What is the correct answer to control slaver?

[Vegeta2711]

And I've never had problems smashing any of my testing partners in the control mirror when they've run MD Gifts. Your point exactly? Like we could go onto specfic examples and shit all day, but that's not even really on topic.

Besides if we're going to boil the argument to:

The only reason people like TFK Gifts is because good players play it

Then whatever.

As for the actual topic itself.
Null Rod, Choke and Dark Confidant. Those are pretty much the 'best' threats against Control Slaver. Null Rod and Choke hit a huge amount of mana sources in the deck Meanwhile Bob basically means you can keep up with any card advantage wars CS wants to get into while not investing mana into the fight. That's huge. It also tends to make Tendrils a lot better against them just by eating 4-8 life points in attacks.

Plus all three continue to do damage until they're dealt with or at least circumvented in someway.

[dicemanx]

I see this all the time, but I don't understand this perspective at all.  I think the only reason that Kowal/Brassy gifts is preferred is because it has strong advocates who prefer it and perform and thus people see it doing well and assume it is the better build.

My claim is that its weaker as a control deck in Drain mirrors, not that its a weaker deck in general in comparison to Brassman style Gifts - this is after tourney experince with both builds.   

I've never had troulbe massively outdrawing my opponents in control mirrors with Meandeck Gifts.  And the number of people who've beat me while I was playing MD Gifts in tournament is precisely four in six tournaments that I've played it in.

 


The number of people that have beaten my Brassman Gifts in the past 8 events is 4, so I will conclude that BMGifts > MDGifts since 4 losses in 8 events > 4 losses in 6 events.

Yeah, not a very bright argument, huh.

Thirst fills a gap that doesn't exist and forces you to discard a card you don't want to discard.

Faulty analysis in my opinion. You cannot lament discarding a card that you would otherwise never draw in the first place. I would understand if you were advocating running a comparable draw engine such as, for example, Intuition AK, and make the claim that the pitching of a Mox to TfK outweighs the fact that you need to resolve 2 spells to draw 3 cards with Intuition AK (and since we're debating over the strengths of the two styles as control decks, pitching Moxes to TfK is hardly terrible - it impacts the deck's beatdown role, but not the control role as much). However, this argument is more along the lines of no draw engine vs draw engine. Scroll-AR is not a draw engine unless you feel that the first person to draw 3 cards in the drain mirror always wins or if you feel that your AR will always resolve after you scroll for it. MD Gifts might be a better beatdown deck which requires some aggressive play (owing to the 4 Gifts and Scrolls backed by Misd), but if it was the superior control deck then trust me, we'd all be playing it over BMGifts.

 

[Smmenen]

And I've never had problems smashing any of my testing partners in the control mirror when they've run MD Gifts. Your point exactly? Like we could go onto specfic examples and shit all day, but that's not even really on topic.

We could go into shit all day? 

I remember playing MD Gifts against Shay a ton of games and I had a very distinct advantage in our testing. I wanted to play Rich at origins, but he didn't make it to the finals to play me.

Faulty analysis in my opinion. You cannot lament discarding a card that you would otherwise never draw in the first place. I would understand if you were advocating running a comparable draw engine such as, for example, Intuition AK, and make the claim that the pitching of a Mox to TfK outweighs the fact that you need to resolve 2 spells to draw 3 cards with Intuition AK (and since we're debating over the strengths of the two styles as control decks, pitching Moxes to TfK is hardly terrible - it impacts the deck's beatdown role, but not the control role as much). However, this argument is more along the lines of no draw engine vs draw engine. Scroll-AR is not a draw engine unless you feel that the first person to draw 3 cards in the drain mirror always wins or if you feel that your AR will always resolve after you scroll for it. MD Gifts might be a better beatdown deck which requires some aggressive play (owing to the 4 Gifts and Scrolls backed by Misd), but if it was the superior control deck then trust me, we'd all be playing it over BMGifts.

Scroll AR is not hte draw engine.  That's the flaw. It's got multiple distinct draw engines.  But gifts is the central draw engine.  That's why I have four Gifts.  I use Gifts like BBS used Fact - aggressively and many times.  It could just be that people play BM gifts more frequently because they see it more frequently in top 8s because of the people who play it promote it.  No one is promoting meandeck gifts even though it outperformed BM gifts in my last metagame analysis in December. 
 
