thing.  Gifts is broken early, in a combo sense, or when you only choose two and use it as a GY tutor.  But it's not the uber-draw that Fact is.  It's nowhere near the power level.  For combo, it gives the deck a wonderfulness because now you're draining into combo-ing off.  But that's not a brokenness it's a new aspect, and one that modified but does not break the environment.  Fact or Fiction as a 4-of means force of will is about 10x better.  Seriously, Force of Will can't get more powerful, that's just wrong.  Nobody would play any spells except for draw power and counterspells and their win conditions that they'd have like two of.  It's not a pretty environment to play in.  I'd rather play a game of war using my cards' casting costs or something...

[PucktheCat]

Harlequin:  I'm not only talking about mana denial, although that is part of it.  Fact or Fiction is better when your hand is depleted generally, unless you are in a position where Gifts will win you the game right away.  Gifts for 4x land is certainly a play that is sometimes necessary, but it isn't that good.  You usually can get two lands and a spell or three mana off a Fact.  Gifting up counterspells is even harder (Drain, Force, Merch. Scroll, X is probably your best bet).

To follow-up and clairify, I think that Gifts decks need a two-step engine to win.  Gifts Ungiven doesn't just win the game until you get at least some base of resources available.  This includes mana (only rarely will just four mana be enough), counterspells, combo pieces (if you pull up a Yawg. Will then your next Gifts really will win you the game flat out).  At the resource building stage it frequently doesn't much matter what cards you are getting, so long as you are getting a lot of them.  Pulling up counterspells?  You can stop their mana denial or clock and win.  Pulling up artifact mana?  Gifts is probably now lethal on a single casting.  Pulling up Tinker, Yawgmoth's Will, Time Walk+draw spell?  Go broken and win.  At this stage, when you need to accumulate resources, Gifts isn't really that great.  The best way to increase your overall resources with Gifts Ungiven is getting four draw spells, and that is a very slow plan.

Anyway, what I'm saying is no big secret.  Everyone knows that Gifts decks need a first stage draw engine to supplement the combo power of Gifts.  Meandeck has used Merchant Scroll, Brassman uses Thirst for Knowledge.  Skeletal Scrying is also seen sometimes, mostly as a 1-of.  I think Fact or Fiction fits more into this catagory than the game finishing catagory that Gifts Ungiven fills.  It is more akin to a more broken Thirst for Knowledge/Merchant Scroll than a less broken Gifts.

I know people will respond that Fact costs four mana, so it makes no sense to use Fact to ramp up to Gifts, which also costs four mana.  My response is: Gifts doesn't cost four mana.  It may look like it does, because the casting cost is U3, but that's deceptive.  Nearly all of the good Gifts pulls involved getting cards that get cards that do things.  Consider the card draw pull I mentioned earlier, the tutor pull that frequently comes up, the combo pull that relies on Recoup.  All of these setups involve getting the cards that set you up to find what you want if you have the mana to do it.  It is pretty hard to get pulls where all four of the cards you are getting directly impact the game state without offering your opponent grossly inequitable card splits.  That Yawg. Will, Black Lotus, Mana Drain, Force of Will pile may be the play if you absolutely need to have a counterspell up next turn, but it sure isn't my idea of a good time.  Because you usually have to get cards that get cards with Gifts Ungiven the cost of a typical Gifts is usually something on the order of 7-10 mana before all is said and done.  Of course that 7-10 mana should nearly always win you the game, but it is still 7-10 mana.  If you don't have that to spend then more direct draw spells that get you action for 3-4 mana are necessary.  That's where Thirst for Knowledge, Merchant Scroll, and I would argue Fact or Fiction come in.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Gifts is a tutor on crack, and Fof is a draw spell that feeds Yawg.  Gifts is clearly superior considering the quality of cards that you can fetch (Yawg/Recoup/Tinker/Time Walk or Yawg/Recoup/Burning Wish/Lotus), but you can only play so many restricted cards and Gifts targets, so the second Gifts isn't nearly as good.  Fact or Fiction actually has increasing returns; a FoF that flips another FoF will probably win that player the game.  FoF is clearly more broken if allowed as a 4-of, but even as a 1-of it's not far behind Gifts in power level.

[PucktheCat]

you can only play so many restricted cards and Gifts targets, so the second Gifts isn't nearly as good.

A couple of people have said things to this effect.  I think this almost entirely a misunderstanding of the way Gifts decks work.  If I fetch a combo Gifts pile (Recoup, Yawg. Will, X, Y) I am going to win the game next turn.  I am not worried that the next Gifts I draw will be weak because I have stripped all of my restricted cards out of my library - the game is over.  There are certainly games where I cast Gifts more than once, but it is nearly always the first one that is weak because that is when I have not set up enough to get the restricted cards.  Early game Gifts tend to be things like Time Walk, Thirst for Knowledge, Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm or something like that, or perhaps mana sources.  I'm not going to miss those cards too much, and they certainly aren't going to make my next Gifts weaker.  If anything, the first Gifts makes the second stronger by stocking the 'yard so that my second Gifts can focus on just resolving Will and letting the cards the first Gifts got actually win the game.

