Revisiting Stax

[madmanmike25]

Sorry, but I for one am of the belief that goblin welder is too good not to run.  While he surely is not NECESSARY(as has been proven), he is super utility.  You can argue that ancestral recall is also not REQUIRED(it is however an auto-include if playing blue).  Besides, haven't more Stax-based decks won T8 with goblin welder than without??(correct me if I am wrong)

You are talking about matchups vs. slaver and gifts? Both run at least 8 counterspells.  Goblin welder gives Stax the resilience it needs.  Welder gets that artifact u want in the game regardless.  Screws up Heavy D as well(DSC).  Since MOST tier one decks do run some form of counterspell I think at least 3 should be in there.  In fact, my opinion is that if a Stax deck needs only ONE creature, goblin welder would be it.  You can debate over Titan, Karn, Trike, Razor, but i gotz to have my gobbos.  Besides, he makes kick ass ashtrays....
mike

EDIT:  btw thank you for the free article

[Disburden]

3 Eon Hubs
4 Dampening Matrix
3 Razormane masticore

Rather savage.  Eon Hub would seem like a good in-out for smokestax against Stax, Oath, Ichorid, and Fish (against kataki/flux).. all decks where the permenant count is rather in-consiquentional as compaired to how much actually happens durring the upkeep.  Against Stax you I had the Matrix to shut of welders and mox monkey and heratics and karn all in one card.  Not bad.  Lastly I don't know any aggro deck that can race the Razormane and hope to win.  He is an absolute crazy house.  If you add in Eon Hub he just gets uber broken.  Eon Hub + Razore mane = GG fish.

I think to fill the deck up with Brown artifacts in the sideboard is a mistake. This deck wants to run as many colored spells in the side that it possibly can to enhance the matchups. Like Steve said in the last article on Welderless Stax, Cron may lose game one 50% of the time, but his board destroys you so much games two and three it won't matter. All his sideboard cards are useful in at least two different matchups each.

Against welders you can run:
Hanna's Custody
Ground seal
Old man of the sea
Meddling mage
Pithing needle

Against combo you have:

pyrostatic pillar
Duress


Fish:
Old man of the sea
Pryoclasm
Drop of honey
Ghostly prison or Propaganda

if you expect Colossus all day you can run:

2 Diabolic Edict
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Propaganda/ Ghostly Prison
Gilded Drake?

What I am trying to say is, if you want to build a list with 5c bombs and no welders then you want your sideboard to be packed full of colorful tools, not a large amount of artifacts, and we are talking about 5c welderless Stax in the thread.

[frolll]

Since the sideboard is so damn adaptable to any metagame and could support cards with kinda heavy non-workshop mana, the MD could exactly do the same.

Stax must be a deck built around the whole idea of being totally nuts against the 2-3 decks that make the meta, so if the meta of yours is really other, this would make the Smemmen's list pretty damn worse.
But, that set aside, the 5c Stax is really a natural hate-haters deck.
I mean, it is just so hard to hate it perfectly for its own game plan could even change on game 2, thanks to the side that really shines here, allowing to fin any answers you need when you need them since you're running Seal/VT/DT/trall/Rotation/Tinker.

I've actually cut the sole Null Rod for a Tinker, maybe it's all my bad . I'm still don't really know if it's just good or a little irrelevant stuff.

You could customize the side as more as you feel, and unless you don't feel comfortable with your side, keep doing so.

BTW, if in your meta there is no obvious need to MD Eye of Chaos and Choke, you could also just play 4 Null Rod/Tangle Wire/Jester's Cap/others...

By doing so you'll manage to adapt your deck to the meta, which is IMHO the thing that Stax is so good at.

[Smmenen]

The point was to illustrate the approach to stax.  I made a decision based upon what I felt was the best way to meet those two principles.  You can disagree, as you clearly do, with the individual card choices, but the approach is undeniable.  What do you think would be the way to approach the deck then?  How would you rank the cards that I ranked in the first post?

I'm not sure what you mean by "the approach is undeniable". If you mean that metagaming is important against specific top tier archetypes, then I would agree with you.

What you say here is true, but I want to empahsize that I'm going beyond what one would normally consider to be "metagaming" in the sense of a "tweak."  I'm suggesting that people build stax from the ground up with the metagame in mind instead of building stax to be objectively most powerful.

The difference is important.  With just a metagamed stax, you move a few slots around.  With a metagame designed stax, you draw up a list focusing on the lock components you want to use to beat partcular decks.  Even if the end result is the same, the approach is significantly different.

However you focus on specific card choices at the cost of cards which I feel are very important not only to the Gifts/CS match up, but help you compete against Stax mirrors as well. I am very well aware that Cron was successful with a Welderless version of Stax, and you have enjoyed some measure of success as well. I would contend however that those successes came before Gifts really developed as an archetype and before people gained some measure of competency with the deck. With respect to the CS match up, I'm getting conflicting messages. You claim that the Welder war isn't an important battle to wage vs Welder, and yet I seem to get the impression from CS players and Stax players that CS does so well vs Stax precisely because Welder adds some measure of defense in addition to the standard reactive control package. Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in between, or perhaps you're right after all and Welder really isn't critical, but the proposed build doesn't seem like its the answer.

Your confusing how good Welder is in Control Slaver with how good it is in Stax.  Welders in the Slaver v. Stax matchup are not symmetrical.

There is no welder war.  That assumes taht they are symmetrically or somewhat evenly powered.  They are not.  Weldres are enormously superior in the Slaver deck. The only function of Welder in Stax is to weld out a countered spell or to try and offset your opponents use of Welder on your artifacts.  Welders in Slaver can bounce your atifacts back and forth, they can weld back in Lotus and mana acclelratnts and cards like Trike, Pnetavus, and Slaver. 

 My understanding is that you generally sb out Welders when playing Stax against Slaver.  I can't say for sure, but lots of Slaver lists had cards like Lava Dart, etc and the big clincher is that you don't want the SLaver player ot be able to recur Slaver on your Welder. 

To be Slaver, it is critically important that you overwhelm the Welder.  Killing it ourright is often just too difficult.  I find it actually ins't that hard to use a combination fo lock parts ot just overwhelm it. 

So how would I approach the deck then?

I think that there are two choices here. I find that there isn't anything particularly wrong with the current UbaStax and 5CStax builds - Shop decks are inherently wild and unpredictable, and as you indicate they rely on getting the right answers at the right time because they have no draw engine to speak of and cannot simply dig deep to find a specific solution. The decks aim for busted hands with multiple threats and tons of mana within the first 3 turns or so - your sample hands are perfect examples of what the deck *hopes* to be seeing, but unfortunately cannot do so with any degree of consistency. I have played Shop decks quite a lot, something that most people are probably not aware of, and they were always difficult to get to behave for me. Having combo or control win through Trinisphere, CotV and Null Rod leaves one completely exasperated, knowing that you executed your gameplan and it *still* came up short.

