Battle of the banned

[Smmenen]

I'm going to do another article on this topic:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/7699.html

But I'm not going to use the Balance deck.

Instead, I'm going to use a Trinisphere Stax deck.

But which Stax list should I use? Kevin Cron was the last Stax player to win a major event before Trinisphere was restricted, but he only used 3 Trinispheres. Suggestions?

Also, find me a better Academy list.

[Jacob Orlove]

Oh man, searching for old academy lists, I found hilarious posts where people were blaming everything from Mind over Matter to Stroke of Genius. Only about half the people posting actually thought Academy should be restricted/banned. Some people are even patiently explaining that cards like Raze and Pursuit of Knowledge "solve" the matchup.

Also, people complain that a huge wave of restrictions would lead to "fair" cards like Necropotence getting hit too.

I found a terrible list that actually runs brainstorm. Unfortunately, only 2, and 2 emerald charms. None yet that actually run Will. This is so frustrating.
Edit: Oh man, I found a Jar list! Check this out:

We have been testing this deck since We Knew the apparition of Memory Jar. After a lot of testing We think that this is the most powerfull version, it is such powerfull that winning in the first turn is very easy (approximatly the 70% of the times). !!Don´t worry if you haven´t got the 5 moxes and the Black Lotus even the Timewalk!!, you can also kill in the first turn easily. !!But if you got the P9 the probabilities of winning in the first turn are increased in 20%!!.

4 Memory Jar
4 Tinker
4 Mana Vault
4 Mana Crypt
4 Lotus Petal
1 Fastbond
1 Regrowth
4 Lion´s Edge Diamond
4 Frantic Search (A new Hurky´s Recall?)
4 Mox Diamond (Or 5 Moxes if you have it, but !!isn´t neccesary!!)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Whell of Fortune
1 Windfall
1 Sol Ring
3 Defense Grid
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Time Spiral
1 Time Twister (Or a Time Spiral)
1 Crop Rotation (The Second Tolarian)
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
3 Undiscovered Mine
1 Tolarian Academy

I would seriously just cut the diamonds and some land to put in the recommended P9 (the comments specifically refer to Ancestral and Walk being the powered list, plus the specific mentions of Lotus and the 5 Moxes), and then throw that deck into the ring.

Edit (again): I found this list on usenet, courtesy of edt:

4@tolarian windfall spiral force lotuspetal vault crypt hurkyls candelabra
1@meditate ancestral wheel twist balance stroke pearl sapphire emerald jet
ruby lotus solring demtutor walk 2@abeyance barbedsextant lionseye 3@scrollrack

Translates to:
4 Academy
4 Windfall
4 Time Spiral
4 Force of Will
4 Petal
4 Mana Vault
4 Mana Crypt
4 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Candelabra
1 Meditate
1 Ancestral
1 Wheel
1 Timetwister
1 Balance
1 Stroke of Genius
7 Solomox
1 Demonic
1 Walk
2 LED
2 Barbed Sextant
2 Abeyance
3 Scroll Rack

[Machinus]

Wtf? No capsize?

Can you explain the cities of brass?

I had a post-restriction list I liked. The pre restriction decks were all sick, though.

[Smmenen]

They actually aren't that good.

I don't think i'm goign to play an academy deck, just cause they are so weak compared to the other combo decks in the guantlet.

[Jacob Orlove]

I don't think i'm goign to play an academy deck, just cause they are so weak compared to the other combo decks in the guantlet.

Please play a (powered) Tinker/Jar list, then. You'll be surprised at just how savage it is, even if that version is missing Rituals, Will, AND Brainstorm. Hmm. Could you play Randy's extended build instead? It'd be funny if it won matches (which it would).

[Smmenen]

There is a megrim deck that looks something like this, IN EXTENDED:

4 Yawg Will
4 Dark Ritual
4 LED
4 Mana Crypt
4 Mana Vault
4 Academy
4 Lotus Petal
4 Tinker
4 Jar
1 Megrim
4 Time Spiral
etc. 

[Jacob Orlove]

Jar
Randy Buehler - Old Extended
3  Ancient Tomb
4  City of Brass
2  Gemstone Mine
3  Underground River
4  Underground Sea

4  Defense Grid
4  Lion's Eye Diamond
4  Lotus Petal
4  Mana Vault
4  Memory Jar
4  Mox Diamond
4  Dark Ritual
1  Megrim
4  Vampiric Tutor
2  Yawgmoth's Will
4  Brainstorm
1  Mystical Tutor
4  Tinker

[Smmenen]

That deck is ridic. even by Vintage standards.

The proble, of course, si that no one had the b rains to put it in vintage/

[Anusien]

Why not do what Knut suggested?  Build a modern Balance deck; a modern Trinisphere deck, a modern Jar deck, etc...

[Matt]

That deck is ridic. even by Vintage standards.

The proble, of course, si that no one had the b rains to put it in vintage/

Are you drunk, or just masturbating to that decklist?

[Smmenen]

Why not do what Knut suggested?  Build a modern Balance deck; a modern Trinisphere deck, a modern Jar deck, etc...

When did he suggest that?

[Jacob Orlove]

Why not do what Knut suggested?  Build a modern Balance deck; a modern Trinisphere deck, a modern Jar deck, etc...

By "modern" I assume you mean take a look at the cards available back then and build the "best" deck possible. There is one huge problem with this. Instead of building a modern Academy deck, a modern Jar deck, etc., you would have a modern Yawgwill deck with 4 Academy, a modern Yawgwill deck with 4 Tinker/Jar, etc. There would be 4 LED in all kinds of decks that never actually ran it, 4 Brainstorm in stuff where people didn't know that card was good, and so on. It would look nothing like the decks that actually got the cards in question restricted, because we'd be abusing much more powerful cards that people didn't catch until later.

