[Single Card Discussion] Tangle Wire

[Brapp]

4 Tangle Wire was an auto-include in the Stax decks of old.

Today, two major Stax archetypes exist. There is the mono-red UbaStax version, including Jester's Cap versions. Then there is the 5 color Stax version.
The decks operate, in many ways, very differently from each other. 5c Stax has more broken plays, via tutors. UbaStax is a deck focused on pure synergy and less brokenness.

Many decks don't run Tangle Wire. I feel Tangle Wire deserves a spot in UbaStax.

As a disclaimer - in no way am I a better player or deck designer than Robert Vroman. If he doesn't include Tangle Wire, there must be some very good reason why. These opinions come solely from my testing and own inferences.

UbaStax's critical turns come between turns 3 and 5, normally. The deck normally reserves turns 1 and 2 for mana ramping, Wastelanding, Chalicing, and other formalities. Turns 3-5 are normally where the business gets done. UbaStax uses these turns to put the meat on the board. E.g. Jester's Cap, Uba Mask, Smokestack.

So clearly, turns 3-5 can be the most dangerous for Stax if the opponent uses disruption. Stax really wants these turns for itself. Once Stax has used its three turns to build its board, the opponent is at a severe disadvantage and will likely lose. The key for Stax is surviving until turn 5, playing its threats, and dealing with opponents early threats.

Through my testing, I feel Tangle Wire accomplishes these tasks excellently. It gums up opponent's resources. It denies combo the mana to go off and denies control the mana to cast spells. In the Stax mirror, it creates tempo advantage.

Tangle Wire works. It combos well with Goblin Welder, and has huge synergy with Smokestack. A lot of times it's a lock component. But most importantly, it gives Stax the freedom to get through the critical turns 3-5

[Polynomial P]

In recent tournaments, you couldnt be more wrong. Look at the Day 2 lists from the last Star City games tournament found here:
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/deckshow.php?&t%5BC1%5D=vin&start_date=2006-03-26&end_date=2006-03-26

Both the 5th place deck (Monored Ubastax varient) and the 7th place deck (5c Stax) run a full compliment of Tangle Wires. Furthermore, Roland Chang, the vintage world champ has been playing tanglewires forever:

Recently here http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27440.0
and here http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27301.0

Tanglewire is alive and well in the newer Stax lists and they have been floating in and out of Vroman's lists as well.

Edit: fixed links

[Brapp]

Is the Sphere of Resistance vs. Tangle Wire decision mainly a metagame choice?

[Evenpence]

I've written pretty extensively on the subject of Tangle Wire in Ubastax.  You can find it on the second page of the Vintage Open Forum, or by just clicking here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=27240.0

I don't really know if it's Tangle Wire vs. Sphere of Resistance, although my Day 1 and Day 2 lists would indicate that.  Sphere of Resistance was beyond ass for me on Day 1 - it never once (ever!) helped me, but certainly hurt me in my Game 1 T8 game against Demars.  I sided them out EVERY SINGLE MATCH, except for my few matches against combo.  Defense Grid was simply a better choice against Drains, and they went out for each other perfectly as I ran 3 copies of each.  That's really the only reason that I wanted Sphere of Resistance in the MD - to slow down combo and to make drains cost more as well as the abusableness of the drain mana.  Well, Defense Grid makes Drains and Forces harder to cast, so I just switched them out against Flame Vault Gifts.

Sphere of Resistance is much, much better against Combo.  It's very hard for a combo deck to win through multiples of them, even with multiple bounce spells in the MD.  Tangle Wire, however, is still good against Combo.  You can ask Joe Davis about that one.    It's not amazing or anything, but it's still decent.

Against everything else though, Tangle Wire is superior.  IMO, Ubastax shouldn't have a problem with combo if it's built right.  I don't believe I've lost a match to combo ever.  I'll have to think about that one, but I'm pretty sure I haven't.

I've been playing with Tangle Wires in Ubastax ever since Feb. 15th, when I started the thread.  Tangle Wire was initially thought to be very bad, although my theory and playtesting had told me that Tangle Wire was more abusable in Ubastax than it has ever been, and I believe I was correct.

