Discussion, Burning Slavery. Building, playing, insights, and so much more.

[forests failed you]

You don't need a strong Tinker target against Stax.  You need an efficient Tinker target.  I almost always go for COW, or have no problem shuffling it back into my deck for later.  Stax plays Welder which makes Tinker problematic anyways.  I admit that there are times when I really miss the Pentavus, but for the most part MD Shamans and Welders and countermagic = Sweet Dreams for Stax players.  I haven't lost with this list against Stax in almost three months in tournament play.  Post board you have a lot of strong options against Stax.  Solem is a really powerful card against workshops.

[marcb]

FFY,

 I was wondering what cards you take out of the MD when you are boarding in against different decks.  What would you take out against gifts, control slaver, stax, oath, fish etc? I have to agree that the MD seems so tight it is hard to SB with this deck because I like every MD card. Thanks.

Marc

[SiegeX]

I tested (Crucible of Worlds) I even had it in my deck the last time there was a 2-Power-Tournies-In-One-Weekend. But I keep coming up with the same result: it isn’t good enough to justify a maindeck spot.Against Stax, for three mana, I’d rather have Rack and Ruin. In just about any other match, I’d rather Tinker up something else.

I'd just like to give a few more reasons why CoW is nothing short but amazing.  First off let me premise that if you are going to play COW, then strip mine is a given. Besides strip-lock and slaver-lock, CoW lets you TFK and throw away a land or two and not care.  It allows you to thin your deck every turn with fetch lands.  It also makes for really nice gift piles.  A gift pile of COW/Strip/Bomb/Bomb pretty much guarentees you that one of those bombs goes to your hand, and the other card is a strip mine.

I'd also like to bring up the discussion on a Jester's Cap in CS.  From reading Evenpence's report on "The Jester", it seems that a single activation of this badboy is just as good as a mindslaver (not to mention cheaper).  I currently run two Mind Slavers, but I wouldn't mind trying one Slaver and one Cap.  Just curious if anybody else has given this a try.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Mindslaver is a bomb against everyone.  Anyone.  Fish, Stax, Combo, Gifts, you name it.  The power of Mindslaver is directly proportional to the power of your opponent's deck.  Cap is a ridiculous bomb against Gifts and Combo, but is pretty awful against Fish/aggro and Stax.  I'd run a Cap in the side possibly as a mini-slaver, but it's no substitute.  A Slaver activation is game 90% of the time unless your opponent has no hand and topdecks land.  If he has a hand and mana, and you slave and fail to win, you did something wrong.  Slaver is too good to cut, and Cap is only conditionally better against some decks and horrid against others.

[MoxMonkey]

I had a Cap in my board and know people here who run them Main at times depending on the metagame.  It can be very good in a Gifts, Storm combo,  Oath heavy metagame but its no way a Replace for Mindslaver.  Mindslaver is always good, Cap is dead at times.

[SiegeX]

Good points, my meta is pretty heavy control/oath (well at least the T8) was so i'll give it a shot in the SB.

Another thing I wanted to bring up is when and what to do with your Yawgwill turn if you arn't running a tendrils/combo kill.  Assuming your not behind the 8-ball and grasping for thin air, would it be fair to say that you shouldn't will unless you are nearly certain youll get at least one slaver activation?

{EDIT}

I have a few SB questions/suggestions. 

1) What do you think about swapping Pyrite Spellbomb for Granite Shard in the SB.  Its an extra 2 mana investment the first time around, but it doesnt require an active welder to be reusable and it can still pitch to thirst.  Downside of course it also only does 1 point instead of 2 but you also have Rolling Earthquake and Fire/Ice in the SB for all those non x/1 critters.  If you do move to Granite Shard, I think shard+fire/ice+rolling earthquake is a bit overkill and you could replace the fire/ice with a much needed stifle.