However it isn't necessarily correct to try to start replacing one big bomb with stronger but more conditional bombs to try to ensure that you will win. You're not going to gain much in the process; instead you exacerbate the "flaw" associated with the archetype, because results will be even more erratic. From my perspective, to win events with Shop you have to hit a hot streak and have it carry you through to the end. Sometimes you'll be an unwitting spectator, drawing conditional cards off the top non plussed that the right conditions aren't present and go down in flames.

The second choice isn't designed to seek an ideal build of Stax, or to even begin upon a quest of finding a build that can "beat CS and Gifts". I think that the ideal build of Stax that can beat Gifts and Slaver is one that is never static and always keeps changing from event to event, because even an OBJECTIVELY weaker Stax build can be ideal if it has surprise value. For example, I said that your example build suffers from one tragic flaw against Gifts, and that happens to be the Tinker-DSC plan. However, if I wasn't aware of what exactly your build contained, that vulnerability would be masked by the fact that devoting resources to Tinker isn't really a strong plan at all against certain configurations of Stax, particularly those that run Welders, Duplicants, even StP and Balance. This means that you can potentially get away with making yourself entirely vulnerable to Tinker - a case of the threat (to deal with DSC) being stronger than the execution. So long as your opponent is unclear as to what your resources are, you can gain virtual threats - threats that are non existent but they limit your opponent's strategy nonetheless.

I would be inclined to believe you, but I remember reading something quite similar in your Vintage forum analysis of Gifts while I was still secretly working on Meandeck Gifts.  At the time, there was something of a lack of imagination about the potential and range of potential options that Gifts could use.  It's not that I think you're wrong, but your approaches outlined above are not at all counter to my project here.  The list was merely exemplary.  The appraoch outlined is what is important.  I suggested that people design stax from the ground up to beat their metagame.  I also think that you overestimate how conditional In the Eye is, for example.  What is it not effective against aside from the Workshop mirror?  IT?  Pwned.  Choke even pwns IT. 

So paradoxically, the moment you try to seek the truth (on these forums ofr example where exposure is high) and find the ideal way to contend with Gifts and CS, the further away you'll get from it. I think the recent UbaCap deck is a perfect example of this - the moment that deck got published after gaining a measure of success, and the moment the builders started on their quest to find the ideal configuration, the weaker the build got. Cap isn't a mere "metagame decision" - its an entire overhaul of strategy with a focus on specific lock pieces and control elements. But its weakened drastically the moment any list is finalized, because at that moment the opposition gets to decide how to best meet that strategy. FFY echoed this sentiment with regards to SBing. He claimed that its not so critical to have set SB plans against certain archetypes - in fact, it might be better to alter your SB plans periodically to keep opponents guessing. I've been doing something similar with my Gift SB. I personally feel that the Oath conversion isn't objectively best by any stretch, and I've played other highly contentious SB plans beofre, like running a full complement of Vaults and Fusillades in the SB. I attribute my success to not being predictable, and I also don't concern myself with seeking absolute truth because again, it is counterproductive to do so. Another example - look at JuggernautGO and his "piles" that he pilots to victories. Look terrible right? He has found the secret though to success with the archetype in my opinion. 

I think he's found one route to success, but certainly not the only one, or even arguably the best route. 

So how would I approach building Stax then? First, I would start with two basic premises:

1) The objectively best build is inferior to a build that is weaker or has questionable card choices but has surprise value.
2) A player consistently playing a particular archetype benefits gains virtual threats/answers via periodic rotation of individual cards or strategies

Because of these two premises, Stax to me isn't an archetype categorized as three distinct decks (5C Stax, UbaStax, UbaCap). It's an archetype that is defined by having a set mana base to which you can add from a pool of "units" - a unit being a package of cards with a high degree of synergy. An example of a "unit" is Uba Mask-Bazaar-Welder. Another example is "Smokestack-Tangle Wire-Welder". Obviously some units overlap. I also don't discount aggressive strategies (Juggernauts particularly) as too much of a departure from Stax and hence out of scope here. There are good transformational possibilities that allow the transition from Stax to Shop aggro which might be critical to swing some match-ups.

The next step is to recognize that while you should have a large density of artifacts to exploit the strength of MWShop, there isn't a single card completely sacred to Stax. Not CotV. Not Null Rod. Not Smokestack. Not Welder. We have seen Stax decks making t8s at major events lacking some of these cards. What you believe is absolutely necessary to combat a certain archetype can be your downfall. Look at CotV and Null Rod, and how critical they are perceived to be in order to defeat fast combo and fight control.

I did a huge analysis of Stax for SCG in Dec.

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10983.html

The article was premium, but is now free.  It took me an enormous amoutn of time to compile all of the Stax lists (I didi t by hand in Excel). 

Here were the unanimous card choices:

Unanimous Card Choices:
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

3 Smokestack
2 Crucible of Worlds

And the composite list:

Composite Stax List

1 Black Lotus 32/36
1 Mana Crypt 36/36

1 Mana Vault 34/36
1 Sol Ring 36/36

1 Mox Emerald 36/36
1 Mox Jet 34/36
1 Mox Pearl 35/36
1 Mox Ruby 34/36
1 Mox Sapphire 36/36

4 Mishra's Workshop 36/36
1 Tolarian Academy 36/36
1 Strip Mine 36/36
4 Wasteland 30/36
1 Barbarian Ring 19/36
2 City of Brass 14/36
2 Gemstone Mine 14/36
3 Bazaar of Baghdad 14/36

1 Trinisphere 35/36
4 Smokestack 33/36
3 Crucible of Worlds 31/36

3 Tangle Wire 22/36

4 Chalice of the Void 21/36
3 Sphere of Resistance 16/36
3 Uba Mask 15/36


4 Goblin Welder 30/36
1 Gorilla Shaman 26/36
1 Karn 31/36
1 Sundering Titan 29/36
1 Triskelion 24/36
1 Duplicant 23/36

1 Tinker 21/36
1 Ancestral Recall 20/36

1 Crop Rotation 14/36
2 Thirst for Knowledge 14/36

What i'm saying is that I agree with you in principle taht no card is sacred, i think that once you cut Smokestacks, you no longer have Stax and you have somethign else.  I think that in partciular, a lack of Trinisphere, Smokesatck, and some small number of Crucibles mean that you have Stax.  Those cards are sacred. 

And just how successful are they? Not very. Decks like Gifts and IT have risen to the occasion and adapted, precisely because the Stax deck has remained static and left its chin exposed. How do they win? They have the ability to sit on their basics and fetches, and utilize their immense tutoring power to fetch a Rebuild (or Hurkyl's) and that damn card absolutely wrecks house. So how can Stax cope? You outlined a perfectly awesome way to do so - via non-artifact lock pieces like Choke or In the Eye of Chaos. So wait, didn't I express my disdain for your approach? Not at all. I'm attacking the process you set out to accomplish this, rather than the individual card choices themselves.