Discarding a mox to Thirst is certainly lamentable because you are assuming I wouldn't have seen those cards. 

That's why I cut Thirsts when I designed Meandeck Gifts.  Discarding an artifact was terrible. 

I was going to put this into an article, but I wrote this a few months ago - sometime in 2005, so I'll just post it in another thread here.

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27985.new#new

[forests failed you]

As for the actual topic itself.
Null Rod, Choke and Dark Confidant. Those are pretty much the 'best' threats against Control Slaver. Null Rod and Choke hit a huge amount of mana sources in the deck Meanwhile Bob basically means you can keep up with any card advantage wars CS wants to get into while not investing mana into the fight. That's huge. It also tends to make Tendrils a lot better against them just by eating 4-8 life points in attacks.

Null Rod - Yeah its a threat and its good, but that is why Slaver decks have adapted to be able to deal with it.  Mox Monkey, Rack and Ruin, Echoing Ruin, Echoing Truth, Goblin Welder are all castable from the maindeck to make sure that the deck doesn't get hosed by this card.  not to mention Slaver can still execute a Tinker with Rod in play and attack with huge guys, or control the game Via Mana Drains and Draw Spells until it can actualy remove the Rod.  Also, keep in mind my build is designed to actually be able to function with a Null Rod in play.  I have COW to build up Mana, Shamans to hit opposing Moxes so that Rod can be Welded out,  Titan to hit my opponents lands, and Duplicant as a Weldable removal engine that functions under a Rod.  Rod is not particularly effective against Slaver the way that it once was because the good Slaver players and innovators have all adapted to play around it.

Choke -  choke is a beating because Slaver only has E truth to remove it.  However, I have won many a game playing around an on board Choke.  The first disadvantage of Choke is that it is green, and green sucks.  The second disadvantage of choke is that it is a three costed enchantment which means that itis a prime Mana Drain target.  Oath tapping out to cast a turn two or three choke on their main phase can just as easily win Slaver the game as it can win Oath the game.  Not to mention that decks that play Choke tend to have weak mana bases which makes the weaker against the field in general.  So let me get this straight, if you play a deck with a weak mana base that isn't heavy on Islands (perhaps the best land in Type one?)  and tap out on turn two or three in your mainphase you can play a card that hoses Slaver?  Get serious, this is only a mediocre board card.

Dark Confidant:  Get serious.  CS is more than capable of killing a random 2/1 idiot post board.  Not to mention if you are tapping down to play a creature like confidant that nets you one card per turn Slaver can just out tempo you with TFKs and broken spells.  TFK digs three a turn, confidant one...  When Slaver chains into draw it just wins. 

Okay, so here are the cards that actually beat Slaver.  All of these cards are actually more problematic for Slaver than Null Rod, Dark Confidant, and/or Choke.

1.  Duress
2.  Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast
3.  Accumulated Knowledge x4 in the maindeck.
4. Gorilla Shaman
5.  Xantid Swarm

And if you are wondering why;  it is because 4 out of 5 of them cost ONE mana;  which generates tempo, which is where Slaver is the weakest.  If you can out tempo Slaver you can win the game. 

[Vegeta2711]

I wasn't talking about post-board with regards to Confidant, but ok... also most combo doesn't really care how how much tempo you build up since the entire plan is basically just playing a bunch of overwhelming threats in a single turn or dropping a large Desire.

And Choke being a medicore board card? Haha. I know 5c Stax fell out of style, but wow, apparently nobody remembers how good the deck was.

Funny one saying Gorilla Shaman or AK are actual threats though. Especially after talking about how easy it is to kill small guys.

[forests failed you]

Haha indeed.

The problem is that if somebody resolves a Shaman and you kill it, the Shaman takes down two Moxes with it.  That is a Three for one with tempo loss.  Haha.

[dicemanx]

Scroll AR is not hte draw engine.  That's the flaw. It's got multiple distinct draw engines.  But gifts is the central draw engine.

Gifts isn't a draw engine - its a beatdown machine. And that is not criticizing it - just highlighting a fundamental difference between the two archetypes. Getting 3 cards for one less mana is far more important in a control-control war then getting 2 with a 4 mana spell (or wasting a turn getting your "draw engine" with your Scrolls.

