Flame Fusilade + Time Vault no longer functional on Monday, 4/24/06

[pyr0ma5ta]

But if they have printing presses, why light them with $100's when you can light them with Lotuses?

You know, this is actually kind if interesting. If some rogue employee did manage to print and cut a sheet of lotuses, they would almost certainly be identified as "fakes." The criterion for determining authentic power are based (among other things like wear and general properties of magic cards) around the irregularities of a printing process that is already a decade old. In order to really make new "lotuses," they would have to spend some time making the finished product have the same characteristics of the original print runs, which I would imagine would be difficult even if higher managament was involved.

But back on topic, people already buy a million zillion boxes of whatever crap they want to print (magic or not), so these ideas are just really ridiculous.

Actually, it is rumored that R&D has a vault.  It contains basically everything Magic related, in large quantities.  It is rumored that most of ABU product was never actually sold, and it's stored in the Vault.  I'd give infinite things to just be able to have a day in the WOTC building without anyone else around, or 10 minutes in the Vault.

[Matt]

Except that it isn't true. They had a hard time making the "auction of the people" decks at the Magic Invitational a few years back, because of the guy who submitted the plague rats/black lotus deck.

[jpmeyer]

In fact, I think that any time that the Auction of the People format used Type 1 as its format, they needed to have the cards supplied by major dealers like SCG.

[dicemanx]

Except that it isn't true. They had a hard time making the "auction of the people" decks at the Magic Invitational a few years back, because of the guy who submitted the plague rats/black lotus deck.

They obviously did that to make us think there isn't a vault. Obviously.

[Klep]

Except that it isn't true. They had a hard time making the "auction of the people" decks at the Magic Invitational a few years back, because of the guy who submitted the plague rats/black lotus deck.

They obviously did that to make us think there isn't a vault. Obviously.

Shh... How are we in the TMD mod staff supposed to do our part in the conspiracy and allay suspicion if you keep questioning our points??!

[ELD]

It's honestly hard to believe.  Adding the upkeep trigger to time vault, you can't even use it in Stasis or Staxs.  My question is, how good would it be if it actually did what it says it does on the card?  If you could untap it with Voltaic Key, or Twiddle for extra turns, would it have to be banned in Vintage?  I'd imagine it'd have to be atleast restricted in Vintage and banned in Legacy, but would it be acceptable as a singleton in type 1? 

If they wanted to make it kind of work, they could go with:

Time Vault comes into play tapped.
Time Vault doesn’t untap during your untap step.
0:Untap Timevault. You skip your next turn and put a time counter on it. Play this ability only once each turn.
Tap, Remove all time counters from Time Vault: Take an extra turn after this one. Play this ability if only there’s a time counter on Time Vault.

Over what they have now.  On a side note, I also think it's very interesting that SCG has no time vaults in stock. 

[Tha Gunslinga]

It is rumored that most of ABU product was never actually sold, and it's stored in the Vault.

Because companies prefer to hold onto their products rather than sell them, right?

[Hi-Val]

As I was walking from the hotel room to the parking garage with Randy Buehler at SCG:Richmond, I asked him how he got all his cards, especially his power. I asked if Wizards had cards that he could borrow. He said that their collection only goes back to Mirage, so he had to track down or borrow older cards from other people and not the company.

And if this were a true conspiracy, it would involve the Elders of Zion, the World Bank, IMF, Freemasons and Bavarian Illuminati. So far, I've only seen the first three involved so I hesitate to call it a true coverup.

[Komatteru]

Time Vault comes into play tapped.
Time Vault doesn’t untap during your untap step.
0:Untap Timevault. You skip your next turn and put a time counter on it. Play this ability only once each turn.
Tap, Remove all time counters from Time Vault: Take an extra turn after this one. Play this ability if only there’s a time counter on Time Vault.

That wording there would indicate to me that they modified the wording specifically not to make it interact with Flame Fusillade.  As it is now, it matches Mana Vault's wording.  As like a million others have pointed out, Time Vault and Mana Vault are wording exactly the same in their Alpha/Beta/Unlimited printing. Now, the Oracle text match each other as well.

[Matt]

Except that it isn't true. They had a hard time making the "auction of the people" decks at the Magic Invitational a few years back, because of the guy who submitted the plague rats/black lotus deck.

They obviously did that to make us think there isn't a vault. Obviously.

What is the difference between having a vault and never using it, and not having a vault at all?