The process I set out appears to be coterminous with what you are saying.  I'm telling people to build their stax lists from the ground up and simply demonstraing how I'd do it.

Another way to fight against such defensive strategy is adopt an agressive approach. While control and combo are fixated on defending themselves against Wastelands and having ways to defeat Null Rod and CotV, they can expose themselves to either losing via fast beats backed by enough disruption (Juggernaut plan perhaps coupled with Pyrostatic Pillar) or by Jester's Cap. If we're going to sacrifice slots for conditional cards, we can also consider a complement of counters - REBs and/or Pyroblasts. There is a final possibility - Stax has an option of being a turn 2 combo deck. There are at least 3 different instant-win combo approaches that can be used: Time Vault-Lodestone Myr, Time Vault Fusillade, and Metalworker-Staff. A deck like Hyper-MUD has used two of these with some success. So have decks with just the Staff-Worker combo. These decks still overlap with Stax because they use a fair share of prison components like Smokestack, Tangle Wire, CotV, and Trinisphere/SoR; they may be "weaker" than traditional Stax, but they have gained some measure of success because of the surprise factor.

It is honestly beyond me how people can make top 8 with Juggernauts, but my teammates have done so, even though I don't understand how. 

Which plan out of the four is best is almost beside the point. It's more important to keep them guessing so that any given plan has increased likelihood of succeeding.

So as an initial starting point, we might as well make a list of potential candidates for main deck inclusion (aside from a mana base that's almost set in stone, apart from colored sources that can either be 5C or mono-R). We won't consider the SB yet. We'll also note that there is absolutely no sacred cow in Stax, but its a given that there should ideally be a large artifact density. I'll refrain also from being completely exhaustive, and leave certain options out for the time being (like Granite Shard, Mind's Desire, Yawgmoth's Will or March of the Machines for example):

Artifacts:

Smokestack
Tangle Wire
Sphere of Resistance
Trinisphere
Null Rod
Chalice of the Void
Uba Mask
Crucible of Worlds
Jester's Cap
Mindslaver

Artifact creatures:

Karn
Duplicant
Triskelion
Razormane Masticore
Sundering Titan
Juggernaut
Metalworker

Non-artifact creatures:

Goblin Welder
Gorilla Shaman

Card draw/tutoring/other:

Ancient Tomb
Bazaar of Baghdad
Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Demonic Tutor
Vampiric Tutor
Imperial Seal
Tinker
Crop Rotation
Fastbond
Balance
Swords to Plowshares
Red Elemental Blast
Pyroblast
Choke
In the Eye of Chaos
Chains of Mephistopheles
Pyrostatic Pillar


Fast combo components:

Time Vault
Flame Fusillade
Lodestone Myr
Metalworker

Other considerations (thought to be "weak" or outdated at least):

Su-Chi
Gilded Lotus
Transmute Artifact
Thirst for Knowledge
Meditate
Blood Moon

I always hesitate to discard ideas completely, because the environment tends to change so much that cards need to be constantly re-evaluated.

Now as I said before, certain cards here are part of units, and certain combinations are mutually exclusive. For instance Uba Mask lends itself to Bazaar and Welder as a unit, while Trike and Karn are a poor idea with multiple Null Rods. We've already seen Evenpence and Yespuhyren rotate through some UbaStax options, including UbaCap and UbaWire, and UbaSphere. Smmenen proposed some options with Choke and In the Eye of Chaos. We've already seen the more standard 5C Stax decks. Let's examine some alternate approaches:

Combo-Stax (aka HyperMUD II)
===================

4 CotV
4 Smokestack
4 Tangle Wire
1 Trinisphere
4 Sphere of Resistance

4 Metalworker
3 Staff of Domination

4 Time Vault
4 Lodestone Myr
3 Flame Fusillade

7 SoLoMox
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
4 Mishra's Workshop
3 Ancient Tomb
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
7 Mountain

The idea is simple - generate a two pronged attack via either the prison route (centered around Smokestack) or combo off via a number of different combos. Tangle Wire and Spheres all assist is creating suitable conditions for comboing, while Ancient Tombs add to the mana explosiveness so the deck isn't so dependent on Workshop. CoWs are absent, because without an effective way to find Strip Mine and because Wastelands are finding fewer targets these days, CoWs uses are limited. Feeding Smokestack with CoW is superfluous.


Aggro-Cap
======

4 CotV
3 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
4 Jester's Cap
1 Mindslaver

4 Juggernaut
3 Su-Chi
1 Triskelion
1 Duplicant

4 Goblin Welder

1 Tinker
3 Transmute Artifact
1 Ancestral Recall

3 Gilded Lotus
3 Metalworker
7 SoLoMox
1 Mana Crypt
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Mishra's Workshop
1 Strip Mine
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Volcanic Island
3 Shivan Reef

A balls-to-the-wall approach. Why sit and wait after locking down initially when you can beat down and end the game quickly. Alternately, you can set up very quick Caps and win that way, or use the Transmutes to deposit artifacts into the grave for Welder. Mindslaver is a lot easier to activate in this build, and if Needle his Cap then Slaver is the go-to guy.

In any case, I'm not trying to generate ideal polished builds here. I've simply presented some examples of ways in which you can take the fight to the decks that give you trouble, trouble precisely because of the static nature of Stax builds these days and the unwillingness to be more flexible with the "prison" approach.  If they are meticulous in not presenting Wasteland targets, try not running CoW to make room. If their game plan is bounce then win, try to be aggressive and win first or go for Cap activation, or try the Choke/ITEOC plan etc.   

I don't really disagree with anything you say here, except that i think your approach is probably too generalized.  I was writing in the context of the SCG events and the need to be able to trump Slaver and Gifts and I merely proposed one list for doing so. 

[Smmenen]

Sorry, but I for one am of the belief that goblin welder is too good not to run.  While he surely is not NECESSARY(as has been proven), he is super utility.  You can argue that ancestral recall is also not REQUIRED(it is however an auto-include if playing blue).  Besides, haven't more Stax-based decks won T8 with goblin welder than without??(correct me if I am wrong)

You are talking about matchups vs. slaver and gifts? Both run at least 8 counterspells.  Goblin welder gives Stax the resilience it needs.  Welder gets that artifact u want in the game regardless.  Screws up Heavy D as well(DSC).  Since MOST tier one decks do run some form of counterspell I think at least 3 should be in there.  In fact, my opinion is that if a Stax deck needs only ONE creature, goblin welder would be it.  You can debate over Titan, Karn, Trike, Razor, but i gotz to have my gobbos.  Besides, he makes kick ass ashtrays....
mike

EDIT:  btw thank you for the free article

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/10203.html

This article was once premium but is now free.  Since I assume most of you are lazy, I said, in part:

Where is Goblin Welder?
This is probably the most critical question that people wonder about Kevin’s deck. I have watched over time as Kevin has moved them out of his deck – first down to two and then to none. For a while, I simply could not understand how this could be right. I assumed that one of the reasons that Kevin removed them was because they kept getting killed. But there is more to it than that.