So yeah, other people think Tangle Wire is really good in Ubastax too - although I do have to admit people like playing Resist Orbs over Spheres.  I always see people using UbaCap decks similiar to my Day 1 list with Spheres instead of Tangle Wires in Top 8s, but I really do believe the card to be inferior in most circumstances to Tangle Wire.

I played with Spheres Day 1 because I was expecting ALOT of combo.  Even though there was a good amount of combo there, I didn't get paired up against it all that much, and when I did, I never drew any Spheres.

EDIT:

Quote is from me on the aforementioned thread.

Sphere of Resistance:

+� Exponentially better against Combo.
+� Worse against Oath.
+� Great with Stax.
+� Good with Monkey.
+� Good on the play.
+� Good against control.� (Drains aren't affected that much, but FoW is.)
+� Slightly lower casting cost than Tangle Wire.
+� Never diminishes.
+� Has cumulative effects which can be game-breaking.

-� Effects are not one-sided.� It hurts you.
-� Bad with Null Rod.
-� Workshop dependant.
-� Mox dependant.

Tangle Wire:

+� Is virtually one-sided.� Sphere is not.
+� Who cares about Workshop?
+� INSANE with Monkey.� Much better than Sphere.
+� Insane on the draw.� INSANE.
+� Insane with Stax.� Much better than Sphere when both are ramped.
+� Insane with Welder.� Sphere does nothing with Welder.
+� Better against control.� (FoW isn't affected that much, but Drain is).
+� Better against Oath.
+� Better against random jank aggro.

-� Worse against 5c Stax.
-� Horrible with Null Rod.� HORRIBLE.
-� Diminishes over time.
-� Welder dependant.
-� Cumulative effects are not impressive.

As you can see, Sphere according to my analysis a long time ago, is much more of a good all-around card, with detriments that aren't extremely detrimental (heh), except in multiples.  The detriments also get bigger as you get more of them into play, although their positive aspects increase as well.

Tangle Wire is much more hit-or-miss.

[vroman]

I fully endorse tangle over resistor. tangle is actually good against combo. they dont win turn 1, and tangle basicaly makes them start over w their mana development every turn while it lasts. tangle + welder locks down combo effectively since they are very permanent light. tangle also synergizes great w smokestack and uba. resistor might make spells cost 1 more, but tangle effectively makes them cost more equal to fade counters.

[PacmanXSA]

The decision is metagame dependant.  The argument that Wire over Sphere is better against Combo is moot seeing as Stax's matchup versus combo, that does not win on the first turn, is above average anyways.  Where I think that Sphere shines is in the control matchups.  CS or Gifts would probably almost always rather stare down a tangle and do stupid things during their upkeep instead of having to pay 1 more for everything that they play.  Tangle wire, however, shines against aggro.  However, there are better SB cards that can be played to increase your odds in the aggro matchup like E.Bridge and the like.  Tangle is only really good with Welder in play as well whereas a first turn sphere can totally buy you turns on its own.

Pac

[sean1i0]

Where I think that Sphere shines is in the control matchups.  CS or Gifts would probably almost always rather stare down a tangle and do stupid things during their upkeep instead of having to pay 1 more for everything that they play.

However, it is worth noting that Tangle Wire can keep Mana Drains off-line for a few turns, which is amazing for the Stax player.  With just two lands and a mox, they can drain one of Stax's artifacts, produce huge amounts of mana, and gain enough tempo/card advantage/answers in that one turn that they will have virtually won.  With just two lands and mox against a fresh tangle wire, they're shit out of luck.

[Evenpence]

The decision is metagame dependant.  The argument that Wire over Sphere is better against Combo is moot seeing as Stax's matchup versus combo, that does not win on the first turn, is above average anyways.  Where I think that Sphere shines is in the control matchups.  CS or Gifts would probably almost always rather stare down a tangle and do stupid things during their upkeep instead of having to pay 1 more for everything that they play.

The problem is, though, even if they have to pay 1 more for everything, they usually have drain mana up by turn 2.  Example:

Them:  Island, Mox, Go.
Me:  Sphere of Resistance.
Them:  Island, Go.
Me:  Smokestack.  MANA DRAINED!