[Vegeta2711]

Shouldn't rename it to, 'the battle of a bunch of misbuilt piles of shit because none of us knew any better vs. a few decks that are still busted but built optimally'?

Like the older piles of Jar and Academy would win every time if we even had built them half correctly. Shit lemme change that...

Ahem. If we took the T2 versions of the Academy deck and the 1.x version of the Jar deck and played those (yes without moxen, gasp, like they needed them), it would be more intresting than taking the older Vintage versions.

[The Atog Lord]

I agree with Josh. My Type Two Academy deck was consistent turn 1-2 kills.

[Jacob Orlove]

I'm trying to find the consensus "best deck" from PT Rome, but I'm having trouble. It was an academy list (duh) but it had 4 LED, and didn't quite make top 8. It was mentioned in an old duelist, which is how I know about it, but they didn't give a decklist, I think.

[Anusien]

Why not do what Knut suggested?  Build a modern Balance deck; a modern Trinisphere deck, a modern Jar deck, etc...

When did he suggest that?

Read your article forums.

[cssamerican]

I would be intrested in seeing the banned decks go up against a modern deck. The modern deck could basically be the yard stick to measure the brokenness of past decks. I would vote for MD-Gifts to be the modern deck because of your familiarity with that deck.

Another intresting thing would be to create the best Balance deck you could envision and have it as a bonus deck. Mainly because the one in the first series sucked so bad, but also as a test to see if a 4 Balance deck could be as broken as everyone thinks it should be. The only stipulation you should adhere to is that the restricted list is the list today -Balance.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Why not do what Knut suggested?  Build a modern Balance deck; a modern Trinisphere deck, a modern Jar deck, etc...

When did he suggest that?

I really think that this would be more interesting. The modern decks have an enormous advantage already because the cardpool they can be built from is several times bigger. The strategy of Maysonet Rack-Balance IS terrible with the cardpool we have now, but at the time it was not only an incredible strategy, it was the best strategy. It was never ment to deal with Force of Will or Turn 1 combo. A rebuilt version of a Balance deck, however, would be much better. I'd be more than willing to submit a list if anyone wanted it, since I'm currently testing a deck that would be easy to integrate 4 Balance into.

[Smmenen]

I looked through the threads and did not see Knutson suggest that.

Updating the decklists would be an impossible job because I'd have to test, tune, etc them and I don't get paid nearly enough to do that.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Knutson says it at the end of your article.

[Jacob Orlove]

Updating the decklists would be an impossible job because I'd have to test, tune, etc them and I don't get paid nearly enough to do that.

You know what would be cooler? A contest. Have some Vintage notables pick which broken deck they want to tune, and then you play all the matches as in your previous article, and see who did the best job and which list was most insane. Be sure to include GAT, Stax, and other decks that aren't pure combo, so that people can't overmetagame.

[cssamerican]

Updating the decklists would be an impossible job because I'd have to test, tune, etc them and I don't get paid nearly enough to do that.

If you do what Jacob suggested than it might be possible if not please atleast attempt to do a modern Balance deck using today's restricted list as a guide but with Balance unrestricted. You don't even have to come up with new great idea. Ichorid or Stax with 4 Balances in the main would be atleast a pretty decent start. Way better than Balance Rack.

[Jacob Orlove]

Posted by request:

You know what would be cooler? A contest. Have some Vintage notables pick which broken deck they want to tune, and then you play all the matches as in your previous article, and see who did the best job and which list was most insane. Be sure to include GAT, Stax, and other decks that aren't pure combo, so that people can't overmetagame.

It's getting kind of far from the original concept, but I'd love to see an "Auction of the Banned", similar to the Magic Invitational's auctions.  Just how much is unrestricted Yawgmoth's Will, Balance, etc., worth (in life points and cards)?  If there were 8 players, you could have 8 cards (or groups of less powerful restricted cards) up for auction.

Thanks for reading,
Justin Roman

[Vegeta2711]

I'd be soooooo down for that. Desigining and bidding in that sort of set-up. That'd be just fucking awesome.

[rvs]

Yeah, that is a pretty good idea.

[Smmenen]

I'll do that.

The cards are:

Gush
Balance
Necropotence
LED/B. Wish
Fact or Fiction
Trinisphere


I think that it would be easier to keep it to these six.   But we may want to add the Tinker Jar deck and the

Academy/Spiral/Mana Crypt/ 4 Petal/ etc deck

and

Dream Halls

BTW, the only deck that would be automatically given would be Balance to Kevin Cron.  But others could call the other decks. 

[Thug]

Necropotence seems the most powerfull card by far, but maybe that's because I simply love the card.
However in you have to bid life to get to play it, if becomes very interesting, since you're basicly giving away draws by bidding life points.

Trinishere is powerful in such a format because there will be a lot of decks with very fragile mana-bases, however most of these decks will be playing FoW, so I don't think Trinisphere is all that dangerous since it are just 4 cards and the remaining cards in the deck will probably fail to reach the powerlevel the other decks can.

Koen

EDIT:

LED seems pretty powerfull too, although I would drop Burning Wish, you don't need that card, Infernal Tutor is much better.
It allows you to play Will maindeck, and can be cast off Rituals. On top of that it allows you to run Unmask, making LED a huge contender too.

[TracerBullet]

No Fastbond?

[MuzzonoAmi]

The Fastbond deck wasn't that broken.

ZOMG Storm Cauldron.

[Nazdakka]

The Fastbond deck wasn't that broken.

ZOMG Storm Cauldron.

ZOMG Draw7.dec with really good odds of generating mana from each draw 7. 

@ Smemmen: That seems like a pretty good set of cards to unban as a starter. Keep it simple!