Anyone who asks about the absence of Goblin Welder should have this question asked of them: What is it that you are Welding back? What is it that you are using Goblin Welder for?

Think about that. What is it that you are welding back? Kevin has no Tangle Wires (and I’ll explain a bit about that in a moment). Kevin’s only real artifact lock components are: Sphere of Resistance, Smokestack, Crucible of Worlds, and Chalice of the Void. What are you Welding back? Sphere of Resistance? In most cases no one counters this spell. It just slows the game down. Even if they do counter it, do you want to play a creature whose purpose is to bring this card back? It’s not worth it. Chalice of the Void is not a card that works at all with Goblin Welder. Crucible of Worlds? This is a fine and dandy Welder target, but like Sphere of Resistance, many decks don’t bother countering it – especially on a turn 1 or turn 2 Workshop without a Smokestack around or a Strip Mine visible. The only card that people are really likely to counter without anything more is Smokestack and the deck only has four. It’s simply not worth it to run four Goblin Welders – a card that is basically dead until a Smokestack comes around for the sole purpose of making Smokestack less symmetrical. The design of the deck makes Smokestack asymmetrical and Crucible of Worlds completes the lock in a better fashion than Welder does. If Kevin was using Tangle Wire, then Goblin Welder would be a lot stronger.

Why no Tangle Wire? I think the decision I disagreed with the most for some time was the removal of Tangle Wire. Tangle Wire is a very strong card that can tie up the game and permit other cards to take over. Tangle Wire also helps Stax tie up the game when it is on the draw. Although I can’t definitively say why Tangle Wire doesn’t make the cut, I can provide a number of reasons that I think Kevin would likely bring up to support his decision:


First, it is temporary. Kevin’s deck deals in cards that truly constrain your opponent’s game plan. He wants true bombs, not cards that can be played around with instants on your upkeep like Cunning Wish, Thirst or Intuition. Second, Tangle Wire is not good by itself. It is a support card, much like Goblin Welder – whose utility is conditioned upon having some other threat. As a result, it isn’t always a must-counter card. Third, it increases your reliance on Mishra’s Workshop. Almost every card but Karn and Smokestack can reasonably be played off mana sources that aren’t Mishra’s Workshop.

However, I think it is important to mention that Tangle Wire, although not included in CronStyle stax for the last eight months or so, may be, in fact, a better choice now than it once was. The massive increase in the number of Chalice of the Voids may make the bigger risk not Wasteland, but the inability to use your non-Workshop accelerants. Relying more on Mishra’s Workshop through the use of Tangle Wire may be wise.

I also think that Goblin Welder may be stronger than it was in January. One of Kevin’s concerns with Welder was that Control Slaver would take advantage of your Welder. Zvi suggested that running two Welders might be the way to go. Matt Morrison took that tack. On the Mana Drain boards, Robert Vroman said:

I dont know why you’d dump welder. maybe reducing it to 2, but still look at this card: for a single colored mana you gain protection from artifact destruction and have the ability to interefere with enemy artifacts, which is crucial in the workshop mirror. welder is V undercosted and useful. considering you only have 1 win condition, karn, an ability to retrieve him if countered/killed seems necessary. furthermore, most opponents WILL counter welder if they have the chance, so at worst, you 2 for 1 them when they force something that lets you slip in eye of chaos or smoky immediately after.

He’s got a point – no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Moreover, I think that Goblin Welder is now a stronger early play now that Chains of Mephistopheles is weaker. The need for non-Workshop threats supports Zvi, Vroman, and Matt Morrison’s conclusion.

[Implacable]

I find myself very much persuaded by the argument that Tangle Wire, in and of itself, is not a necessary card.  As an extension of this argument, it is also perfectly reasonable to assume that, sans Tangle Wire, Goblin Welder becomes entirely unnecessary.  There is a distinct lack of quantity in regard to those artifacts that necessitate the replayability provided by Welder.  The new type of Stax decks that seems to prevail now, at least to some extent, does not seem so much to destroy its opponent so swiftly as previous builds (a particular example of this type of play is UbaStax, which wins through the application of pressure).  Rather than instant immolation, a risky tactic at best, modern Stax seems to slowly overwhelm its opponent.  Is a non-threatening Crucible worth countering?  Few control players will say so.  Is a non-crippling Chalice worth bothering with?  No.  In that case, why does the combination of the two become so crippling?  The analytical processes of the opponent are in something of a bind.  Despite the instincts and training that prevent them from dealing with 'minor' threats in lieu of the big cheese, so to speak, they are being restrained not by a twenty-ton brick but by a landslide, many-faceted and inescapable.

[Whatever Works]

Having played 5c stax for a long time I think I might be able to give an extremely simple explanation to why welder does not fit the deck.

Welder isnt abusable in 5c stax. Why?
-No discard outlets (exp. Thirst for Knowledge)
-No synergy (by this there is no TRUE synergy with cards such as tangle wire that can be abused)
-DOES NOT meet the DECK REQUIREMENTS originally established by kevin cron. EVERY CARD Must be a LOCK piece, or HELP get a LOCK.

Welder is amazing thats not the question. Type 1 has a lot of amazing cards. However, its not abusable without cards like tangle wire, and discard outlets like thirst for knowledge, or even uba mask. These cards cannot be added to the deck without changing the deck. Therfore running welder because its welder is just impracticle.

Kyle L

[Smmenen]

I should qualify and make sure that people realize that I'm not saying Welder is bad.  Welder is a fantastic creature - I even advocated its restriction at one point.  I simply think that without Tangle Wire, Welder is much weaker.  So much so that its inclusion is not automatic.  Esp. since Crucible + Stack is the real lock nowadays anyway.

[nataz]

So much so that its inclusion is not automatic

touching on what dicemanX said, does welder become automatic once you include bazaar; furthermore does the inclusion of multiple bazaars indicated a separate deck archetype from the more classic 5 color stax you seem to be talking about?

I bring this up b/c obv. bazaar + welder changes how the deck works, different goals, different win conditions, different mana base considerations (And therefore lock considerations i.e., null rod) etc.

Anyone who asks about the absence of Goblin Welder should have this question asked of them: What is it that you are Welding back? What is it that you are using Goblin Welder for?

There is no welder war.  That assumes taht they are symmetrically or somewhat evenly powered.  They are not.  Weldres are enormously superior in the Slaver deck. The only function of Welder in Stax is to weld out a countered spell or to try and offset your opponents use of Welder on your artifacts.

the answer to this is obviously different also b/c bazaar allows you to use welder not as a defensive tool post counter, but as an offensive tool avoiding counters all together.