[jcb193]

I didn't hear anybody bitching when their Time Vaults (which had been gathering dust for a decade), all of a sudden became expensive. 

[orgcandman]

I didn't hear anybody bitching when their Time Vaults (which had been gathering dust for a decade), all of a sudden became expensive. 

no oracle changes made that happen, though. It just was that they released a card that interacted with it.

One thing is, they knew that time vault was improperly done when it combo'd with Lodestone Myr. Why didn't they errata this then?

[jcb193]

Thats true.  I guess it always feels better when a card is restricted instead of errata'd.  At least with restriction it usually will holds it's value to some extent. 

[pyr0ma5ta]

Time Vault comes into play tapped.
Time Vault doesn’t untap during your untap step.
0:Untap Timevault. You skip your next turn and put a time counter on it. Play this ability only once each turn.
Tap, Remove all time counters from Time Vault: Take an extra turn after this one. Play this ability if only there’s a time counter on Time Vault.

That wording there would indicate to me that they modified the wording specifically not to make it interact with Flame Fusillade.  As it is now, it matches Mana Vault's wording.  As like a million others have pointed out, Time Vault and Mana Vault are wording exactly the same in their Alpha/Beta/Unlimited printing. Now, the Oracle text match each other as well.

There is where you are wrong.  What's all this about counters on the TV but not on the MV?  Why does one interact with Voltaic Key and one not?

[Komatteru]

Mana Vault + Voltaic Key != infinite mana
Time Vault + Voltaic Key = infinite turns (since, you know, turns come with an untap step)

Mana Vault + Animate Artifact/March of the Machines + Instill Energy != infinite mana
Time Vault + Animate Artifact/March of the Machines + Instill Energy = infinite turns

That's the reason for the time counter.  The flavor of Time Vault is that you give up a turn -- put it into the vault -- so you can access it later.  Mana Vault is sort of the same thing I guess, although you get mana out of it immediately.

[emidln]

I sent this reply to someone who posted a "fixed" Time Vault to the Card Creation forum. It's my interpretation of the original text with an update to modern templating.

"Future Vault - 2 - Artifact

~ does not untap during your untap step.
~ comes into play tapped
<T>: You take an additional turn after this one.
Skip your next turn: put a Future counter on Future Vault.

At the beginning of your upkeep, if there is at least one Future counter on ~, you may untap ~ and remove all Future counters."

It fixes the Flame Fusillade interaction and is the closest thing I can think of that allows original interactions with the cards of its time period. This card would combo nicely wtih Twiddle and/or Stasis and it would need restricting in Vintage. It maintains future counters, but only as a way to prevent silly untapping effects. Flame Fusillade was not a card from Time Vault's time period; however, Stasis and Twiddle were and thus should still work with the card.

[Jacob Orlove]

This is the best proposed wording that I've seen yet, in terms of matching what the card says it does:

Time Vault
2
Artifact
Time Vault comes into play tapped.
If Time Vault would untap, instead you may skip your next turn. If you do, untap Time Vault. (This effect does not replace itself.)
T: take an extra turn after this one.

The only problem is that you can't really use replacement effects on untaps, because the untap step isn't supposed to involve any effects happening. I guess you could do:

Time Vault
2
Artifact
Time Vault comes into play tapped.
Time Vault does not untap as normal during your untap step.
At the beginning of your upkeep, untap Time Vault.
If Time Vault would untap, instead you may skip your next turn. If you do, untap Time Vault.
T: take an extra turn after this one.

edit: actually, that second one is almost precisely equivalent to the current oracle wording, only it's shorter and closer to the original text.

[Yare]

This is the best proposed wording that I've seen yet, in terms of matching what the card says it does:

Time Vault
2
Artifact
Time Vault comes into play tapped.
If Time Vault would untap, instead you may skip your next turn. If you do, untap Time Vault. (This effect does not replace itself.)
T: take an extra turn after this one.

The only problem is that you can't really use replacement effects on untaps, because the untap step isn't supposed to involve any effects happening. I guess you could do:

Time Vault
2
Artifact
Time Vault comes into play tapped.
Time Vault does not untap as normal during your untap step.
At the beginning of your upkeep, untap Time Vault.
If Time Vault would untap, instead you may skip your next turn. If you do, untap Time Vault.
T: take an extra turn after this one.

edit: actually, that second one is almost precisely equivalent to the current oracle wording, only it's shorter and closer to the original text.