[Rapalaman1]

you can only play so many restricted cards and Gifts targets, so the second Gifts isn't nearly as good.

Early game Gifts tend to be things like Time Walk, Thirst for Knowledge, Merchant Scroll, Brainstorm or something like that, or perhaps mana sources. If anything, the first Gifts makes the second stronger by stocking the 'yard so that my second Gifts can focus on just resolving Will and letting the cards the first Gifts got actually win the game.

An early game Gifts for TFK, Merchant Scroll, BS, and Gifts #2 can be an amazing set up for a more powerful Gifts a turn or two later. This is something that FOF can only hope to do out of 5 cards.

[PucktheCat]

An early game Gifts for TFK, Merchant Scroll, BS, and Gifts #2 can be an amazing set up for a more powerful Gifts a turn or two later. This is something that FOF can only hope to do out of 5 cards.

This is exactly the kind of Gifts I am talking about.  There are a bunch of ways to set them up, but the idea is always the same.  I think Fact is an important option to have in these piles because Thirst is pretty bad if you don't have an artifact you can pitch, but that is somewhat beside the point.  The problem with piles like the one you listed above is that they basically take two full turns mana to accomplish roughly the same thing that a Fact does with one turns mana.  If I give you, for example, TFK and Brainstorm, you get to see the top 6 cards of your library and keep the best 2-3 (depending on whether you have an artifact to pitch).  You have spent UUU5, essentially all of your mana for two turns, to do this.  For U3, one turn's mana, you can see the top 5 and get 2-3 of them.  There are other advantages to the early Gifts, because you have stocked your 'yard and so on, but nonetheless, the comparison is stark - Fact is far more efficient as a pure draw spell than Gifts is.

As an aside, the high tempo/mana cost of early Gifts is the reason that I have taken to occasionally putting Time Walk in early card advantage Gifts piles.  I would usually rather get three cards for free than 6 at the cost of two turns, so getting Walk+a draw spell is frequently better than getting two draw spells.

[Evenpence]

So if Fact was unrestricted, what would the optimal list look like?  3 Fact 3 Gifts?  What would you cut for the Facts?  Would you instead play something like 4 Fact 2 Gifts?  Would the deck to play Fact in still be Gifts, or would Mono-Blue be better?

I remember there were two guys at Richmond playing Mono-Blue and I was scared to death to play them, because of MD Back to Basics and SB Energy Flux.

[PucktheCat]

Well, this is all speculation without testing, but I would think that 2 Gifts/4 Fact would be pretty strong.  You wouldn't have much trouble finding those two Gifts by the time you wanted them with all that draw.  There is some risk that that kind of setup would push the deck's curve too high, but that is what testing would have to find out.  2 Gifts/3 Fact might also show up.  That's the same number of 4cc draw spells that Meandeck Gifts plays, but it shifts the emphasis to the resource developing Fact over the game-ending Gifts.

Note that even though I'm arguing for Fact's inclusion over one of the Gifts, I don't think Fact is just better than Gifts.  Gifts is a mid-late game bomb - it takes an advantage and wins the game with it.  The problem is that you have to get an advantage first, even if it is just a small one.  That's where Fact shines.  It is incidentally the same niche that TfK is in, and I do think Fact is better than Thirst, although I know some disagree because I have definately seen lists with 4 TfK and no Fact.

[Jank Golem]

Another thing about FoF is that it is much more skill intensive than Gifts. With Gifts you can give them exactly what you want to have, where as with FoF you have to make the piles as even as possible which can be difficult because of the 3:2 split. Seeing as most players in a tournament do not posses the skill to separate piles correctly this can make FOF very strong. That said I think Gifts is better then Fact in most decks, besides mono blue or other counter heavy decks. This is not to say however that Gifts is overpowered, and having FoF restricted and Gifts not is correct.

[Purple Hat]

Gifts can definately be used defensively.  At richmond I saw outlaw respond to timetwister by casting gifts for reb, pyroblast, force of will and brainstorm, also known as gifts for "counter that" that was about the point where I realized I needed to actually start playing again cus I never woulda seen that.  Preboard that gifts could go for like, ancestral, drain, force, will, and if your opponent doesn't actually win the game by resolving the current spell he's gotta give you a counter.  no one's giving you ancestral and will unless the game's actually over, and you can always recoup your will back anyway.  If it's counter or lose you could throw a brainstorm in there and then it becomes UUU3, is force one of the top 6 cards on my library, or mystical and you can mystical for force, ancestral to draw it and then force the spell.  Anyway, this post seems to keep growing as I think of more ways to get a counter with gifts.  Clearly I need to be playing more magic.

hale

[Evenpence]

Another thing about FoF is that it is much more skill intensive than Gifts. With Gifts you can give them exactly what you want to have, where as with FoF you have to make the piles as even as possible which can be difficult because of the 3:2 split. Seeing as most players in a tournament do not posses the skill to separate piles correctly this can make FOF very strong. That said I think Gifts is better then Fact in most decks, besides mono blue or other counter heavy decks. This is not to say however that Gifts is overpowered, and having FoF restricted and Gifts not is correct.