Looking at the begining of you mini-article, I find

The inherent flaw in any Prison deck is that it has to proactively address the opposing strategies before they are permitted to unfold... If you miss the mark, you will likely lose as your opponent goldfishes over you or Force of Wills your threat and then laughs while they play a million permanents

1) First and foremost, Stax has to be able to absolutely destroy Gifts and Control Slaver.  That is your first task.

2) Second, Stax must be good enough to beat a wide swath of random decks it is likely to encounter in the swiss rounds of a major Vintage event. 

Instead of consciously attempting to beat all of the third tier decks, I will ensure that Stax meets the second goal by simply playing with good cards - objectively powerful lock components that don't seal every hole, but are sufficient to plug up the big ones.

Bazaar in a welder based stax just seems stupid good, and "solves" a lot of the very vaild problems you bring up. A goblin welder is unlike any other lock component b/c it cost only one mana, while being able to comprehensivly have a huge imidiate effect on the board. Welding in a Null Rod or Titian, or even a Smokey eot is obv. a huge swing, and in a stax deck built around bazaar, you don't run into many of the classic welder problems (i.e., no good welder targets like you discussed earlier, or only being able to weld countered lock peices). Besides that, stax is the deck that can best handle its bazaar being wasted b/c of the almost auto inclusion of X crucibles, and it not only feeds welder but also acts as a draw engine.

I'm not arguing against 5-color or for UbaStax, thats not really the point. Im just saying that if you want to play with good proactive cards, I think leaving Bazaar out of the list is a mistake.   

[cssamerican]

I should qualify and make sure that people realize that I'm not saying Welder is bad.  Welder is a fantastic creature - I even advocated its restriction at one point.  I simply think that without Tangle Wire, Welder is much weaker.  So much so that its inclusion is not automatic.  Esp. since Crucible + Stack is the real lock nowadays anyway.

I totally agree with this statement.

What I don't agree with is this seemingly common assumption that Tangle Wire itself is outdated or ineffective. Its absence is one of the main reasons why decks with Tinker/DSC or Oath are such a threat. Without Tangle Wire you have no natural defense against creature based attacks, and because of its synergies with Choke and Smokestack it is quite a powerful lock piece as well. Plus, once you drop Tangle Wire, Welders become less effective because they become too situational. This kind of comes back to the unit theory Dicemanx brought up earlier in this thread. Not playing Tangle Wire results in losing Goblin Welder, which increases the need for creature removal and weakens your game in the mirror significantly.

I see Steve's point in building your Stax deck to beat what you plan to see, and I agree with it. I just think people here have gotten a little wraped up in his card choices to beat Gifts and Slaver because Steve's build has some holes pre-board versus a lot of other decks in the format. But I don't think anyone disagree with the concept itself just the list presented.

[vroman]

Ive tested many, many 5cstax lists. my experience is that 3cc+ non-artifacts are too expensive for stax. having brass/gemstone + 2x moxen + 3cc colored threat is too rare an opening hand. Its this reason that strongly influenced cutting wheel of fortune and v-heretic from ubastax in the long run.
I would not play choke, chaos eye, tinker, etc. To ensure maximum amount of realistic turn 1 plays, I limit considerations for 5cstax non-artifacts at 2 mana. for lock pieces this basicaly just leaves chains and supresion field, and lower tier options like: ground seal, pyropillar, root maze, etc.

[Pitlord]

Ive tested many, many 5cstax lists. my experience is that 3cc+ non-artifacts are too expensive for stax. having brass/gemstone + 2x moxen + 3cc colored threat is too rare an opening hand. Its this reason that strongly influenced cutting wheel of fortune and v-heretic from ubastax in the long run.
I would not play choke, chaos eye, tinker, etc. To ensure maximum amount of realistic turn 1 plays, I limit considerations for 5cstax non-artifacts at 2 mana. for lock pieces this basicaly just leaves chains and supresion field, and lower tier options like: ground seal, pyropillar, root maze, etc.

In my experience, Vroman is pretty right. Casting a solid lock piece first turn can be difficult without shop, and not haveing a lock turn 1 usually is very, very bad except in very rare instances. Chains is however a good lock piece as well, and does actually do a pretty good job of hosing gifts and slaver. They can't overwhelm you with card advantage if they can't draw cards. Supressions field is weak, but chains might be better than a few slots here. I also agree with eye of choas, which seems OK, but difficult to drop turn 1 or even turn 2, when it is really important. Tinker however I think is too good not to run, and shouldn't be used early anyways.

[xycsoscyx]

Ah, good old Welder.  I have to agree, his inclusion depends greatly on what you are trying to set out to do.  Currently, I am playing a Bazaar Stax build (not UbaStax, but more of a 5c Bazaar Stax deck), and he is a great little guy in the deck, it just wouldn't be the same without him.  Being able to 1st turn Mox Ruby and Bazaar, 2nd turn Weld out a Titan, that's just sexy.  He really does depend on the deck, though.  The list that was posted here, as well as lists like Cron's, don't want to rely on Artifacts for a reason.  Goblin Welder doesn't even need a discard outlet (though it does power him up considerably), but that doesn't mean you can just drop him in any deck.

Inclusion of Enchantments is a great idea, as long as it works for your local metagame.  Eyes, Chains, Chokes, etc, they all work wonders (even against a range of decks), but that doesn't mean they're always the right choice.  No matter what you play, you'll always find hate for it, in some form or another (direct or splash).  First turn Welders are usually not the right play, unless you can really back it up (again, first turn Mox/Welder and a Bazaar is pretty strong, though what else is in your hand can sometimes change your play).  Welder isn't just about getting back things that are countered, and Tangle Wire is not the only way to abuse that.  Sundering Titan, Duplicant, Triskelion, Pentavus, they are all great to Weld in and out of play, with huge benefits of doing so again and again.

Tinker is not always too good to run.  Tinker doesn't ensure a lock, but always ensures a lost artifact, no matter what (which is why it sucks to get countered).  Sometimes Tinker is a dead card simply because there's nothing that is needed at that time (though, when that happens to me, my draws usually don't matter anyways, regardless of what I draw, for good or for bad).  Tinker can be great, especially early on when you want to get out that specific lock piece, but sometimes it's just WTF, I don't want to give anything up and I don't need anything else out ATM, I'd rather have a land.

Chains, ah, love that picture, and I love to confuse the hell outta casual players with the ability.    In a blue heavy meta game, I think Chains is a must.  It wrecks their game plan many times over, EOT BrainStorm, go ahead, mill 3 cards.    It doesn't hurt Ichrid or UbaStax much, though (Ichorid wants their cards in the grave anyways, and UbaStax just replaces the draw), but if you have a lot of Blue in you area, then Chains can really help even the table against them.

I don't think there needs to be a limit for non-Artifact casting cost in Stax, you just need to adjust your mana base accordingly.  If you want to play Enchantment heavy, you really need extra non-shop mana (things like Vault and possibly even Gilded Lotus). You also have to consider your lands (CoB and Mines are a must, almost at 4 each), otherwise you'll be flooded with mana that you can't use.  I think Enchantments can be a great way to go, and still follow the idea of Stax, as long as you plan out your deck before, and consider how you are going to play those enchantments.

