Best anti oath options for U/r Fish

[The Chosen One]

Here is what I play, it's unpowered but it serves me well:

4 Volcanic Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Polluted delta
2 Flooded strand
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Island
2 Mountain

Creatures:
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Gorilla Shaman
2 Goblin Vandal

Other:
4 Force of will
3 Null rod
4 Stifle
2 Genju of the Spires
4 Brainstorm
3 Curiosity
2 Daze
2 Fire/Ice

Sideboard:
4 Extract
1 Fire/Ice
4 Pyroblast
3 Shattering Spree
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Viashino Heretic

The main problem I think is my sideboards obvious hate towards Stax. The four extracts helps a little bit, but it's not enough... What has everyone found to be really solid against oath? Waterfront bouncer? Gilded drake? Annul? Input greatly appreciated!

[M.Solymossy]

Fire/Ice and stifle hold them off pretty decently, and Extracts can take akroma.  Guilded drake + Waterfront bouncer is hilarious, and Annul is great, too..

[themeek]

Jester's Cap seems good to me.

[warble]

Goblin Bombardment.  Gilded Drake is loads of fun too, but with your build including factories and genju it would seem like you'd prefer bombardment.  Drake works best with white with swords to beat down with one creature while swordsing the rest.  Also, you're crazy for not running misdirection.

[Joblin Velder]

I used to play Drake in the side a year or so ago. It was pretty decent. I don't know if its better than Extract or Goblin Bombardment, though.

[Gabethebabe]

Jester's Cap seems good to me.

Are you suggesting Jester´s Cap in Fish?
You mean the Jester´s Cap that costs 4 mana to play and 2 to activate and doesn´t work under Null Rod? That Jester´s Cap?
 :shock:

What you need in UR Fish is stuff that dealt with Oath or something that is able to deal with multiple creatures that are oathed up.

Extract is shit. You need to resolve two or three to take out their creatures.

Gilded Drake is shit. You can only play it after they have resolved oath and have oathed up a creature, means that Oath is sitting there, all their mana untapped. You don´t want to be in that situation. And if they happen to Oath up Spirit/Razia before Akroma, you can stil lose, even if Drake resolves.

The best cards that have been suggested until now are Annul and WF Bouncer. These are quite solid against Oath.

[themeek]

Against Oath, why not simply side out the Nulls, won't you agree that a single Cap will wreck Oath?

[pyr0ma5ta]

The problem is, between the 4 mana cc and 2 mana activation of the cap and Oath's Forces, Leaks, Duresses, and early oaths, you'll never, ever, ever cast and use the Cap.

[Imsomniac101]

Extract is shit. You need to resolve two or three to take out their creatures.

I disagree. Extract is actually the best answer to Oath. Take Akroma then get 2+ turns to deal with the other creature. For U, that sounds pretty damn good to me. It's miles better than having to deal with a creature that's already on the board.

I think Rushing River is a card that's overlooked here. It might not be a hard answer to Oath, but it's not dead in other matchups either.

You have plenty of cards that can stall them for long enough to get in with your Manlands. Heck, this gets even better with the Genju.

[Illuvatar Reborn]

Extract is shit. You need to resolve two or three to take out their creatures.

I disagree. Extract is actually the best answer to Oath. Take Akroma then get 2+ turns to deal with the other creature. For U, that sounds pretty damn good to me. It's miles better than having to deal with a creature that's already on the board.

I think Rushing River is a card that's overlooked here. It might not be a hard answer to Oath, but it's not dead in other matchups either.

You have plenty of cards that can stall them for long enough to get in with your Manlands. Heck, this gets even better with the Genju.

i agree, extract is the main plan that oath itself uses against the mirror, so why wouldn't it work for fish? 
i wouldn't use cap, for reasons already explained.
and one more thing: how is genju doing for you? the reason i ask is because, well, frankly i have opted it for other cards such as flying men.

[Harlequin]

Extract is an amazing card for decks outside of oath as well.  any Combo, Control, or Combo-control deck will take "heavy damage" from a single extract.  These decks are build around only a few actual win conditions.  Be it a copy or two of tendrils, Tinker->DSC, or big fat angels. 