 

 

[Smmenen]

Scroll AR is not hte draw engine.  That's the flaw. It's got multiple distinct draw engines.  But gifts is the central draw engine.

Gifts isn't a draw engine - its a beatdown machine. And that is not criticizing it - just highlighting a fundamental difference between the two archetypes. Getting 3 cards for one less mana is far more important in a control-control war then getting 2 with a 4 mana spell (or wasting a turn getting your "draw engine" with your Scrolls.

 

I would agree with you if you actually got 3 cards for 3 mana.  But you don't.  You get 2 cards for 3 mana and what's worse, you often have to keep one of the worse cards when weighed against each other simply becuase you need ot keep the best card.  In addition, Gifts is a source of card advatnage and huge tempo, if used properly.  The thing is that we keep talking about draw engines.  That's a loose term.  The only thing that matters is tempo and card advatnage.  meandeck gifts creates that much better.  I can get way ahead in card advantage and will sooner and thus win the game - even in control mirrors.

If you've read my articles on meandeck gifts, then you know that I think the proper role of meandeck gifts in control mirrors is control NOT beatdown.  I wrote extensively about the MDG and Slaver match here:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10315.html

Half the article talks about the slaver match.

There is also a huge amount of counter intutive decisions ot be made.

For example, here is a criticla excerpt of that article:

Let's say your hand is:

Mox Pearl,
Island,
Polluted Delta,
Mana Vault,
Brainstorm,
Merchant Scroll,
Force of Will, and
Gifts Ungiven.

Given this position, you have the opportunity to play a turn 1 Merchant Scroll for Ancestral Recall and play both Ancestral Recall and Gifts Ungiven on turn 2. I believe this seeming intuitive play to be incorrect in the Control Slaver match, game one. Why? Because you only need one bomb. Here, you have two. The idea behind using two is to double your chances of resolving a bomb, chances which are further increased by the fact that you have Force of Will to protect them. But at what cost? You are sinking many resources into these plays that you don't need to spend. Moreover, you are giving up the chance to stop your opponent from Tinkering or resolving Thirst for Knowledge on their second turn. The result is that the game becomes a race that you lose if they can get Mindslaver into play or into their graveyard with Goblin Welder in play.

In my view, the proper play is to Merchant Scroll for Mana Drain. Therefore, on turn 2 you will be holding up Mana Drain with Force of Will backup.

So the game will look like this:

Turn One:
You play: Mox Pearl, Island, Merchant Scroll for Mana Drain

Turn Two:
Play the Fetchland and pass the turn.

[The Atog Lord]

I wanted to play Rich at origins, but he didn't make it to the finals to play me.

It's true. Keeper took me down in the semifinals that tournament. However, I did play against quite a few Meandeckers with Meandeck Gifts at that Origins, and had very good results against them.

[Smmenen]

I wanted to play Rich at origins, but he didn't make it to the finals to play me.

It's true. Keeper took me down in the semifinals that tournament. However, I did play against quite a few Meandeckers with Meandeck Gifts at that Origins, and had very good results against them.

You played against Kevin, who made a play mistake and cost him a match he shoudl have won.  You slaved him and he pitched Mystical when h didn't have to he could have mysticaled for a counterspell.  You would have slaved him once and neve again becaus of his needle and then he would have won the match.  You did beat Roland, I think, but I don't think you played other Gifts lists. 

[The Atog Lord]

I may have played Hi Val, but that's neither here nor there.

As with most of your decks, Steve, your Meandeck Gifts list is very focused, and very very good at doing one thing. It is, I won't deny, faster than Brassman's lists in many ways. However, this narrow focus comes with a price. Tormod's Crypt is very difficult for your build in particular to recover from. I know, I know, you _can_ still win once Crypt hits the board. But it isn't nearly as easy as winning before Crypt hits. That one card added to Control Slaver's maindeck really changes the matchup quite a bit..

Let me add this, on the matter of threats to Control Slaver:

Choke and Null Rod both serve to, with a single card, shut down the mana base of Control Slaver to no small degree. Sure, neither card guarantees a win, and neither card alone will end the game. However, both cards serve to slow down Control Slaver quite a bit, because they hit the deck's mana base. If this tempo boost can be backed up by threats, Control Slaver might lose before it can recover.