[Dralock]

I don't think there needs to be a limit for non-Artifact casting cost in Stax, you just need to adjust your mana base accordingly.  If you want to play Enchantment heavy, you really need extra non-shop mana (things like Vault and possibly even Gilded Lotus). You also have to consider your lands (CoB and Mines are a must, almost at 4 each), otherwise you'll be flooded with mana that you can't use.  I think Enchantments can be a great way to go, and still follow the idea of Stax, as long as you plan out your deck before, and consider how you are going to play those enchantments.

Many people lose sight of the fact that there are only four cards in the deck that can limit your ability to use mana to cast a spell. Non-artifact spell casting is just as easy in stax as any other deck that runs power + land, you just have to have the ability to use more of it to bait counters and play higher CC spells. ITEOC and choke are the only four non-artifacts that cost over 2. Besides setting up crucible, trinisphere or sphere of resistance on the first turn, workshops really are not that important to get down ASAP (ok, first turn stack is nice too), so dropping down some colored mana to put out a shaman or ITEOC first turn shouldn't be a problem. 5c eschews bazaars for better land drops and more lock pieces, letting welders go. I don't see why this is a problem and with choke added to the main, there is a nice balance against blue-based control.

5c also (and this is a general argument, not directed at you xycsoscyx) has a lower mana curve than other builds, offset by sphere of resistance, yes, but it can handle trinisphere much easier without running in to one of the four copies of mishra's lotus. I don't believe guilded lotus or darksteel ingot are going to do anyone any good whatsoever, though I would like to see crucible every game if possible.

I think this is a solid list for the gifts/slaver/tinker.dec meta. I'd like to see welders main, but really if you add them you have eight other artifacts to add in with them (4x tangle wire, 4x meta - uba, jester, whatever) to make them worthwhile, and you lose the entire point of running five colors....Spells.

[xycsoscyx]

I do agree that the deck can support non artifact permanents, but (at least in my play experience) it's not as easy as one would think.  By no means should someone rely soley upon the Shops, but an early 2X spell (2 colorless and a color) can be difficult (in any deck, just the fact that it's 3CC), unless you really take care with your opening hand.  It's tough to rely on Moxes, because you need them both to pull it off (they are fragile little things, and get eatten or shut off quickly in many games).  You basically need 3 things first turn, Land/Mox/Mox, or Land/Mox/Sol (at most, you can also go Crypt/(Land or Mox), or Lotus), so it can stunt you a bit (and muliganing can only hurt your chances of playing it first turn).  I agree that Gilded Lotus is also quite tough first turn, but when you do play it, you can at least play Eyes directly off it (or Tinker, or whatever you need).  Also, I am not advocating Gilded Lotus (I tried it before, didn't work out), I love the card (swings for 5), but it's too difficult to use in general, in Stax decks (I almost started relying on them, which meant relying on Shops to get them out).

I don't think 5c Stax has an easier OR tougher time dealing with Resistors in general.  It's just as likely to put down a Mox or Land as other builds, considering most run the same amount of land (Uba, 5c, Other).  Uba tries to get down things like Null Rods to counter the Moxes, but that just means that 5c is weaker to Rods if it's relying on the Moxes to get down it's Enchantments or pay the extra cost from the Resistors.  I do like Enchantment based threats, especially with the amount of Artifact hate that Stax draws out, but I think sources other then Moxes should at least be considered, in order to get those Enchantments out, or pay the extra cost from the Resistors.  Having to pay EXTRA for colored spells can also hurt 5c, because it NEEDS those Moxes to pay the extra cost, now.  Artifacts aren't a problem since you can still use Shops for the extra cost, but colored spells can be a real burden once the extra costs start to add up.

Last, I compleeeetely agree, Crucible is probably the card that I most Tutor/Tinker/Search for in general.  I am never sad to draw a Crucible ('cept when I just can't play it), because it's either (A) a MUST counter for my opponent, or (B) going to help my win.  I tried running 3 Crucibles before so that I could add more different locks, and it just wasn't right.  Crucible is a major part of the deck, for ANY Workshop deck (even Workshop Agro), I think Crucibles are a must.  Not just because you can play it directly off a Shop, but because it is just such a great lock or utility (I love recurring my Rings).

[Disburden]

With the concern posted in the last reply, I would like to ask a question:

Has anyone tested Ancient Tomb? I know with City of Brass the damage can be a factor, but I don't see it being game ending for the 5c player. Wouldn't this help out with the main point of saying you need your moxen more than the other players do? This would also help power out a In the Eye of Chaos or Choke turn one faster. Adding the land to the deck as a one-of might be interesting. The deck already runs one more Gemstone mine than Chang's list as well as most other lists, so this also helps getting color turn one with moxen.

4 Gemstone mine
4 City of brass
4 wasteland
4 Workshops
1 Strip
1 Academy
1 Ancient Tomb

I tried this configuration when Suppression Field was first coming out and everyone seemed the card would work in Stax, I later found that I hated Suppression Field after months of testing and ruining my own lock to shut off fetchlands. This didn't really win me games compared to Strip+Waste Crucible does, so I dumped the deck, as said. On the other hand though, I think this land configuration may help with Spheres in play and Colored spells. What does everyone think?


-Nick

[yespuhyren]

Its great, but I do feel that Barbarian Ring should be in the deck, as its just a freakin' house.  Hell, it won Roland the world championships VS Brassy  :lol:

Although thats just one case, cropping it up to hunt welders if necessary is never a bad thing.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I think the key statement to focus on here is:

I'm going beyond what one would normally consider to be "metagaming" in the sense of a "tweak."  I'm suggesting that people build stax from the ground up with the metagame in mind instead of building stax to be objectively most powerful.

From this, I totally agree with the direction (if not the content) of the lists given above.  The key seems to center on goblin welder or no as the split, and I think this is a card that has outlived it's usefulness in stax for the following reasons:

1) Too slow - not in that it costs 1, but in that it requires a turn already in play
2) Susceptible - two cards printed recently (needle and darkblast) really make this card untenable to use because he's answered so efficiently.  Never mind lava dart, fire/ice, trike, stp, etc...
3) Interdependent - most of the games I win against stax happen either because my hate hits, or the lock pieces don't come together in a way that is consequential, or someone has a welder swinging for 1.  The last two points are interrelated and correspond directly to welder.

It's not really any one reason, but the amalgamation of these forces make welder weak in a typical 'lock' deck.  This is not to say that welder can't succeed in a build that focuses on optimizing him (via thirst, bazaar, etc), but I think these really are a different strategy than what stax has traditionally been.  These lists need to win with a single welder activation via titan, cap, memory jar, trinisphere, etc.