Then they just use the 4 extra mana to accelerate like crazy because paying 1 more is of no consequence when they have 4 floating in their pool.  Thirst for Knowledge?  Okay.  Gifts Ungiven?  Sure.  Even when they're on the draw, they have the capability to do that, although it's much more limited (of course).

Me:  Sphere of Resistance, Go.
Them:  Island, Mox, Go.
Me:  Smokestack.  Tap Mox, Force of Will.
Them:  Island (they have drain mana up and are ready to go by now).

Granted, in the second example Tangle Wire wouldn't be much better at all (as it's unplayable first turn), but the first instance is one where Tangle Wire can really shine.

I have found Tangle Wire to be much better against Drain-Based decks.  They can do whatever they want during their upkeep, just as long as they never drain one of my spells to accelerate their gameplan like crazy.  The ONLY thing I am scared of in a Drain deck is Mana Drain.  Tangle Wire effectively neutralizes that strategy, forcing them to counter either the Tangle Wire or be cut off from Drain.  If they are cut off by drain, they only have a few counterspells (Force of Will) against my numerous threats (the whole deck).

I fully agree with what Sean1i0 has said.  I have made up my mind not to play with Resist Orbs in the future unless I'm expecting severely large amounts of combo.

EDIT:

UbaStax's critical turns come between turns 3 and 5, normally. The deck normally reserves turns 1 and 2 for mana ramping, Wastelanding, Chalicing, and other formalities. Turns 3-5 are normally where the business gets done. UbaStax uses these turns to put the meat on the board. E.g. Jester's Cap, Uba Mask, Smokestack.

I don't recall seeing these paragraphs in your original post.  You must have editted it. 

Actually, the most critical turn (by far) is 1.  Your opponent doesn't have drain mana up yet, or if he's not playing drains, you have to disrupt him.  In Vroman's Ubastax primer, he says that if you can't lay an immediate threat or a welder, the hand must be mulliganed.  This is a very good mulliganing rule, and one that I constantly use.

The most critical turn is Turn 1 because if you get a first turn smokey against drains, for instance, you've pretty much won the game, especially if coupled with Chalice @ 0, Welder + Bazaar, Crucible - I mean, anything really.  If you get first turn Chalice at 0 and 1 on the play, you've pretty much won the game, especially if you have multiple threats in hand (so you can eventually get past countermagic).

Turns 3-5 are the outplaying of what you've done on Turns 1 and 2, actually.  Turns 3-5 are far less critical.

So clearly, turns 3-5 can be the most dangerous for Stax if the opponent uses disruption. Stax really wants these turns for itself. Once Stax has used its three turns to build its board, the opponent is at a severe disadvantage and will likely lose. The key for Stax is surviving until turn 5, playing its threats, and dealing with opponents early threats.

The only disruption that Stax gets hung up on is countermagic (common) and other Stax disruption (like chalice for 0 when your opponent played several moxes and you're also holding a few with no Bazaar.  You don't need to deal with early threats.  The old list only had 2 Duplicants in it because once you prevent your opponent from playing spells, Smokestack mops up what's left, and you have a few pieces of insurance (like Karn or Duplicant) just in case.

Through my testing, I feel Tangle Wire accomplishes these tasks excellently. It gums up opponent's resources. It denies combo the mana to go off and denies control the mana to cast spells. In the Stax mirror, it creates tempo advantage.

Wire's main intent is to keep drains off target, but it also helps in comboing with nearly everything in the deck, and provides for some very powerful topdecks (for instance, late game, you forced through a smokey which is now ramped but opponent has a million permanents and is going to win next turn, but you topdeck Tangle Wire)!

Tangle Wire works. It combos well with Goblin Welder, and has huge synergy with Smokestack. A lot of times it's a lock component. But most importantly, it gives Stax the freedom to get through the critical turns 3-5.

I think you mean to get to turns 3-5 in good position, which is totally true.

[meadbert]

So I have been playing 4x Tangle Wire and 4xSphere of Resistance but I dropped Chalice of the Void from the main.

