Deft Mongoose

[Marco]

A nice anti-blue card in the same vein as River Boa and Blurred Mongoose:

Deft Mongoose
{G}
Creature – Mongoose
2/1
Islandwalk
Protection from instants

[Marco]

Current Wording:

Deft Mongoose
{G}
Creature – Mongoose
2/1
Islandwalk
Protection from instants (Deft Mongoose only has protection from instants while it's in play.)

[Matt]

This needs reminder text that you can still counter this, since the protection doesn't apply until it's in play.

[Norm4eva]

No it doesn't.  Protection is mostly considered an "expert level" keyword, the only exception of which in Type 2 is Paladin en-Vec. As an example, Petrified Wood-kin has no such reminder text.

[Matt]

Wood-Kin doesn't because it says right on the card, "Petrified Wood-Kin can’t be countered." Dur!

From Gruuling Workout

BD 4/13: I think many players won't know whether they can counterspell this or not.
ps 4/19: i'd say many players would assume you can't.
Del 4/25: Could just add "CARDNAME can't be countered” to this guy to avoid the question (and make it clear that protection from instants isn't enough).

[Norm4eva]

Mehhhh.  I still say it's frivolous.  In terms of functionality there's a BIG difference between "can't be countered" and "protection from instants" so if the intention was not to get around Counterspell etc, then no such text belongs.  As it stands it's not strictly a blue hoser anyway, obviously things like StP/Bolt/Terror just bounce off, yet Psychic Purge or pingers pwn it.  If it's meant to be a blue hoser give it pro blue and "can't be countered" instead of Islandwalk and "pro-instants".  Mongeese tend to sport the no-target ability which again, isn't just a blue hoser.

[Marco]

In the "Official Rulings" for Petrified Wood-Kin it states:

"Protection from instants" means instant spells can't target it, damage that would be dealt to it by instant sources is prevented, and it can't be the target of abilities of instants (such as Haunt).

and

Protection from instants works only while Petrified Wood-Kin is in play. It can be targeted by instant spells or abilities of instant cards while it's on the stack or in any other zone but in play.

I think this is pretty intuitive (and Forsaken Wastes doesn't have reminder text that you lose 5 life if you counter it), but if you really think it needs reminder text how about:

Deft Mongoose
{G}
Creature – Mongoose
2/1
Islandwalk
Protection from instants (Protection from instants works only while Deft Mongoose is in play.)

[The Atog Lord]

Just once, how about giving a Mongoose protection from snakes?

[Godder]

Don't be silly, that's far too realistic.

[Marco]

Just once, how about giving a Mongoose protection from snakes?

Good idea, but that's another card.

[Matt]

Of course there's a big functionality, but it's to clarify the card for new players. Who barely understand protection as it is. And yes, even in expert-level sets, you need to think about new players.

[Norm4eva]

I'm pretty sure they don't given "can't be the target" any similar reminder text, which might as well cause the same confusion; being pro-instant is virtually the same, save global instant damage spells or some other random junk.  So if the traditional 'Mongoose' ability doesn't require reminder over being Mana Leak'd, what makes protection less intuitive?

[Ephraim]

It's true that this card doesn't need reminder text and it's also true that it would probably benefit from having it.  It would not be a burden on the card to have "It can still be countered." on it or even a somewhat lengthier explanation that protection from instants doesn't do anything until the creature is on the table.  If there's a good reason to put it on there and no good reason not to, why not have reminder text? (So far, your arguments don't seem to say that reminder text is a bad idea -- only that it isn't necessary.)

[Norm4eva]

I just think it falls under the same catagory as, say, the particulars of assigning trample damage or what paying a morph cost actually does, etc.  For example, while morph has its own reminder text, it doesn't explicitly remind anyone that it doesn't use the stack.  I guess it's an issue of putting more rules text on a card than is warranted.  There's a lot of cards that could potentially benefit from having reminder text but sometimes you just need to expect a player to read the rules for sanity's sake.
I don't mean to sound militant or anything, it just seems like extra rules text that doesn't need to exist.  If it were like, in the Core Set, then sure, but our set is arguably graduated from that.