In the Top 8, my Slaver opponent Fact or Fictioned, revealing Tinker, Colossus, and 3 other good cards.  I put the Tinker and Colossus in one pile, and the other cards in the other pile.  My opponent chose the Tinker/Colossus.  As soon as I separated them, I heard someone say, "YES!" in the backround, clearly indicating that they knew my pile was correct.  I actually had audibly said before that, "Are you ready for these tech piles?"  I thought it was pretty funny.

Most players don't know how to separate FoFs, it's true, and the only way that you can truly understand how to give your opponent the best FoF is to understand what he wants more.  When you understand the single card that he wants more than anything, you can sometimes get away with 4-1s, and he'll most of the time take the 1, even if it's not all that correct.  I've won plenty a game by doing 4/1, knowing that the 4 pile was much smarter, but watching time and time again my opponent take the 1 because he wanted it, and already had counters in his hand, etc etc.

The FoF is skill-intensive for both sides of the board.  With Gifts, it's easier, because the player who gives you the two cards goes:  "I definitely don't want you to have this one.  Now, which of these three would hurt me least?"  With FoF, it's another matter entirely.

[49 Cents]

In the Top 8, my Slaver opponent Fact or Fictioned, revealing Tinker, Colossus, and 3 other good cards.  I put the Tinker and Colossus in one pile, and the other cards in the other pile.  My opponent chose the Tinker/Colossus.  As soon as I separated them, I heard someone say, "YES!" in the backround, clearly indicating that they knew my pile was correct.  I actually had audibly said before that, "Are you ready for these tech piles?"  I thought it was pretty funny.

Not to burst your bubble or anything, but that pile is totally obvious, right?

Fact is a very strong card. It either gives you massive cardadvantage, or it gives you one or 2 decent cards. But if it were unrestricted, wouldn't Mono U beat Gifts?

[Gabethebabe]

Gifts is a tutor, Fact is a draw spell. We´re comparing apples and pears here.

FoF is the better spell, because it universal and playable in almost all decks that run Islands and resolving it is huge.
In the particular case of a deck build around Gifts, of course Gifts is the better spell to resolve (with the sidenote that if I open with Island, mox, Crypt I´d rather cast FoF than Gifts off it)

Daily Thompson would beat Bernard Hinault in almost everything. But put him on a bike and he would not be able to compete.

[Harlequin]

I disagree that casting 2 gifts is not as good as 2 FoF's.  If you know that your going to be gifting twice, then you can hit that first pile for masive mana.  Something like: Tolarian, Lotus, Crypt, Tinker.  Then your second pile can be the Recall, Timewalk, Recoup, Yawgs.  I find myself makeing piles of mana alot, esp if I have a tutor or other business cards in hand.  this way I set up for an absolutly broken 2nd gifts.  Also you can spin that arguement the other way.  Gifts is better because you either A) cast it and its so good you dont need to cast another one, or B) the first gift amplifies the 2nd gift to make your win almost garenteed.  You could spin it to say, the first time you cast FoF DOESN'T make your 2nd FoF any better.  If your deck is running around 20 restricted cards and roughly 4-6 other one-of's ... Its hard to argue that your 2nd gifts will not be very good.... Infact You would have to cast gift 5 times in order to pull all the restricted cards from Kowal's Richmond deck-list (as an example).

Secondly just becuase FoF is a "generally" good card doesn't make it more or less powerful.  Unrestricted Cards like wasteland, Force, Pithing needle, Tormod's crypt, etc all are good in almost any deck you put them in.  More importantly, there are MANY cards in the restricted list that are only good for ONE purpose in one or two deck... put that card in any other deck and they would not be very good or played at all.  Stuff like: LED, Volatic Key, Entomb.  the agruement that FoF is better because more decks can play it doesnt really hold water because that doesn't seem to be a consideration to what makes a restricted card and what doesn't.