Am I just crazy?

I still board Chalice in every time I am on the play.  On the draw I find that opponents tend to play their 0 and 1cc bombs before I get a chance to drop Chalice.
Also games 2/3 I know what I am playing.  I will know to drop Chalice on 2 if I am playing Oath etc. 

Game one on the play I hate blindly dropping Chalice@0 only to find I am playing Fish or Chalice@1 only to find I am playing Workshop Aggro.

Against Control I like Sphere better than Tangle Wire, but they actually work well together.  Tangle Wire taps out your opponent and then Sphere makes Force of Will cost 1,
so they can't even use their Force of Wills.

[Brapp]

UbaStax's critical turns come between turns 3 and 5, normally. The deck normally reserves turns 1 and 2 for mana ramping, Wastelanding, Chalicing, and other formalities. Turns 3-5 are normally where the business gets done. UbaStax uses these turns to put the meat on the board. E.g. Jester's Cap, Uba Mask, Smokestack.

I don't recall seeing these paragraphs in your original post.  You must have editted it. 



I think you mean to get to turns 3-5 in good position, which is totally true.

Actually, that was in my original post. I edited the post after I realized I'd included some inaccurate info about Stax in tournaments. I deleted a couple lines of text, but nothing that affected my position.

I agree, turn 1 is huge. If you can, you open with Shop, Mox, Chalice at 0, and Crucible of Worlds/Smokestack/etc., by all means, open with that. However, if Force of Will gets in the way, or if I simply don't hold such broken plays, turns 3 and 4, and 5 to a lesser extent, are where the meat of the deck drops.

Tangle Wire protects any mid-game plays from Drains, and also denies my opponent the mana to do anything porductive (if they're not playing Drain). If they can't play anything, that turn 4 Smokestack activation is going to hurt a lot (assuming you weren't able to play Smokey on turn 1).

You're right, though, Sir Evenpence, a hand without a strong turn 1 play does not work. I've suggested Tangle Wire as the means to finishing off the opponent mid-game.

[sean1i0]

So I have been playing 4x Tangle Wire and 4xSphere of Resistance but I dropped Chalice of the Void from the main.

Am I just crazy?

I still board Chalice in every time I am on the play.  On the draw I find that opponents tend to play their 0 and 1cc bombs before I get a chance to drop Chalice.
Also games 2/3 I know what I am playing.  I will know to drop Chalice on 2 if I am playing Oath etc. 

Game one on the play I hate blindly dropping Chalice@0 only to find I am playing Fish or Chalice@1 only to find I am playing Workshop Aggro.

Well, while I can honestly say that I love me some chalice of the void, I don't think I could quite call dropping them for spheres inherently wrong, although I'm fairly sure that there are some experienced Stax players on this board that would; that is, I really mean to say that I couldn't call it inherently wrong as long as null rods are out of your build.  My meaning there is that I've found before through a few games of testing that 4 x Sphere of Resistance + 4 x Tangle Wire + 3 x Null Rod + 1 x Trinisphere is just way too much pressure on your own mana base.  For myself, I am quite content with a configuration of 4 x Chalice of the Void + 3 x Null Rod + 1 x Trinisphere (obviously) + some number of tangle wires in Uba Stax.  As far as 5c Stax goes, I have found success with both 3 x Sphere of Resistance and 4 x Sphere of Resistance.

[Sean Ryan]

There are very few "inherently wrong" decisions in a card pool as powerful as Vintage.  The cream rises to the top...and there's alot of cream.

Why don't you ask the "World Champ" about Chalice?
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=13130

The metagame has changed but last I checked Chang still has Chalice in his SB b/c. they are not powerful enough on the draw and you lack the knowledge of what to set them to in game 1.

That being said, I love Chalice, but there's only so much room and one must make hard decisions when constructing in Vintage b/c. the cards are so powerful.

It really comes down to the build and the metagame...like always.

Sean

[meadbert]

There are very few "inherently wrong" decisions in a card pool as powerful as Vintage.  The cream rises to the top...and there's alot of cream.