[nataz]

Just once, how about giving a Mongoose protection from snakes?

but why would a Mongoose be on a plane?

[Marco]

Alright, current wording updated:

Deft Mongoose
{G}
Creature – Mongoose
2/1
Islandwalk
Protection from instants (This creature can't be targeted by instant spells, damage that would be dealt to it by instant sources is prevented, and it can't be the target of abilities of instants.)

Should I change the name and/or creature type?

Edit: It occurred to me that this reminder text still doesn't address the issue of whether or not this can be countered by an instant spell. I must say that I agree with Norm4eva that cards with "~this~ can't be the target of spells or abilities" don't require any reminder text that they can be countered, so why should this?

[Illuvatar Reborn]

Just once, how about giving a Mongoose protection from snakes?

but why would a Mongoose be on a plane?

because the sequel to "snakes on a plane" is "Mongeese on a plane"

[Matt]

Norm, you seem to be confusing reminder text with rules text. They aren't the same thing. Reminder text is just shorthand - look at the text for a madness spell, it's nothing like the actual rules text.

Also, another aspect of the art of using reminder text: it's used far more often on commons and uncommons, but will be omitted on rares, even when it's displaying a new keyword that not everyone will know what to do with (see [card]Golgari Grave-Troll[/card] or [card]Seize the Soul[/card].

Also, reminder text has the funny property that new players read it and benefit from it, while experienced players don't even see it. It's win-win, and not really the same case as adding more rules text (the italics serve an important function).

I propose the reminder (Deft Mongoose only has protection from instants while it's in play.), which addresses the counterability while being nice and short.

but why would a Mongoose be on a plane?

To feed on all the snakes, obviously.

[Marco]

...another aspect of the art of using reminder text: it's used far more often on commons and uncommons, but will be omitted on rares, even when it's displaying a new keyword that not everyone will know what to do with (see [card]Golgari Grave-Troll[/card] or [card]Seize the Soul[/card]...

Also, reminder text has the funny property that new players read it and benefit from it, while experienced players don't even see it. It's win-win, and not really the same case as adding more rules text (the italics serve an important function).

I propose the reminder (Deft Mongoose only has protection from instants while it's in play.), which addresses the counterability while being nice and short.

Matt, I think it's less that those two cards you mentioned are rare, and more that they have too much rules text to have reminder text fit on the card. Rare cards typically have more rules text than common or uncommon cards.

It was a toss up for me between "Protection from instants works only while Deft Mongoose is in play" and "Deft Mongoose only has protection from instants while it's in play", but I went with Matt's suggestion.

[Ephraim]

Matt, I think it's less that those two cards you mentioned are rare, and more that they have too much rules text to have reminder text fit on the card. Rare cards typically have more rules text than common or uncommon cards.

Part of the reason that rare cards can have more rules text than commons and uncommons is because they don't require reminder text.  I'm also sure I've read in one of MaRo's columns that they're okay putting keyword mechanics on rare cards without reminder text at least partly because they show up less frequenly and are therefore not responsible for "teaching" the mechanic.

[Marco]

24 hour clock.

[Anusien]

Just once, how about giving a Mongoose protection from snakes?

but why would a Mongoose be on a plane?

How do you think they get the snakes off the plane?
Anyway, I'm not interrupting the clock, I just wanted to say that I agree with the reminder text the way it's written.

Part of the philosophy behind remainder texting commons and not rares is the idea that when you crack open a bunch of packs, you're going to see the reminder text on Haunt long before you ever see a rare with Haunt on it.  As Ephraim said, the rares are to showcase mechanics, not to teach them.  This is the difference between a card like Pulse of the Forge and Electrostatic Bolt.  (I'm not expressing myself well today, but...).  The very basic spells of each set (the Shock, the Wrench Mind, the Repeal) are about showcasing and explaining the new mechanics of the set because the players will see them much much more often.
That's slightly a tangent, but I think it gets the point across.

[Matt]

Closed and added.[/color]