2) Swap Echoing Ruin for Meltdown.  Both can take out multiples of the same artifact, both are wish targets but the big advantage meltdown has is that it gets around chalice no matter what its set to which makes it a pretty nice wish target IMHO.  The downside is that you wipe out your SoLomoxen (along with theirs!) but since you have the element of surprise hopefully you can play around this.

[MoxMonkey]

Gain as Much tempo as Possible.  If your both down to zero cards in hand and you rip Will if you can Double BS or ancestral and play a land maybe some other stuff that should be enough to put you in the winning position.  I've wused illed just to play a Welder then Time Walk cause I had Mindslaver and  aTFK in hand.  Theres different times when its ok to will early but if you do make sure you get the most out of it.

[Mantis]

The Atog Lord advocated on running a singleton Tormod's Crypt in CS. FFY tested it but found it dead often times. Now how about playing Phyrexian Furnace instead of Tormod's Crypt. Furnace does cost one mana but is never dead is it can cycle itself. Furnace is by no means strictly superior than Crypt and obviously has it's downsides. I find that Furnace does a way better job at keeping the yard clean than Crypt which is a one shot. Crypt is a one shot that is not hard to play around.

The Burning Slavery variant adds some interesting synergies to Furnace as you can remove a powerful sorcery (DT, Tinker) from the yard and get it back with your Wish.

Goblin Welder + Crypt is strong however but I find Furnace to be less vulnerable to removal such as Gorilla Shaman and Chalice. It's up to the experts to decide if Furnace deserves a precious slot in CS/BS.

Anyway, I like this deck and you guys definitely taught all the people who claim(ed) that CS is dead a good Vintage lesson at Richmond!

[zeus-online]

I think furnace is great, however....i think there needs to be at least 2 in the deck for them to be effective....getting it later then turn 1 will usually result in it being useless as the yard is usually filled up rather quickly.

Cycling a card is pretty bad....you shouldnt really want to cycle anything! Say with rebuild, if i have it in hand, and i'm playing against...say fish...(preboard obviosly)...i usually end up never cycling it, as there is usually better things to spend mana on.

A cool aspect is that welder + furnace actually draws you cards while emptying the grave.

/Zeus

[Mantis]

Welder + Furnace is not cardadvantage. Remember, Welder trades two artifacts.

Cycling sucks, but cycling a dead card is always better than doing nothing with it at all.

[The Atog Lord]

I tested Furnace. It is slow to cycle, since it takes 2 mana. It is also too little, too late against many of the decks where Tormod's Crypt is great.

Though, Meandeck seems to like the card.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Frown, Furnace is way too slow.  Crypt is rarely dead, how many decks don't like the grave?  Gifts/Slaver/Combo all center one way or another on Will and the grave, and even Ubastax can abuse the grave.  Furnace is way too little way too late against all of these decks.

Yawgmoth's Will is fine if you're both in topdeck mode and you can BS, shuffle, play a fetchland and a mox from the grave, and maybe Thirst or BS.  You're probably so ahead on cards at this point that you should be able to win the control matchup.  Comboing out is nice, but you don't have to do so to win.  Just getting ahead enough so that you can counter and dig for slaver or whatever have you is enough.  Slaver has enough win conditions that a non-lethal Will is not crippling towards your game strategy. 

[Metman]

Phyrexian Furnace is way to slow IMO.  Removing the whole yard at once seems a bigger bomb than removing one a turn and than one at the time they Yawg/Animate.  I don't think the cycling effect is enough to warrent the inclusion.  I've tested the Crypt MD and it is quite strong considering the amount of games it ends once resolved.  It beats Dragon and Ichorid in one well timed activation and can come very close to completely ruining Long.dec when they are dependent on it to win.  It's great in the mirror and helps against Stax despite it being a favorable matchup.  I've liked it against most matchups but my meta is full of fish variants so I can't say that I included it.  It sits as a 2 of in the side and comes in a number of matches. 