Why don't you ask the "World Champ" about Chalice?
http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=13130

The metagame has changed but last I checked Chang still has Chalice in his SB b/c. they are not powerful enough on the draw and you lack the knowledge of what to set them to in game 1.

That being said, I love Chalice, but there's only so much room and one must make hard decisions when constructing in Vintage b/c. the cards are so powerful.

It really comes down to the build and the metagame...like always.

Sean

Chang runs colored Stax which does not have bazaar.  This makes Chalice less powerful.  With Bazaar you can Bazaar away your dead cards so Chalice is inherently better in Uba Stax than it is in Colored Stax.  But game one Chalice is generally weaker.

[meadbert]

Well, while I can honestly say that I love me some chalice of the void, I don't think I could quite call dropping them for spheres inherently wrong, although I'm fairly sure that there are some experienced Stax players on this board that would; that is, I really mean to say that I couldn't call it inherently wrong as long as null rods are out of your build.  My meaning there is that I've found before through a few games of testing that 4 x Sphere of Resistance + 4 x Tangle Wire + 3 x Null Rod + 1 x Trinisphere is just way too much pressure on your own mana base.  For myself, I am quite content with a configuration of 4 x Chalice of the Void + 3 x Null Rod + 1 x Trinisphere (obviously) + some number of tangle wires in Uba Stax.  As far as 5c Stax goes, I have found success with both 3 x Sphere of Resistance and 4 x Sphere of Resistance.

So I don't see how Null Rod + Tanglewire is a problem.

You never have to tap more than 3 to Tanglewire.  If I have Rod + Tanglewire that is already two.  Since your Moxen are already dead to Null Rod anyway you can harmlessly tap those.

Null Rod + Wire is rather strong actually.

[Sean Ryan]

The primary concern is where the metagame is shifting. 

Drain decks have been dominating the early part of 2006 taking 14 of the 24 spots at top8s in Richmond and Waterbury, with Slaver being the deck to beat.  Both Ritual and Shop based decks placed 4 decks in the recent top8s, but Shops could not break the top4.   

This is very similar to where the metagme was just over a year ago, dominated by Control Slaver.  Kevin Cron was able to beat this metagme with with his highly customized welderless Stax that utilized Chalice over Wire.  However, I don't think this is the right direction to take Stax right now.  The power of Welder and Bazaar is to great to resurrect CronStax.  Even  Chang's most recent 5c Stax lists have a single Bazaar rather than clunky Thirsts.  Tangle Wire fits perfectly here.  The ability to turn"off" Drain is really it's strongest attribute in this metagme.

That's where we've been, but where are we going?  A metgame dominated by Slaver and with combo on the rise is ripe for the return of Fish to make a big splash once again (or maybe just a few top8s).  With the high likley hood that Fish will make a stong reappearnace, which makes the argument for Tangle Wires inclusion  even stronger.

Another argument for Wire is that it helps you when you fall behind.  One of the biggest weaknesses to Stax lists that chose Chalice over Wire was that when Tinker or Oath resolved you had very limited outs.  This is actually the main reason I don't like Steve's most recent list.

Anyway, just my thoughts.  Latley I've been tooling around with 5cBazaar Stax...without Wires.

Sean

   

[Mantis]

Very good point meadbert. I would like to add that Chang Stax would really hurt itself way too much when setting a Chalice @ 1. Not being able to use 2 of your tutors, ancestral, welders, shaman etc. is not a very good trade. Chalice in Uba Stax is much much stronger, but I really think Tangle Wire belongs in Stax regardless. Stax is just trying to buy time and all spells (besides bounce and artifact destruction) that would pose a threat to Stax are all at Sorcery speed (really, you could less about your opponent drawing a lot of cards when they can not cast them.) Buying time gives you time to set up a lock.

Tangle Wire is also very good versus Mana Drain/Remand whatever. In this respect Tangle Wire acts like a Xantid Swarm for the first few turns. The syngergy between Wire and Goblin Welder is just huge. Gorilla Shaman aint too shabby either when combined with Tangle Wire.

In my point of view Tangle Wire should be a 3 or 4 of in every Stax deck regardless. It should be a fundemental Staxpart just like Crucible, Smokestack and Trinisphere.

