Ethics of the die roll

[orgcandman]

This is more of a community question, but stems from situations which arose this past weekend at Myriad. I'll go over the two situations where it came up:

- Case 1:
   Game 3: I'm on the play, and keep a sketched out hand because it's hilarious. I drop a mana vault and a mana crypt, along with an island (or volcanic or something) and pass the turn. On my upkeep I have no dice to roll. I use my opponent's dice. He says "I'll call odds because this always rolls odds. I don't know why" Sure enough, out of the 5 or 6 rolls, only 1 was not odd. We went on to draw that game (and the round, which sucks).

- Case 2:
   Game 2: I keep a slightly sketchy hand because I can get off an early timewalk AND have force backup. I draw into crypt, and have Arcane Lab in my hand. I drop them. I again have no dice. My opponent pulls out his and says "I'll use this. It always rolls evens, so that's what I'll call." Sure enough, I get hit by it every single roll, and go down to almost dead before I pull that game out.

The question isn't if using a dice with a known outcome is ethical. That is obviously not. The question is more: What do you do in this situation? In both cases, I was tempted to call a judge over to hear what my opponent said to me. I didn't, but looking back, I'm not sure whether or not that was correct. I've left out names and specific round numbers to protect the people involved (and to give them a chance to chime in without anyone looking at their posts with any bias).

So TMD, what would you do? What are your thoughts?

[BigMac]

Get out a coin and let them call head or tails. Another good method then is to let them roll and let you choose. Will teach them to keep their mouth shut about what the dice will roll.

Or lastly i will borrow a dice from a friend that is close by.

[Bram]

The trick is always that the guy who doesn't own the die, calls odds or even. That way, even if the dice are loaded, noone's able to get an unfair advantage. The other trick is to ALWAYS CARRY DICE! And I don't mean just at tournaments. I mean c'mon....how the hell do you go about making the major decisions in your personal life if you don't have a die handy?

[BigMac]

Bram wrote

how the hell do you go about making the major decisions in your personal life if you don't have a die handy?

I usually call you Bram...

[Magi]

If you have reason to suspect that the dice are loaded, just call a judge over to take a look at it. Other than that, your opponent can say whatever he pleases about how his dice will roll.

Sometimes I would say to my opponent "My dice always makes me win" and sure enough there are times where I'll go through an entire tournament winning 90-95% of the dice rolls, and there are times where it will crap out on me the same amount of time. But my dice aren't loaded, it's just random how it will roll.

[Komatteru]

You could always just switch dice if you think one of them has an issue.  Things to look for in dice:
1) Distribution of even/odd numbers.  Most d10s that have all the even numbers on the top.  For purposes of rolling for first, this is ok, as last time I checked, even numbers weren't necessarily higher than odd numbers.  However, for Mana Crypt, this can make things seem a little shady.
2) Check to make sure all the numbers are where they're supposed to be.  For example, on a d6, the opposing sides should add up to 7.  On a d20, they add up to 21.  On a d10, opposing sides (requires some spatial reasoning) add up to 9, when you count the '0' as as zero and not a ten.
3) Spindown.  That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.

how the hell do you go about making the major decisions in your personal life if you don't have a die handy?

I have a portable dartboard I carry around with me just in case I want a second opinion.

[vartemis]

You could always just switch dice if you think one of them has an issue.  Things to look for in dice:
1) Distribution of even/odd numbers.  Most d10s that have all the even numbers on the top.  For purposes of rolling for first, this is ok, as last time I checked, even numbers weren't necessarily higher than odd numbers.  However, for Mana Crypt, this can make things seem a little shady.
2) Check to make sure all the numbers are where they're supposed to be.  For example, on a d6, the opposing sides should add up to 7.  On a d20, they add up to 21.  On a d10, opposing sides (requires some spatial reasoning) add up to 9, when you count the '0' as as zero and not a ten.
3) Spindown.  That is so easy to discover that it suggests conspicuousness or little need for perspicacity in the observer.

I had a guy ask me to roll a d6 for my crypt once because he didnt like my D10.  Its no big deal really.

how the hell do you go about making the major decisions in your personal life if you don't have a die handy?

Simple... buy yourself a "jump to conclusions" mat.

j

[Nefarias]

I will openly admit that I was the first opponent, and I was slightly misunderstood. What I said, or meant to imply, was that Mana Crypt rolls always seem to be odd. I came to this conclusion after Richmond Top 8, when Evenpence played a first turn Crypt. He used his own dice and I called "even" every roll. Out of 13 rolls, there was one even (and no, I don't suspect any wrong-doing).

Obviously, die rolls are (assuming non-loaded dice, no other form of cheatz) completely random, and I realize that.  Merely out of superstition, though, I will continue to call odds now. I did not mean to imply that that specific die always comes up odds, I meant Mana Crypt rolls in general do. While superstitions in general are silly, there is no doubt that luck is a huge factor in Magic. While the force of "luck" may not exist, if is does I want to be on its good side.