On the matter of Bob. He is not unlike Library of Alexandria. If not removed, Bob will win the long game. This puts Control Slaver in a position where it must do one of two things: either remove the threat, or go off soon. The former may nor may not be even possible depending on the build. The later is oftentimes the best option, and Bob won't matter if the Control Slaver player goes off soon. However, Control Slaver prefers not to be put in a position where it is forced to become a combo deck before it is ready. Even attempting to "race" Bob with draw is an uncertain strategy, since you are tying up your mana to do what the opponent is doing for free. So, in short, Bob alone won't beat CS, but it can put CS in an uncomfortable possition. Unlike Choke and Null Rod, however, Bob doesn't prevent the CS player's deck from working.

1.  Duress
2.  Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast
3.  Accumulated Knowledge x4 in the maindeck.
4. Gorilla Shaman
5.  Xantid Swarm

Duress/REB: Sure, these cards are fine against Control Slaver. I board them in. They don't "beat" Control Slaver, however. They can help a control deck better executing its plan of shutting down Control Slaver's spells, which is a fine way to stop Control Slaver. Unlike Choke or Null Rod, which single-handedly hurt Control Slaver's development, these cards simply trade for one spell.

Xantid Swarm: This guy can be annoying. He creates a window for a combo player to go off, and makes future counters drawn less worthwhile. Given a proper board plan with Crypts, Chalices, and Duresses, however, his impact can be diminished. Still, quite a fine card against Control Slaver.

AK: I'm not sure there is any good deck that's playing this card right now. Control Slaver was designed to beat up on Tog, which itsself ran this engine. I'm not quite sure where Brian's fear of this clunky engine comes from.

Gorilla Shaman: I keep hearing people say he's amazing against Control Slaver. And he is. Unless, of course the Control Slaver player isn't terrible. I've had this little monkey played against me more times than I can count, and I can count on one hand the number of games he's actually mattered. Control Slaver can hold back its artifacts until they're needed, and the Monkey doesn't stop Library, Tinker (play artifact and sacrifice before passing priority), or Yawgmoth's Will -- and these cards end the Control Slaver mirror match more than anything else. So, Mox Monkey doesn't beat Control Slaver, but instead changes how the opponent needs to play. Your red mana is likely better spent REB'ing a Thirst.

[Mr. Type 4]

So let me get this straight, if you play a deck with a weak mana base that isn't heavy on Islands (perhaps the best land in Type one?

@Demars: So a mana base is weak because it doesn't contain islands?  That's a pretty absurd statement.  Mana bases are weak when they don't make you the mana you need, not because they don't contain the card "island".  Arguably, if your deck doesn't have blue in it, it's validity will be questioned, but there are 5 coor mana bases that utilize blue cards without playing islands and are far from "weak".  I do agree with you that green is among the weaker colors, although no as weak as White, although it does not outright suck.  What I think you intend to say in that paragraph is the OATH sucks, on which I wholeheartedly agree.

[forests failed you]

1.  If you are playing Choke in your deck it almost certainly means you are playing a five color mana base.

2.  If you are playing a five color mana base with choke in your board it almost certainly means you are playing either a. Oath, or b. 5c Stax.  Or, they are playing something rogue;  and who fing cares?

3.  Stax has a hard time consistently casting a three costed enchantment and having it resolve; and Oath has much better things to do than dick around casting choke and getting it drained for the lose.

My point is:  Decks that play green tend to have stretched mana bases, and or five color mana bases.  Five color mana bases cause you to lose to more streamlined mana bases, and to wasteland decks.  Therefore, decks that splash and contain choke in the board are at an outright disadvantage because their mana base will tend to be weaker and they will tend to play less basic lands. 

Most importantly, Choke costs three mana, and can only be cast at sorcery speed.  Drain target anyone?  You beat Slaver by not walking into Mana Drain like a bafoon; and instead out tempoing and stunting their Mana and their Draw spells.  Choke is about as Savage V Slaver as boarding in Boseiju, who shelters all, and Persecute FTW.  I am not impressed, and it has never beaten me in the many times I've had it boarded against me.  It either got Drained and I won, or it resolved and I bounced it because against Stax or Oath I bring in more bounce anyways.

Just my opinion.