[zeus-online]

In which scenario exactly, is the opponent able to draw a shitload of cards, without being able to use them?....

/Zeus

[vroman]

tangle is not a great answer to oath, bc of APNAP stacking rules. they tap down for tangle, and then oath up their guy, untapped and swinging. tangle only taps down haste angels the turn after theyve hit for 6/ea atleast - subpar to say the least. beating oath requires one of: chalice @ 2; jester cap; smokestack pre-oath; granite shard + wastelands (preferably via crucible); active welder w bazaar + duplicant waiting (difficult). uba and tangle are less relevent and can be boarded out if slots are needed. the welder + duplicant plan is so rare to set up, that Ive found myself actually boarding duplicant out to make room for shards or extra jesters. against some oath builds, I bring in shattering spree also, just to deal w n-rod, p-needles, and chalices that shut off my answers.

re: chalice
who says chalice isnt powerful game 1 on the play? every deck plays moxen. even fish has evolved toward full moxen (wise move). dropping chalice for zero after deploying all my own free artifacts is the best part of winning the roll. chalice is probably the most efficient lock in the archetype, since its majorly unbalanced effect at ZERO mana.

against anything w drains or rituals, tangle is the most reassuring play, besides trinisphere. it stops lots of surprises that they might be able to sneak through uba or smoky, just by clearly stopping all the mana your currently aware of.

[Evenpence]

Moving Chalice of the Void to the SB in favor of Sphere of Resistances MD is not wrong for a few reasons:

1)  Chalice is not as powerful game 1 as you might not know what to set it at.  I'm echoing here.
2)  Decks are getting around Chalice as much as possible - it doesn't have surprise value AT ALL.  Multiple bounce is being run maindeck, which Sphere of Resistance and ITEOC really help with.
3)  Sphere of Resistance combos well with the rest of the deck - Chalice and Tangle Wire don't combo together, for instance.
4)  Chalices are much better on the play than on the draw, and you can choose if you want to side them back in and whatnot.
5)  Spheres + Wires actually do more to Drains (IMO) than Chalices + Wires, or Chalices + Spheres.

I probably won't be changing for a while, but those are all very legitimate reasons to cut Chalices for Spheres.  I've considered putting 4 Chalice in the board while having 4 Spheres MD, but I'm just not prepared to cut a card that has provided me multiple, multiple, multiple game wins over different archetypes.  I would never want anything other than Chalice against 5c Stax, for instance.

[frolll]

Talking about UbaStax, I've seen some recent lists running 3 Mask an 2-3 Teferi's Puzzle Box, in order to empty the hand of the opponent. Is this only a cute trick or could it be valuable and toyed in UbaStax?

I mean, against Drains, it's so strong.

[meadbert]

So, I continue to find that Ensnaring Bridge is my best bet against Oath.

(I have never tried either Jester's Cap or Granite Shard)

[PacmanXSA]

So, I continue to find that Ensnaring Bridge is my best bet against Oath.

(I have never tried either Jester's Cap or Granite Shard)

Having E.Bridge and R.Revelation sb pretty much wreck oath.  Ray has so much synergy with the deck and not only stops Oath, but erradicates multiple copies of the one card that continues to haunt me; Flux.  Flux is the biggest reason to fear blue. 

Anyways, back to bridge.  Bridge stops those annoying decks that use the attack phase.  I rolled fish with it the other deck as they dropped two mages naming Smoker and CoW and were beating this shit out of me.  The only reason I won?  Resolved Bridge with nothing in my hand... 

Pac

[Evenpence]

Talking about UbaStax, I've seen some recent lists running 3 Mask an 2-3 Teferi's Puzzle Box, in order to empty the hand of the opponent. Is this only a cute trick or could it be valuable and toyed in UbaStax?

I mean, against Drains, it's so strong.

To quote a famous Ubastax player, "Puzzle Box is ass."

Ensnaring Bridge is okay - I really don't put much time into the Oath matchup as it's dying out very quickly, and I need those SB slots to deal with Slaver and Combo.  Ensnaring Bridge is okay, but decks that it hurts usually have some amount of bounce.