With 4 Extract + 4 Stifle ... you have tons of both pro-active and active responses to oath.  You do lack the reactive control that white benefits from (in the form of STP) and If you find that is where you are lacking, then run a few copies of Waterfront bouncer.  He is only so good though, you wouldn't put him JUST for Tinker DSC... so his usefullness is rather narrow outside of Oath.  Waerfront bouncer is in that horribly awkward spot of "Too Narrow" for the Main deck, but "too weak" for the sideboard, IMO.

[goblin stir fry]

i find running rushing river, echoing truth, rootwater thief, and waterfront bouncer to be the best plan. All of these are in my main and seem to work out well in alot of matchups and make my oath matchup much better.

[The Chosen One]

I would lean towards removing the genju for 2 maindecked rootwater thiefs. Thiefs are solid against alot of decks and their ability costs the same as the genju anyways..

[Gabethebabe]

Well, I have to disagree with you all disagreeing with me

Extract costs you a card and does nothing to the board position, nor does it stop oath from resolving or triggering.
Extract one creature, you still have to deal with the other.

The best plan Fish has vs Oath is avoid Oath from resolving (Annul), avoid it from triggering (Goblin Bombardment) or have re-usable bounce (Waterfront Bouncer).

[i agree, extract is the main plan that oath itself uses against the mirror, so why wouldn't it work for fish? 

Dude, that is a rather brainless argument. You can´t compare the Oath mirror to the Fish/Oath matchup. That is like comparing pears and telephone books.

Oath mirrors do not center about the resolving of Oath, in fact both are surely siding out a number of Oaths. Resolving an Oath vs Oath can be suicide. Oath mirrors are slow, because one will only resolve an Oath when there is also token advantage. So there is time to Extract your opponent. One Extract is already good, because if you Extract Akroma and get yours on the table, you appear to be winning. Akroma > Spirit/Razia/Darksteel Colossus.

Fish loses to just any creature Oath comes up with. One Extract does not give you enough bag for the buck. if I´m the Oath player I will be happy to NOT counter your (first) Extract.

[warble]

I agree that annul is very powerful against oath, but that is combined with a heavier counter base than you run.  Since you don't have it annul should be backed up by goblin bombardment.  Annul is amazing against workshop and would free up some of that artifact hate that you have lots of love towards.  That being said I haven't tried to ever hate oath with red/blue fish without goblin bombardment.  If I did I think I'd probably end up running annul and chalice of the void set at 2.  It's really stupid but cleans up the fish mirror decently and if you can plop threats down early enough to play chalice at 1 as well oath likely has 1 answer in their deck in order to not scoop (rushing river).  I also favor chalice against combo because you really don't have to win against combo, all you have to do is survive.  I know the synergy is a pitfall but the added versatility in your sideboard combined with what looks to be a good mixture of casting costs of your threats and counterbase in your maindeck should allow you to use chalice.  Daze will be backing up the chalice and running a few misdirection will increase your opportunity to actually counter the one rushing river that oath likely has left in (likely to deal with your genju's)

If I could choose to attack oath or throw their spirits back at them I'd really prefer to just throw those spirits back with bombardment.  Trying to weed through an oath deck and steal all of their threats is too reliant on early disruption and drawing those extracts and beating with waterfront bouncer at the same time (that requires relative infinite mana for a fish deck).  Against a turn 1 mox orchard oath (that oath typically lucksacks into at least 5 or 6 games per tournament) running annul or anything to deal with the casting of oath is no good at all.  It's bounce and bombardment that will save you from broken oath turns, and that's really the fight you want post-sideboard. 

[Moxlotus]

Extract in fish is ass against Oath.  Oath should be bringing in more creatures and have a total of 3 or even 4 creatures post-board.

[The Chosen One]

I don't know if this option has ever been considered, but what about ensnaring bridge? here is a possible change to the maindeck and sideboard:

Maindeck:
-2 genju of the spires
+2 Rootwater Thief

Sideboard will be:
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Fire/Ice
2 Goblin Bombardment
4 Pyroblast
3 Annul
2 Rack And Ruin
1 Viashino Heretic

What would be the best cards to remove/board in against oath?