My concern is the 4th big artifact to add to the main.  I currently have Slaver, Trike, Titan, and Crucible with Strip MD.  I've found the Crucible good.  It smoothes, thins, and protects the mana base.  It can also provide a cool infi-lock with an artifact land.  The problem is that it isn't a bomb.  It doesn't say, "I win!" when it resolves like the others can do depending on the matchup.  I've played around with Platinum Angel and a second Mindslaver but I'm not sure which is the right call.  Both left me wanting more.  A question for some of the better testers of BS is the number of big artifacts that you have tested.  I see most builds with four but have seen some find room for four plus a Crypt or four plus a Crucible.  I've also seen some run only three.  Does four just seem right, have you tested 5 or 6?

[Hi-Val]

I've been thinking about Jester's Cap. This is my conclusion: why would you want to Cap someone when, for a little more, you can actually Slave them? Cap is great unless they've got their win in hand or in the bin (try making Cap good against Gifts, for example). I think it's an effect that the deck doesn't really need.

[Anusien]

I've been thinking about Jester's Cap. This is my conclusion: why would you want to Cap someone when, for a little more, you can actually Slave them? Cap is great unless they've got their win in hand or in the bin (try making Cap good against Gifts, for example). I think it's an effect that the deck doesn't really need.

It seems like Cap should randomly be a very good Tinker target if you can force it through early.  I was looking at it maybe a year ago, and I found the biggest problem is that when you force a Tinker through early to get Cap, you're going to be lacking mana to activate it.
The other problem is that if you can force through an early Tinker against anything but maybe IT/GrimLong, you're winning anyway.  The only time you wouldn't prefer 7/10 or Colossus is maybe versus Oath, but that's favorable anyway.

[forests failed you]

I don't think that Jester's Cap is a good fit for the current Slaver builds.  I don't really care what spells are randomly lollying in my opponent's deck.  I'd just prefer to stop him card to card, hand to hand.  Sure, Cap can win you games by removing all of an opponent's win conditions.  But you don't actually have to remove all of your opponent's win conditions from the game to win the game.  All you actually have to do is deal 20 to them before they can to you. 


Slaver actually has answers to all of the cards in its opponent's decks;  I fail to see why capping is even remotely necessary to Slaver's game plan.

[SiegeX]

I was looking at Brian Fisher's build of CS and I noticed that he used Seat of the Synod rather than Darksteel Citadel.  Both land's sole purpose is to achieve slaver-lock via CoW.  However, one gives us much needed blue mana that can mean the difference for a turn 1 or 2 drain comming online with the drawback of being able to be wasteland/strip mined away; while the other gives us immunity to everything but Karn-type effects (being a 0/0 does kill it) in trade for colorless which CS has an abundance of already. 

Im thinking the Seat is probably the better choice given the fact that if we are going to achieve slaver-lock, we have a CoW out (or about to come out) so who cares if it gets wasted away, its just delaying the inevitable for one turn (maybe).  I say maybe because if my opp is sitting there with a wasteland in play and I have just drawn/tutored for Seat to complete the lock, Ill just weld in slaver by using a SoLomox and crack his wasteland targeting itself only to play the Seat on the next turn completing the lock.  Anyway this is all just thought experiments from looking back at past games ive played, im interested in more emperical evidence since ive only used Citadel.

[Juggernaut GO]

I would disagree with seat of the synod.  Even though the situation arises very rarely, darksteel citadel provides an unkillable(by almost all means) welder target.  The problem with seat of synod is that they can just hold a wasteland back untapped and keep your welder hostage an extra turn, or forever if they have 2 strip effects.  That turn may had made the difference whether or not you win the game with a slaver activation.  Looking at the artifact land slot as an uncounterable/unkillable welder target, and not an actual provider of colored mana may be the right answer.

[MoxMonkey]

Darksteel Citadel is much better because Gorilla Shamans like eating Seat of Synods.

Citadel for me is my way around Shamans in the mirror and against Stax.