[sean1i0]

So I don't see how Null Rod + Tanglewire is a problem.

You never have to tap more than 3 to Tanglewire.  If I have Rod + Tanglewire that is already two.  Since your Moxen are already dead to Null Rod anyway you can harmlessly tap those.

Null Rod + Wire is rather strong actually.

Basically, I just didn't say clearly what I meant; I agree with you, Null Rod + Wire is the shit.  What I was saying is that all of those lock components mixed together in one list are way too much; the reason I listed tangle wire in there is that if you mix in everything else, then even that can come back to bite you in the ass, although admittedly much less so than a combination of any other locks on that list.

[Evenpence]

So I don't see how Null Rod + Tanglewire is a problem.

You never have to tap more than 3 to Tanglewire.  If I have Rod + Tanglewire that is already two.  Since your Moxen are already dead to Null Rod anyway you can harmlessly tap those.

Null Rod + Wire is rather strong actually.

Basically, I just didn't say clearly what I meant; I agree with you, Null Rod + Wire is the shit.  What I was saying is that all of those lock components mixed together in one list are way too much; the reason I listed tangle wire in there is that if you mix in everything else, then even that can come back to bite you in the ass, although admittedly much less so than a combination of any other locks on that list.

Who is this quote by?  I don't think Null Rod + Wire is strong at all, because it doesn't hamper your opponent's ability to play moxen, therefore giving himself more permanents to tap, I.E., making Tangle Wire completely useless.

Sphere + Rod, or Tangle Wire + Anything is better in that example.  Sure, I'm tapping down my moxes, but so is my opponent.  The two do not add ANYTHING to one another.

[sean1i0]

Honestly I was super tired when I wrote that it was the shit and really was thinking about something else, as I realized about an hour after I wrote it right before falling asleep; it's about two notches below being the shit, since that level of awesomeness is reserved for Tangle + Smokestack and one notch below it is such things as Sphere + Tangle and Evenpence is right that they end up opposing each other.

[meadbert]

So I don't see how Null Rod + Tanglewire is a problem.

You never have to tap more than 3 to Tanglewire.  If I have Rod + Tanglewire that is already two.  Since your Moxen are already dead to Null Rod anyway you can harmlessly tap those.

Null Rod + Wire is rather strong actually.

Basically, I just didn't say clearly what I meant; I agree with you, Null Rod + Wire is the shit.  What I was saying is that all of those lock components mixed together in one list are way too much; the reason I listed tangle wire in there is that if you mix in everything else, then even that can come back to bite you in the ass, although admittedly much less so than a combination of any other locks on that list.

Who is this quote by?  I don't think Null Rod + Wire is strong at all, because it doesn't hamper your opponent's ability to play moxen, therefore giving himself more permanents to tap, I.E., making Tangle Wire completely useless.

Sphere + Rod, or Tangle Wire + Anything is better in that example.  Sure, I'm tapping down my moxes, but so is my opponent.  The two do not add ANYTHING to one another.

Null Rod makes Tangle Wire's effect significantly weaker for all involved.  Still I have the Tangle Wire + Null Rod out so I am tapping 1 relevant permanent once.  My opponent still has to tap 4 permanents during his upkeep so even if he has two Moxen in play, there are still 2 relevant permanents that must be tapped the first turn and 1 relevant permanent the second turn.

They do add to each other to a degree, because Tangle Wire taps out my opponet (ideally) while Null Rod negates the threat of a Black Lotus or other Artifact accelerants.

I would still rather have the other locks you mentioned.

[Pitlord]

I play 5c stax, and I only played tangle wire for a short time. They were the first thing I changed out of the mainboard for chalices. Tangle wire has some powerful synergies, but cannot acutally turn off your opponent all the time. IF you have welder and tangle wire, wouldn't you rather weld in stack to make them sac stuff while you don't have to? Stalling is good, but it will only get you so far.

Chalice, however, affects game state heavily. Setting chalice at 0 or @2 are the best plays for 5c, depending on the match. Chalice @2 stops drains and oath from being played, as well as shutting off lots of spells and tutors in drain and oath decks.