Anyway, my comment was meant more as a joke than anything, as we had been bantering all match. I'm sorry if it seemed sketchy, and I would not have at all been offended had you asked to switch dice/make me roll and you call/whatever. If I suspected my opponent of trying to gain an unfair advantage over what should be a random effect, I would too. Incidently, I lost a game to Mana Crypt in Round 4, with (IIRC) a different die, where once again, odds were called and came up 5 times out of 7.

[Juggernaut GO]

I had a ridiculous run of luck with die rolls this weekend, out of 5 matches on saturday, 4 in swiss, 2 ID's and 1 in the top 8, and 5 matches on sunday I did not lose a single die roll.  I did however lose a Rock Paper Scissors shoot to see who went first.  I should have went with my luck and kept rolling 20 sided.

[Tha Gunslinga]

So the guy tells you his dice are rigged, and you just accept that?  What the FUCK were you doing?

[cssamerican]

how the hell do you go about making the major decisions in your personal life if you don't have a die handy?

I have a portable dartboard I carry around with me just in case I want a second opinion.

You guys are amatuers! Dice..Dart Boards..WTF! Smart people know that if you want to make an important decision regarding your life consult the magic 8-ball, that thing is always right.

[Harkius]

I have a D20 that I am not allowed to roll in my hometown anymore. In all of the times that I have rolled it, I have been beaten 1 time. It hasn't mattered who has rolled first, what method was used to roll it, or anything. On several occasions, I have actually predicted my opponent's rolls. This kind of thing has led to my die being banned. It got to the point where people would refuse to let me use it, and the judge backed them up, since the numbers just suggested that I couldn't really be legit.

Not cheating, just magic juju.

Now no one else gets to touch that die. It's awesome.

In the case in question, though, I wouldn't let my opponents mind games play with me. I carry translucent dice, and anyone can see that they are not loaded. I won't roll opaque dice, though. You never can tell...

Harkius

[Matt]

If you're worried about unfair coins, here's what you do: you flip twice. If they both come up heads or both tails, reflip. If it comes up H/T, you win, if it comes up T/H, I win.

If it's a fair coin, we both have 50% chance at winning. If it's weighted so that 60% of the time it comes up heads, and 40% tails, then the chance of H/T is the same as the chance of T/H. And so you have a fair way to use weighted coins.

This can be extended to dice - just substitute "odd" for heads and "even" for tails.

[Anusien]

Matt has a good solution.  I would suggest finding some way of opposed rolls, like, "We'll both roll the same die.  If I win, no damage, if you win, damage."  The logic is that if the die is inclined to roll high, you'll both roll high, and if it rolls low, you both roll low.

By the way, don't use spindowns.  It's possible to be able to roll slightly better on d20s with lots of practice; I've seen this trend a lot and it could be simply not having enough test trials.  However, spindowns aren't actually random because it groups the high numbers on one side of the die and the low numbers on another.  The best way to ensure not getting hosed is to carry a fair (or unknownly weighted, like foreign currency) coin and die on you, and both roll the same die!

[Scoops666]

As a judge, if I was called over, I'd carefully inspect the dice on principal, but I would most likely assume that it was just an offhand comment. Dice are actually kind of hard to warp without making it obvious. The person probably just has really good/bad luck w/ that particular set and is feeling the need to comment about it. No harm/no foul. And like Nefarious said, dice rolls are all random, regardless of how "lucky" the person or dice are.

If I did see something that looked suspicious, I would not allow the dice to be used. In fact, I'd ask if I could hold onto that dice for the duration of the tournament just to be sure. Not that I think someone would cheat w/ dice (as I've already said, warping dice is hard to do mildly.) it's just dice wear over time.

[orgcandman]

I will openly admit that I was the first opponent, and I was slightly misunderstood. What I said, or meant to imply, was that Mana Crypt rolls always seem to be odd. I came to this conclusion after Richmond Top 8, when Evenpence played a first turn Crypt. He used his own dice and I called "even" every roll. Out of 13 rolls, there was one even (and no, I don't suspect any wrong-doing).

I understand. Your comment actually got me thinking, which is one reason why I posted this. I didn't really suspect you were doing anything illicit, but I do know that there are people who would, and so this is more to raise awareness and evaluate what options players have when faced with the situation.

Anyway, my comment was meant more as a joke than anything, as we had been bantering all match. I'm sorry if it seemed sketchy, and I would not have at all been offended had you asked to switch dice/make me roll and you call/whatever.

No no, it's all good. Hell, I kept that hand with crypt expecting to drop a turn 1 trike and die to crypt damage. We both saw how that worked out

[Limbo]

In my D&D play group, I am known for my D&D juju, or actually the lack thereof. Whenever I have to roll something crappy that doesn't mean anything, I keep hitting the 20's. Important battles : < 5 is the way to go

Oh, and it doesn't matter which dice I use, cause I regularly temporarely swipe dice from other players, but it does not dodge the jinx. I just play the wizard with spells that does not require me to roll dice nowadays

[vartemis]

Once, by accident mind you, a guy brought his stat generator dice to a tournament.  His opponent went to roll for a crypt, called odds, and then rolled.  He looked at the die (d10) and it was all evens (2-10 X2)  Everyone was laughing because we knew it was unintentional, and the fact that his opponent didnt even look at the die before rolling.

j

[ELD]

I'm going to come across as heavy handed and say the entire situation is your fault for not being prepared.  That's the only issue here at all.  I don't believe there is any chance that the dice were "loaded."  I believe it's absurd to insinuate that your opponent was cheating when you were the only one who was in the wrong.  To discuss this is madness.  To handle this situation you show up ready to play a game of magic.  Not having dice is like going to a golf course with no balls. 