[PucktheCat]

Harlequin:  The Gifts for mana then Gifts for Will play is certainly a big part of the deck, and it will win you the game when you do it, but that doesn't address the fundamental point.  That's a play that takes two turns to develop, requires your opponent not to answer a series of obviously must counter spells, and is not available if any of a number of commonly played disruption effects are in play.  That's precisely what I mean when I say that Gifts is better than Fact as a game finisher once you have an advantage.  That play will never be available to you unless your opponent has failed to execute his gameplan in some way - no deck in the format will give you two undisrupted turns to do what you want unless you make them.  The question Gifts decks need to answer is "how do I gain the brief one to two turn advantage that will win me the game."  That's where I feel that Thirst for Knowledge, Merchant Scroll, and Fact or Fiction fit in.

Purple Hat:  I have certainly made those plays before, but the situations where they work (unless you set them up preemptively) are relatively few.  In order for the Force, Drain, Mystical, Ancestral play to do its thing you need UUU3 available all in one turn, and you really need to have another blue card in hand.  The REBs piles are pretty good though, actually.  Gifts is very good in the control mirror because mana/tempo is relatively cheap and spells trade, so a 2-1 is nearly always good.

[Whatever Works]

Gifts is a tutor, Fact is a draw spell. We´re comparing apples and pears here.

FoF is the better spell, because it universal and playable in almost all decks that run Islands and resolving it is huge.
In the particular case of a deck build around Gifts, of course Gifts is the better spell to resolve (with the sidenote that if I open with Island, mox, Crypt I´d rather cast FoF than Gifts off it)

Daily Thompson would beat Bernard Hinault in almost everything. But put him on a bike and he would not be able to compete.

Perfectly stated. To bad nobody will understand your sports refference in the USA. To make a USA version would be...Michael Jordan (FoF) Best overall athlete vs. Tiger woods (gifts)... Michael Jordan could kill Tiger in most athletic events, but when it comes to golf (Specific deck/situations where gifts would thrive) Jordan is no competition... Sidenote Jordan is decent at golf with a handicap about 7ish?

Kyle L

[ashiXIII]

Gifts can definately be used defensively.  At richmond I saw outlaw respond to timetwister by casting gifts for reb, pyroblast, force of will and brainstorm, also known as gifts for "counter that" that was about the point where I realized I needed to actually start playing again cus I never woulda seen that.  Preboard that gifts could go for like, ancestral, drain, force, will, and if your opponent doesn't actually win the game by resolving the current spell he's gotta give you a counter.  no one's giving you ancestral and will unless the game's actually over, and you can always recoup your will back anyway.

hale

That's horrible. You have Timetwister on the stack; you don't care what goes in their hand if your Timetwister is going to resolve. They're NOT getting Drain (if they can cast it) and they're NOT getting Force, unless I think they have another counter in their hand, anyway.

Harlequin:  The Gifts for mana then Gifts for Will play is certainly a big part of the deck, and it will win you the game when you do it, but that doesn't address the fundamental point.  That's a play that takes two turns to develop, requires your opponent not to answer a series of obviously must counter spells, and is not available if any of a number of commonly played disruption effects are in play.  That's precisely what I mean when I say that Gifts is better than Fact as a game finisher once you have an advantage.  That play will never be available to you unless your opponent has failed to execute his gameplan in some way - no deck in the format will give you two undisrupted turns to do what you want unless you make them.  The question Gifts decks need to answer is "how do I gain the brief one to two turn advantage that will win me the game."  That's where I feel that Thirst for Knowledge, Merchant Scroll, and Fact or Fiction fit in.

This is spot on. Early on, Fact is much better than Gifts. Even in the Gifts deck (you know, the one built to abuse Gifts Ungiven?) Fact or Fiction is still better on turns 1-3, and sometimes 4-5. After these turns, when you have the advantage, Gifts Ungiven becomes a stronger spell, because it ends the game all by itself. The reason for this is because you already have the mana to do so. One of the most common things to do with Gifts (in my experience, at least) is to play it on turn 4 or after, after I have already drawn cards, and am already holding either a tutor or Yawg. Will. Then, cast the Gifts for mana (lotus and academy, or lotus and petal, or petal and academy, depending on what you need/have) and win conditions (Time Vault/Fusillade, Tinker/Walk, etc.) Next, you tutor up the Will, and win. This makes Gifts Ungiven into 4 Demonic Tutors, for half of what that would cost. This is where Gifts power lies. So, to sum up: Fact or Fiction is much stronger tha Gifts in the early-mid game, and provides better (immediate) card advantage, where Gifts Ungiven is better in the mid-late game, providing an effect that allows you to win once you have a small advantage.

[Harlequin]

Gifts is a tutor, Fact is a draw spell. We´re comparing apples and pears here.
...

Well if you look at the restricted list as a rule of thumb
Tutors are restricted - unless they are high cost (Grim tutor, Diabolic Intent) or have limited usefullness (merchant scroll, worldly tutor).
Draw spells are generally un-restricted - Unless they are drastically undercosted (Gush, Ancestral).

Is Gifts really that limited?
Is 3(out of 5) Cards for 4 mana really that undercosted?