[klu]

Simic Sky Swallower
Creature - Leviathan 6/6
Flying, trample
Simic Sky Swallower can't be the target of spells or abilities.

are all fish player so blind they've not seen that card coming???
what will be the answer then? Gilded drake? let me laugh...
More seriously, a card that will be able to be a good sb against oath for any kind of blue based deck is Spell Snare

Spell Snare
Instant
Counter target spell with converted mana cost 2.

That card is really usefull to deal with around 15-20 cards oath is playing :
-4 oath
-4/8 counters (drain/leak/counterspells)
-merchant scroll
-impulse
-chalice for 1
-demonic, time walk..
-krosian reclamation...

another card that may be used is diabolic edict post sb.

I talked about the swallower but i don't even talk about the tidespout Tyrant that is really insane.

Tidespout Tyrant
Creature - Djinn 5/5
Flying
Whenever you play a spell, return target permanent to its owner's hand.

I have to say that fish will be kicked out from the metagame by those two new versions of oath. Sorry to have your dreams falling down..

[god_of_war]

goblin bombardment is a house against oath. granted you'll be depending on your manlands for the rest of the game but its better than dying in the first few turns. why not try running chain of vapor as a one-mana bounce spell? it might just come in handy in the first turn if they go orchard-mox into oath

[warble]

That sideboard is completely insane.  It doesn't matter what you take out as long as you put in bombardment, bridge, annul and sometimes pyroblast.  Are you sure you can play with a sideboard that looks like that against, say, goblins or workshop?  You don't have a 3rd rack and ruin or pyroclasm.

[ketchupgun]

I used to play UR fish. I found Rootwater thief awesome...I still use him in my fun little 2 headed giant legacy tournaments.

I played around with Seasinger, though it never got the play time it deserved for adequate condemnation or praise.
Also, there is a deck around here that uses maindeck Old Man of The Sea..i believe people call it OFM...it's kinda fishy.

Last time I played this matchup, between rootwater and SB annuls (and stalling green mana), I won.

btw...chain of vapour (when I was playing this deck as landstill seemed like a good idea) but in the end, it's just better to get those creatures out of that deck...and jester's cap is too slow for fish.

[Mantis]

Here's a secret: Waterfront Bouncer.

[Imsomniac101]

Have a look at Oath's new toy in the SSS thread in the same forum. Another reason why Extract is still the best card against Oath.

[Gabethebabe]

Have a look at Oath's new toy in the SSS thread in the same forum. Another reason why Extract is still the best card against Oath.

*sigh*
Feel free to not read my arguments and try Extract and lose badly to Oath.

The new creature means that Waterfront Bouncers disappear as anti-oath tech and that Annul and Goblin Bombardment remain.

The new creature may be untouchable, but it hasn´t got haste and vigilance. Which will matter in games.

[Moriarty]

Rootwater Thief/Extract CAN work, especially if u also play StP. But in UR it's not the best strategy. I agree with Gabethebabe that the best strategy for UR fish is A) keep Oath off the board (Annul), and B) if A doesn't work, keep Oath from triggering (Bombardment) and beat down with Mishra's. It's also entirely possible to race the Oath deck to 20 even after Oath triggers, especially if you have burn and/or stalling cards (ie Fire/Ice). If the Oath creatures now become untargetable as standard (SSS) then maybe its time to look at untargeted removal/stalling cards such as [card]Curfew[/card].

[Imsomniac101]

Have a look at Oath's new toy in the SSS thread in the same forum. Another reason why Extract is still the best card against Oath.

*sigh*
Feel free to not read my arguments and try Extract and lose badly to Oath.

The new creature means that Waterfront Bouncers disappear as anti-oath tech and that Annul and Goblin Bombardment remain.

The new creature may be untouchable, but it hasn´t got haste and vigilance. Which will matter in games.

I read your arguments. I've been playing Extract in my board for ages now and it still rocks. Keeping Oath off the table is certainly a viable strategy ..... for a little while. Then when Oath hits the table your almost certainly screwed cuz you can't deal with more than 2 creatures.

Annul is a fine card to run. But what if you're opponent Duresses before playing Oath?