The second wording does not work because you could just choose not to have the "untap" effect be replaced by "skip and untap" due to the "may."  Hence, Time Vault untaps every turn and you get infinite turns for free with that wording.

[Robert the Swordsman]

Mana Vault + Voltaic Key != infinite mana

Uh... are you sure?

[Komatteru]

Mana Vault + Voltaic Key != infinite mana

Uh... are you sure?

Unless you have an infinite number of Keys, yes. You need to tap the Key to untap the Vault.  Then what?

[vartemis]

Mana Vault + Voltaic Key != infinite mana

Uh... are you sure?

Unless you have an infinite number of Keys, yes. You need to tap the Key to untap the Vault.  Then what?

i dont know, but he might have not understood that  != is =/=.  it looks like it says "Mana Vault + Voltaic Key = infinite mana" with an exclamation point in it.

j

[Jacob Orlove]

Time Vault
2
Artifact
Time Vault comes into play tapped.
Time Vault does not untap as normal during your untap step.
At the beginning of your upkeep, untap Time Vault.
If Time Vault would untap, instead you may skip your next turn. If you do, untap Time Vault.
T: take an extra turn after this one.

That wording does not work because you could just choose not to have the "untap" effect be replaced by "skip and untap" due to the "may."  Hence, Time Vault untaps every turn and you get infinite turns for free with that wording.

No, it's a replacement effect. You replace "untap Time Vault" with "you may skip your next turn. If you do, untap". The replacement effect itself is not optional, only the skipping of your next turn is.

Compare it to dredge: (If you would draw a card, instead you may put exactly X cards from the top of your library into your graveyard. If you do, return this card from your graveyard to your hand. Otherwise, draw a card.)
That "otherwise, draw a card" line would not be on the ability text if the effect works the way you describe.

[Yare]

No, it's a replacement effect. You replace "untap Time Vault" with "you may skip your next turn. If you do, untap". The replacement effect itself is not optional, only the skipping of your next turn is.

I stand corrected.  I do feel like it could be worded a little more descriptively though.  Then again, that's kind of the point I guess: to avoid complicated effects for what should be a relatively simple event. :/

Edit: Perhaps it could have reminder text like "(Otherwise, Time Vault does not untap)" or something.

[Jacob Orlove]

Oracle wordings don't get reminder text--they're not for the players who would need it, especially since whatever the oracle wording for vault is, it won't be on any physical card.

[Robert the Swordsman]

i dont know, but he might have not understood that  != is =/=.  it looks like it says "Mana Vault + Voltaic Key = infinite mana" with an exclamation point in it.

j

My apologies, I'm a clown.

[rvs]

To be honest, I think the Dragon is safe because no one wants to go remotely near that disaster.  About 90% of the judges I know don't know how the thing really works

I read this as: I don't know a lot of judges. Anyone who is one, should know the basics about it by now.

[dicemanx]

I really liked this post from the legacy forums on SCG:

if WotC had any balls, they would errata Time Vault so that it says

Time Vault 2
Artifact
0: Untap Time Vault.

and that is all. That's all we use it for and we pay $100 for it. Give it to us.

[Komatteru]

To be honest, I think the Dragon is safe because no one wants to go remotely near that disaster.  About 90% of the judges I know don't know how the thing really works

I read this as: I don't know a lot of judges. Anyone who is one, should know the basics about it by now.

A lot of the Level 2's here who do not judge Vintage do not know the intracies of the combo.  They know the basic interaction, but if things get hairy, and someone calls a judge over to figure out what goes here and how all the timing works, things usually break down pretty quick.  In fact, I've sworn off ever playing Dragon again because I don't want to deal with judge calls about it, as I've been to many Vintage events where the judge comes over and starts reading one of animate dead or Bengorger Dragon (anyone remember some of the problems at the last Chicago?).  Most likely bad judges who shouldn't be judging Vintage events, but, unfortunately, that's sometimes what you get.  Not everyone is lucky enough to have Klep and Matt V at all their tournaments. 

Of course, most of the judges I know aren't very high level.  But at at least half the tournaments I've been to, someone in the room has had to spit out a ruling on Dragon because the judge came over and started floundering.



On a side note, the Dragon combo does not work because of errata.  It works because of a legitimate loophole in the rules.  Time Vault works because it was given the wording it was in Oracle.  The Dragon combo would still work if you played both the animate spell and the Dragon as printed (although, it would get pretty confusing pretty quickly under new rules, since targeting with auras now works differently than it did with animate dead was printed).