[forests failed you]

Citadel is powerful.  I can't tell you how many times I've Vamped or DT'd for it in order to get around an annoying Shaman when I had a Welder.  "Slaver Lock" is almost always irrelevent in most match ups... that is you don't actually need it to win.  Citadel is in there because it almost always allows you to Weld when you absolutely have to Weld.  Plus I would be absolutely pissed if an opponent Shaman'd one of my land drops... That seems like a way to lose enough tempo to lose a game.

[Dralock]

I have used cap MD for a while now, and have never really had a problem winning once it resolves. I side it out vs fish and the like, but for the most part I can cap them to death while I get slaver online and pumping. I have yet to drop pentavus, but am starting to play without it and haven't really missed it, though I have always had the crucible / arti land (if not citadel, then factories, which rawk in my meta) included. Deep analysis has been an allstar since before gifts ungiven was big, and it continues to be for me.

Overall, I think cap has a relevant place in the deck till the meta changes.

[marcb]

I don't mean to sound redundant, but I'm really curious what people think about the burning slaver sideboard. What if burning wish was replaced by cunning wish so that deep analysis could be replaced by FoF, echoing ruin could be replaced by rack and ruin, rolling earthquake could be replaced by starstorm, and there would now be access to Fire/Ice, REB, echoing ruin, FoF, RandR, Stifle (if you play it), and starstorm Game 1. Obviously without any other changes we would loss access to Tendrils game 1, but this could be remedied by replacing say mystical tutor for Tendirls, and the mystical tutor could be moved to the SB to also be retrieved by Cunning Wish on Game 1.  Tendrils MD would make it slightly easier to go off Game 1.  My real question though is would this be an improvement to the SB, and would the access to other instants already in the burning slaver sideboard Game 1 be an advantage worth looking into? For those who play BS a lot, how much do you wish you had access to these instants in the SB Game 1, and is it worth the movement of say mystical tutor to the SB to get it? Also, is loosing burning wish, so that you can no longer retrieve a second Y. Will a big loss if we replace B wish for Cunning Wish. Really any thoughts would be appreciated.

Marc

[Rapalaman1]

Brian's SB is amazing! It's a plethora of diversity and quality one ofs, the sideboard alone makes me want to play BS because there are so many ways to approach game 2.

[Hi-Val]

I have used cap MD for a while now, and have never really had a problem winning once it resolves. I side it out vs fish and the like, but for the most part I can cap them to death while I get slaver online and pumping. I have yet to drop pentavus, but am starting to play without it and haven't really missed it, though I have always had the crucible / arti land (if not citadel, then factories, which rawk in my meta) included. Deep analysis has been an allstar since before gifts ungiven was big, and it continues to be for me.

Overall, I think cap has a relevant place in the deck till the meta changes.

Those times when you are Capping, would Mindslaver not have done the job?

Whenever I think about Capping a Slaver or Gifts deck, for example, I think about how much better it is to actually Slave them instead.

[Metman]

I have used cap MD for a while now, and have never really had a problem winning once it resolves. I side it out vs fish and the like, but for the most part I can cap them to death while I get slaver online and pumping. I have yet to drop pentavus, but am starting to play without it and haven't really missed it, though I have always had the crucible / arti land (if not citadel, then factories, which rawk in my meta) included. Deep analysis has been an allstar since before gifts ungiven was big, and it continues to be for me.

Overall, I think cap has a relevant place in the deck till the meta changes.

Those times when you are Capping, would Mindslaver not have done the job?

Whenever I think about Capping a Slaver or Gifts deck, for example, I think about how much better it is to actually Slave them instead.

Hi-Val, here you hit the nail on the head.  Everytime I used to side in a Cap or if somebody asked me why I didn't just run Cap MD I would ask myself the question you pose here.  Wouldn't I do more damage with a Mindslaver.  In every situation the answer is, "yes!"  In matchups where Slaver isn't that great is against heavy aggro hate decks and in those cases the Cap would be even weaker.  I've left the Caps to the NeoStax players.