I've never played with Bombardment becuase I think it is too narrow a sideboard card, and forces you to run Factory as the win condition, which imo has always been a subpar card. Sure it's a fine card if Oath constitutes 80% of the meta, but if that were the case, UW something would be a much better choice then.

Oh yeah. My understanding was that the new creature will be used to replace Irridescent in the side and not the hasted Angels in the main.

Curfew looks like an interesting option.

[AngryPheldagrif]

None of you are going to like this or agree with this, but my best advice as an experienced Oath player is to accept it as a horrible matchup and move on. Things like Extract, Waterfront Bouncer, Annul, etc will certainly slow them down, but unless you are willing to devote 5-10 maindeck slots and an equal number on the sideboard you will never move the match even close to 50/50.

You are not UW Fish. UW Fish can easily incorporate boatloads of Oath hate (such as the player I faced today who ran Meddling Mage, Disenchant, Annul, Waterfront Bouncer, Stormscape Apprentice, Gilded Drake, and Swords to Plowshares and still lost to me) and thus can usually devastate average Oath players with all this.

UR loses the truly effective and permanent solutions. Extract is horrible unless you find them in heavy multiples and almost everything else is rendered moot by Sky Swallower. The best advice I would give you is to save the space. If you want to run Bouncers or Annul that are uselful in other matches then go ahead, but you are best off conserving the space for matches that really matter. If Oath is so prevalent that this is not a viable option then you probably have no choice but to switch to UW.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Pheldagrif has an important point.

While it is possible to stall Oath with U/R, and the matchup isn't completely unwinable, it is better to just accept it as a bad matchup and do what you can with what you have.

U/R Fish is a metagame deck, just like any other Fish deck, but the metagame it should be used in is quite different than U/W.  U/R is good in the mirror, or against other Vintage aggro-control decks.  It has awesome tools to deal with Drain based decks, and is on par or better against Stax than U/W.  The deck is made for a different metagame, and if you are in a Oath heavy metagame, you should probably switch to a different deck.

[warble]

I would board out your red creatures for the hate.  As the above stated, you're going to win with mishra's factory and genju beatdown once bombardment hits.  Since you are running genju I don't consider it the impossible matchup that they do simply because genju and factories can race to the oath player's bounce relatively easily and you should be able to resolve a R1 enchantment against oath with Fish.  Fish can almost always squeeze a few spells in against Oath especially if you were to put multiples in.  I wouldn't board out the lavamancers if you're putting in bridges, instead I would take out your gorillas & goblins and depending on the build some combination of null rod, stifle and ninja.  It's not as bad a matchup as they make it out to be because you have maindecked 4 factories and 2 genju's.

Note:  And if you're boarding with that board it looks like you have 12 sideboard cards so you may end up taking out all of the null rods and ninjas and a stifle.  I don't believe any matchups are dead.  Sideboards provide a house for decks like this to live in.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I would board out your red creatures for the hate.  As the above stated, you're going to win with mishra's factory and genju beatdown once bombardment hits.  Since you are running genju I don't consider it the impossible matchup that they do simply because genju and factories can race to the oath player's bounce relatively easily and you should be able to resolve a R1 enchantment against oath with Fish.  Fish can almost always squeeze a few spells in against Oath especially if you were to put multiples in.  I wouldn't board out the lavamancers if you're putting in bridges, instead I would take out your gorillas & goblins and depending on the build some combination of null rod, stifle and ninja.  It's not as bad a matchup as they make it out to be because you have maindecked 4 factories and 2 genju's.

Note:  And if you're boarding with that board it looks like you have 12 sideboard cards so you may end up taking out all of the null rods and ninjas and a stifle.  I don't believe any matchups are dead.  Sideboards provide a house for decks like this to live in.

Even with hate and manlands the matchup is going to be hard.  After boarding I wouldn't go so far to say that U/R has a GOOD matchup against Oath.  It definitely isn't an autolose, pre or post board.  However, just like WS Aggro has a bad game against Drains, U/R Fish has a bad game against Oath.

Your boarding plan will probably be the most effective, but I have one problem.  I would not take out stifle.  If Oath does come down before you have bombardment, you need stifle to stall them.  I've beaten Oath like this a couple times.