Were I the judge and you called me over to whine about the results of a die roll, I'd have to consider that unsportsman-like.  This guy lends you dice to roll, because you don't have it together enough to play a game of magic.  Then to try and get the guy in trouble because you suspect the dice are somehow rigged is amazing. 

[orgcandman]

#1 - I did NOT at ANY POINT CALL a judge and "whine about the results" NOR am I "whining about the results." In fact, I must dissent with the undertone of your post, which to me seems to be saying that I'm trying to find a way to get my opponent a gameloss.

#2 - Chiding me for not having dice at a card game in no way addresses the topic of the thread. The topic is what would you do in the situation where you suspect loaded dice. The topic is not "OMG so leik i was trying to call the judge on these d00dz". I agree, I should have been more prepared. That has no bearing on my opponent knowingly using "enhanced" die for rolls.

#3 - I believe that this situation has a very high likelihood of showing up. How many times have you been at an event where, sure you had dice, but the guy across from you already had them out and suggested to just use them.

[Manpriest]

I'm going to come across as heavy handed and say the entire situation is your fault for not being prepared. 

Wow, what a way to begin a post...

That's the only issue here at all.  I don't believe there is any chance that the dice were "loaded."  I believe it's absurd to insinuate that your opponent was cheating when you were the only one who was in the wrong. 

I don't really remember him "insinuating" a damn thing, just making a point.

Then to try and get the guy in trouble because you suspect the dice are somehow rigged is amazing. 

Where in the first post did he say he was trying to get the person in trouble?

Sorry, this is the most asaniasinine I've ever seen on this forum...please read the first post before flaming it.

[ashiXIII]

I had a ridiculous run of luck with die rolls this weekend, out of 5 matches on saturday, 4 in swiss, 2 ID's and 1 in the top 8, and 5 matches on sunday I did not lose a single die roll.  I did however lose a Rock Paper Scissors shoot to see who went first.  I should have went with my luck and kept rolling 20 sided.

Rock, Paper, Scissors is not a random method to determine anything.. However, that's a topic for another thread entirely.

[Yare]

I had a ridiculous run of luck with die rolls this weekend, out of 5 matches on saturday, 4 in swiss, 2 ID's and 1 in the top 8, and 5 matches on sunday I did not lose a single die roll.  I did however lose a Rock Paper Scissors shoot to see who went first.  I should have went with my luck and kept rolling 20 sided.

Rock, Paper, Scissors is not a random method to determine anything.. However, that's a topic for another thread entirely.

From my tournament report a while ago:

Game 1 [Round 1] – Right off the bat something unusual happened. Michael tried to get us to determine who would go first by using Rock Lobster, Scissors Lizard, and Paper Tiger from Unglued. I noticed that the sleeves of the cards were pretty played, and determined that while it was likely that he wasn’t trying to cheat by knowing which sleeves belonged to which card, I was probably better off just forcing a roll. I suggest such and he agrees without argument.

[Mr. Nightmare]

I have the Rock Lobster, Scissors Lizard, Paper Tiger with me at most tournaments.  i offer to play to decide who goes first, as its unusual and most people get a kick out of it.  I never have a problem rolling a die instead.

[Jacob Orlove]

The proper way to do that is to have the person who owns the cards pick first, and then you pick one of the remaining two. Be sure to check that all three are there, though!

[ashiXIII]

I had a ridiculous run of luck with die rolls this weekend, out of 5 matches on saturday, 4 in swiss, 2 ID's and 1 in the top 8, and 5 matches on sunday I did not lose a single die roll.  I did however lose a Rock Paper Scissors shoot to see who went first.  I should have went with my luck and kept rolling 20 sided.

Rock, Paper, Scissors is not a random method to determine anything.. However, that's a topic for another thread entirely.

From my tournament report a while ago:

Game 1 [Round 1] – Right off the bat something unusual happened. Michael tried to get us to determine who would go first by using Rock Lobster, Scissors Lizard, and Paper Tiger from Unglued. I noticed that the sleeves of the cards were pretty played, and determined that while it was likely that he wasn’t trying to cheat by knowing which sleeves belonged to which card, I was probably better off just forcing a roll. I suggest such and he agrees without argument.

This is random, though. You don't know which one you're getting, or which one your opponent is getting, assuming nothing funny is going on. However, shooting Rock, Paper, Scissors is not. Believe it or not, there are strategies for winning this game which can be fairly effective if you're shooting 2 out of 3, or more times. Also, there's psychology involved, and to some small extent, if you have an incredibly quick reaction time, you can see what the other person is throwing as they start to, and adjust accordingly. These may all seem like small factors, but they add up to make it a nonrandom method of determining choice.