On the Seat of Synod/Darksteel Citedal question, I have prefered the Synod for the simple reason that it produces blue.  I like nothing more than to see it in my opening hand with a Goblin or TfK.  It gets Mana Drain online that much quicker.  I have to be straightforward though, I don't see many Shamans in my meta.  I see just about everything but decks that support the Mox Monkey. 

[SiegeX]

Although you'll get no argument from me that slavering your opp is inherently more powerfull than busting a cap, I think there is still something to be said on the fact that cap can be hardcasted AND activated for the same price as hardcasting a slaver.  Without doing the math im fairly sure there is a significant difference in liklyhood on having 6 vs 10 mana on turn 1/2.  Im curious for those who played MD cap, did you find that you were capping more often than you normally would activate a slaver?  If so, perhaps that cap bought you a turn or two that you normally wouldn't have had allowing you to end the game via slaver. Just a thought.

[Dralock]

I have used cap MD for a while now, and have never really had a problem winning once it resolves. I side it out vs fish and the like, but for the most part I can cap them to death while I get slaver online and pumping. I have yet to drop pentavus, but am starting to play without it and haven't really missed it, though I have always had the crucible / arti land (if not citadel, then factories, which rawk in my meta) included. Deep analysis has been an allstar since before gifts ungiven was big, and it continues to be for me.

Overall, I think cap has a relevant place in the deck till the meta changes.

Those times when you are Capping, would Mindslaver not have done the job?

Whenever I think about Capping a Slaver or Gifts deck, for example, I think about how much better it is to actually Slave them instead.

Thats a tricky question. Since 6 mana is easier to come by than 10 (off power or a drain sink), its much simpler to cap early. Thats the biggest pro cap has main over the second slaver. Otherwise you need both a huge drain and all the power you can muster. On top of that, you can lay out a cap first turn off a lotus and a single land, then pop it with your regular land drop the next turn. That is, if you feel the meta makes an early cap feasible.

To answer the question directly, yes, mindslaver is ultimately more disruptive than a jester's cap activation. You cannot argue, though, that cap is not a worthy activation if slaver is not an option in that turn.

*edit* Ok, so i didn't read Siege's post first, still, I keep my response open for people to read. Mod it away if you feel that is necessary.

[Vertigo]

Nice to be able to discuss our favorite deck again!

Well I have been playing Burning Slaver for as long as the list have existed on these pages and I must confess that its ability go off using Tendrils is something that enables me to trash oath.

I have been toying around with the SB and put an imperial seal in it. Dont know what you guys think of that.

To AtogLord; firstly I think that you have found some very good answer cards, and I have had good testing results with both builds; however I must pose a question to you.

How come that you dont include burning wish?

And Rack and ruin how did that fare?

I do like your sb too and crypt is just amazing.

Thanks..

[The Atog Lord]

To AtogLord; firstly I think that you have found some very good answer cards, and I have had good testing results with both builds; however I must pose a question to you.

How come that you dont include burning wish?

And Rack and ruin how did that fare?

I do like your sb too and crypt is just amazing.

To answer your questions.
You ask me why I don't run Burning Wish, and then say that you like my sideboard. That sideboard wouldn't exist if I ran Burning Wish. My short answer to why I don't run Burning Wish is that it isn't good enough to include and warp the sideboard. My long answer can be found by looking earlier in the thread.

Rack and Ruin is wonderful. It is good in nearly every match. Against Gifts, most of them run Pithing Needles, which are very annoying. Stax has plenty of targets. The cards you're worried about against Fish are also actually artifacts. Even against a deck with no amazing targets, you can still hit their mana. It certainly has been doing more than its share in my deck.

[dicemanx]

I'm actually curious how both versions of CS fare against decks like TT confidant, IT and Grimlong. How critical was the 3 CotV SB at Richmond for instance? And is Burning Slaver able to cope against fast combo with the 3 SB Duresses and Crypt? Additionally, if you were entering a combo heavy field, how would the SBs change (if anything)?