Given that I agree with Steve that stax needs to start over (or more accurately, imitate cron), I also believe vroman that 3cc non artifacts are unsupportable.  I'm not sure what this looks like, since chains of meph isn't strong enough on its own, and people don't like the other thread about mana maze, you really have to think what might fill this spot.

[Disburden]

Given that I agree with Steve that stax needs to start over (or more accurately, imitate cron), I also believe vroman that 3cc non artifacts are unsupportable.  I'm not sure what this looks like, since chains of meph isn't strong enough on its own, and people don't like the other thread about mana maze, you really have to think what might fill this spot.

The problem I have with Mana Maze is that it hasn't been proved to be useful by someone who tested it successfully. If people tested the card thoroughly and then shown the results as holding water, then the card would be motivated into the deck. The problem is, with that thread, no one has really posted anything besides how they feel about the card when looking at it as a lone card. I haven't seen results from 500 matches in testing yet. That's my only beef with the thread.

[roberts91rom]

Enchanment Stax looks like it could prove to be a real contender. What about cutting Shops entirely and using Tomb/City of Traitors for colorless. You could still run things like Crucible/Null Rod, except without the inconsistancy that Workshop would add to such a deck. It would probably have to be perfectly tuned in order not to suicide in painlands. If someone can make that work, then I will hate them for making a deck that considers Drain.dec a bye, but love them for their deckbuilding skills. This would also make Combo a coinflip like no other coinflipping matchup that ever existed. It would probably bring in a metagame shift of Enchantment-Stax and Aggro hate to completely own it. Answers would be thin in the Stax vs. Stax matchup. The best lock pieces at the moment are enchantments, and Workshop would seem too inconsistant for 2-3cc non-artifacts. Hopefully somebody can make this deck work and I can praise them.

In regards to Tangle Wire:

It costs 3 Workshop mana for Time Stretch if you drop it before a control player's turn 2. The drawback is easily negatable for a Stax deck. No doubt that The Wire is MUCH better with welder. This doesn't mean that you can't run the wire by itself.

[Pitlord]

Wow, I started the mana maze thread, and hadn't even thought of posting a suggestion for it mainboarded here...

It seems like it would fit this deck nicely, being a 2 drop that avoids artifact hate. It also forces drain decks to platy around it, as it basically limits them to only 1 chance to respond to anything. It also hits storm combo pretty decently, which fits the theme of "Beat everything else by playing good cards". It might not be great in the mirror or against fish, but we all know that this isn't what this build is looking to do 100% of the time.

I think if I were to test this build, I would test the mana maze mainboarded, probably over eye of choas. They both hurt drain and storm decks primarily, maze costs 1 less, but only serious testing will show which is better.

[Disburden]

The biggest thing about in the Eye of Chaos that needs to be pointed out, is that if successfully put into play, it makes Rack and Ruin cost 5R and Artifact Mutation costs 2RG. I see a lot of players pointing out the power if ITEOC in control matchups because of how it effects drains and Force of Will, but the most widely used Stax hosers are also crippled by this effect. Mana Maze won't stop Rack and Ruin if it's the first red card casted in a turn.

I don't think I would ever cut ITEOC from my deck. Regardless of the 2U casting cost. The fact that you play two means that you don't worry about it first turn. That's the job of Spheres, Chalices, Smokestacks, and Crucibles.

[Pitlord]

You bring up a good point about rack and ruin, and being able to cast it easily. Maze will almost never stop that, and eye will. With that in mind, think about trying out soemthing like this...

Play the maze in the main, as they limit the cards control can play at a time, and force storm to play around it. Then, as you expect the hate to come flowing in from fish and mana drain.dec, side out the mazes and bring in eyes.

This idea might take up too much board space, or might not even be effective, but it is worth a shot at least considering, or even testing.

[Juggernaut GO]

This is the current list I have been toying around with.

Strip Mine 1   
Mishra's Workshop 4   
Tolarian Academy 1   
Tendo Ice Bridge 2   
City of Brass 1   
Barbarian Ring 1   
Gemstone Mine 4   
Wasteland 4   

Triskelion 1   
Duplicant 1   
Karn, Silver Golem 1   
Sundering Titan 1   

Ancestral Recall 1   
Vampiric Tutor 1   
Enlightened Tutor 1   
Demonic Tutor 1   
Chalice of the Void 4   
Imperial Seal 1   
Tinker 1   
Tangle Wire 3   
Black Lotus 1   
Sphere of Resistance 4   
In the Eye of Chaos 2   
Smokestack 4   
Trinisphere 1   
Crucible of Worlds 3   
Balance 1   
Mox Ruby 1   
Crop Rotation 1   
Sol Ring 1   
Mana Crypt 1   
Mox Sapphire 1   
Mox Emerald 1   
Mox Pearl 1   
Mox Jet 1   
Darkblast 1 


Swords to Plowshares  2
Blue Elemental Blast  2
Ray of Revelation  2
Tormod's Crypt  2
Pithing Needle  2
Rack and Ruin  2
Red Elemental Blast  2
darkblast 1

Just to add some stuff: In the eye of chaos has been remarkably bad.  However, I haven't gotten around to switching it out for anything yet.  Also, the maindeck darkblast is decent VS. control slaver, but dead everywhere else.  Again, I haven't played stax in a tournament in a while, but eventually the time will be right again to break it out.

[Pitlord]

@disburden
I think eye coming down turn 1 is somewhat of a problem that needs to be addressed. You say that your turn 1 should be some artifact lock, probably cast off workshop. In order to cast, for example, turn 1 crucible, turn 2 eye, you need a land and 2 moxes. This seems to be a bigger reliance on broken mana than most stax decks rely on workshop. I just felt like pointing out that in order for a 3 cc enchanment and an artifact to come down early, you need lots of moxes or lotus. No matter what your plan, expansive artifacts and expensive enchanments can be hard to cast together.

[roberts91rom]

This is why I adreessed that Stax should either go purely for Artifacts or mostly for enchanments. It seems inconsistant beyond words to play 4xWorkshop and XxEnchantments. Maybe a deck like this would be an enchanment Stax:

Lands-18
4xAncient Tomb
4xGemstone Mine
4xCity of Brass
2xWasteland
2xCity of Traitors
1xStrip Mine
1xTolarian Academy

Artifact Mana-8
1xSol Ring
1xBlack Lotus
1xMox Emerald
1xMox Jet
1xMox Ruby
1xMox Sapphire
1xMox Pearl
1xMox Diamond

Lock Pieces-23
4xCrucible of Worlds
4xSupression Field
4xTangle Wire
4xChains of Mephistopheles
3xNull Rod
3xChoke
1xTrinisphere

Draw/Tutor-8
4xThirst for Knowledge
1xEnlightened Tutor
1xDemonic Tutor
1xAncestral Recall
1xTinker

Win Conditions-3
1xKarn, Silver Golem
1xRazormane Masticore
1xDuplicant

This doesn't look too bad, and I'm going to punch up a few test games. This looks like it could be the next Mega-Lock prison deck. I'll come back with results in a few days unless anyone thinks that this deck sucks.

[pyr0ma5ta]

I apologise for not knowing about pre-mirrodin stax, as I didn't rejoin the magic community until Kamigawa block.  However, for all of recent memory, Stax has always been able to achieve a hard lock, usually centering around Crucible of Worlds, Trini/Resistor or Chalice, and Strip Mine/Wasteland or Smoky@1.  Your Enchantment build, while disruptive and probably annoying as all hell to play against, has no ability to lock the game completely.  Eventually, your opponent will break out of it, and then you're screwed. 

[Pitlord]

I don't think the enchanment build looks too bad, just not terrific either. There seems to be a lot of anti-synergy going on with the deck, which is VERY bad for prison decks. Locking yourself out should never be a concern with prison, but yours seems as though it might occasionaly.

If you really want to try it though, which I think it is at least worth trying, I would suggest replaceing the tangle wires with smokestacks. Having the ability to have a hard, repeatable lock is a HUGE deal, and smoky + crucible gives you that. I also think Karn is deifitly a wrong threat in this build, as he doesn't have much to animate and gets shut down by null rod. Try 7/10 instead, as he beats no matter what.


PS.  If you want to test this, or if anyone ever wants to test anything with me, send me a message on AIM and I will be happy to play a few games on apprentice, but I don't have MWS, sadly.

[vroman]

I would only play darkblast main in welder stax. dblast acts as a pseudo-discard outlet by dredging weld targets directly into the yard. thus increasing welder utility, while simultaneously providing recurring creature removal. thats good synergy. its even better w bazaar, to allow means of repeatedly putting dblast into the yard for a good reason (replacing it w 2/3s of a new card) other than hitting enemy 1/1s, when facing creatureless decks; and furthermore, bazaar gives more dredge opportunities. of course if you have bazaar, then the welder synergy is solved, and dblast again becomes meta-dependent. darkblast alone, wo welders, is fairly dumb if you dont expect a large number of enemy welders or fishies.

re enchantment stax:
I agree that decks featuring workshops logically must be very artifact heavy, or else the manabase grinds down. the problem w stax today though is metagame has adapted to playing cheap mass removal main, ie hurkyl. getting chalice@2 consistently is asking too much. their tutor power is faster and more reliable in the long run.
possible solutions to this specific problem are:
1 mono-red artifact stax (not ubastax) w REBs main
2 enchantment prison

1. red artifact stax
uba has to be cut, bc the uba mask/bazaar functions of the deck run optimaly w few to zero cards in hand, and especially cant run well if some of the cards MUST be held through opponents turn. if Im holding REB that I need to hold to counter game-breaker enemy spell, then its like Im bazaaring w one fewer card in hand; and I will never be able to get to zero cards, which allows ubazaar, or just mill-bazaaring (get threshold, find weld targets, crucible fodder, race phyrexian furnace/w-wretch, etc). REB mucks up the gears of ubazaar terribly.

4 shop
4 waste
1 strip
1 academy
3 bring
4 mtn
5 mox
4 sol lotus crypt vault
26 mana

2-4 bazaar
4 welder
4 crucible
4 smoky
4 REB
0-2 pyroblast
2-3 monkey
0-3 solemn
3 null rod
X other stax stuff (resistor/chalice/tangle/etc)
chalice is weak here though bc the deck is relying fairly hard on REB, in the absence of its own brokenness (ie ubazaar or 5c restricted cards)
the idea of this deck then is to lay null rod + smokestack, and hold REBs for bounce. prevent them from doing anything broken, while chewing away at their board, and slowroll red counterspells for only mass-bounce.

2. enchantment prison
assuming theres any viable list, this is an entirely new archetype that could go many different directions. for example

bazaar
squee
solitary confinement
big broken enchantments
replenish
+
UW manabase
blue draw
counterspells
or
BW mana
discard
tutors
reanimate + worldgorger

unfortunately neither of these is really prison. I tried coming up w more stax feeling lists, but nothing apealed to me. the problems are:
-there's no broken recursion based around enchantments, until they print this card:
Cleric Welder
W 1/1 Creature - Cleric
T: exchange target enchantment a player controls for target enchantment in that player's graveyard

-theres no broken mana based around enchantments, until they print this card:
Gaea's Workshop
Land
T: add 3 mana of any one color to your mana pool. spend this mana only on enchantment spells.

enchantment prison has absolutely no game, relative to artifact prison. if the problem of mass-bounce can be efficiently counteracted in modern metagame, then theres zero reason to switch over to enchantment heavy stax lists.

[roberts91rom]

Thought so. I pulled up a few games on MWS, and I did manage to lock a few opponents out of the game. The problem was that I faced like 4 control decks in a row, and my deck kind of rolled over to them. (I faced an oath deck that actually countered my entire hand. Every Spell, even the sub-optimal ones. WTF?)

@Pitlord: You do realize that 7/10 costs 8 mana? I don't run Workshop, I don't run Mana Crypt, and it will probably cost me a lot of life to drop him. I don't think its a good idea to solely rely on tinker in an enchantment stax deck, so no on 7/10. Side note, why don't you get MWS? Its free...

@vroman: Nail on the head man, nail on the head. Even a Tier 2 deck can get T8 at a major event, just based on surprise factor however. Your also right on the fact that it won't be prison, at least in the way you presented the deck. I like the confinement-based enchantment build, and I think it could work. Instead of big, broken enchantments however, why not run lots of locking enchantments with Opalesence and Replenish? Seems dirty to lock your opponent with chains, suppresion, ItEoC, confinement, etc. Then use Bazaar, Confinement and maybe TfK to dump a whole pile of crap and replenish into the win. You can even hardcast Opalescence off ancient tomb and WW as your win condition. Don't know why I bothered to keep some of the artifacts in the deck, so yeah...

Enchantment Stax v.0.2

Lands-17
4xAncient Tomb
4xGemstone Mine
4xCity of Brass
3xSerra's Sanctum
2xCity of Traitors

Artifact Mana-9
1xChrome Mox
1xMana Vault
1xSol Ring
1xBlack Lotus
1xMox Emerald
1xMox Jet
1xMox Ruby
1xMox Sapphire
1xMox Pearl

Lock Pieces-20
4xTangle Wire
4xSupression Field
4xIn The Eye Of Chaos
4xChains of Mephistopheles
2xSolitary Confinement
2xChoke

Draw/Tutor-7
3xBazaar of Baghdad
1xCrop Rotation
1xEnlightened Tutor
1xDemonic Tutor
1xAncestral Recall

Win Conditions-7
4xOpalescence
3xReplenish

Sideboard-15
4xPyrostatic Pillar
4xGhostly Prison
4xImprison (Legends sure is a twisted set isn't it?)
3xHide/Seek