I also play with either 3 or 4 mainboard 1spheres, depending on amount of combo expected. Sphere is great agaisnt combo, and don't let someone tell you otherwise. If you play a tangle wire on the draw, congratualtions, you have shut off approxiamatly 2 mana of theirs. If you drop a chalice @1, you have just killed half their pile. If you drop a 1sphere, you ahve just smashed their whole gameplan. Spheres also stack, which is a huge deal, literally making everyhting in a storm deck uncastable with multiples out.

[Evenpence]

I play 5c stax, and I only played tangle wire for a short time. They were the first thing I changed out of the mainboard for chalices. Tangle wire has some powerful synergies, but cannot acutally turn off your opponent all the time. IF you have welder and tangle wire, wouldn't you rather weld in stack to make them sac stuff while you don't have to? Stalling is good, but it will only get you so far.

This argument doesn't make much sense to me.  Smokestack is a 4-of in any Stax deck regardless of whether you're playing Chalice or Wire.  I would think that I'd weld in a Stax over Chalice anyway.  But even using your example, Wire is a better card for what you're talking about (very much so actually) than Chalice.  If you weld Chalice in, it can only have 0 counters on it, and has virtually no effect on the gamestate unless you REALLY need that Chalice at 0 (which is rare).  However, welding Wire in produces maximum effectiveness of the card.

Chalice, however, affects game state heavily. Setting chalice at 0 or @2 are the best plays for 5c, depending on the match. Chalice @2 stops drains and oath from being played, as well as shutting off lots of spells and tutors in drain and oath decks.

I play Ubastax, which is primarily what deck the discussion is based on - and I play with both Chalice and Wire, which have very good synergy together (particularly Chalice set at 0 or 1).  I don't think it has to be an either or in this case.  Wire also affects the board heavily.  As for Chalice @ 2 stopping drains:

Chalice @ 2 costs 4 mana.  Tangle Wire costs 3.  This makes Tangle Wire better at takingout drains, because it comes down earlier.
Chalice @ 2 makes you lose your ability to play some cards in your deck, especially if you're playing 5c Stax.  Tangle Wire does not.
Chalice @ 2 makes you lose that Chalice for another number, just because you're worried about drains and you want some measure of uncounterability.  Tangle Wire does not.
Chalice @ 2, if destroyed, ceases to be Chalice @ 2 for the rest of the game, unless you somehow get it bounced back to your hand.  Tangle Wire does not.
Chalice @ 2 is not synergistic with other cards in the deck - it's actually dyssynergistic.  Tangle Wire, on the other hand, is very synergistic.
Chalice @ 2 does not stop rebuild - Tangle Wire DOES, because they still have to tap down after they rebuild.  They need a ton of moxes in play/hand, or they need to have enough mana to cast it during your EOT.

I also play with either 3 or 4 mainboard 1spheres, depending on amount of combo expected. Sphere is great agaisnt combo, and don't let someone tell you otherwise.

I've been saying this for a while.  Sphere is almost always better against Combo than Wire.

If you play a tangle wire on the draw, congratualtions, you have shut off approxiamatly 2 mana of theirs. If you drop a chalice @1, you have just killed half their pile.

Again, the deck in question here is Ubastax - usually every build runs absolutely 4 Chalices.  I don't know if anyone on this thread is advocating that we run Tangle Wire over Chalice of the Void.  However, Roland Chang (you know, the world champion and TMD proclaimed best player of 5c Stax with arguments for Kevin Cron?) would probably disagree with you that Chalice is better MD.

If you drop a 1sphere, you ahve just smashed their whole gameplan. Spheres also stack, which is a huge deal, literally making everyhting in a storm deck uncastable with multiples out.

Okay, this is a fine argument, one I've already made in my first post, actually.  Sphere over Wire is a valid argument, especially when talking about combo, and sometimes (although not usually) about control.

I get the feeling like you haven't read the thread.

[vroman]

ubastax's greatest enemies:
goblin welder
island
rebuild/hurkyl
dark confidant

tanglewire deals with island effectively. tangle makes mass-bounce much trickier to pull of. tangle gives opportunity (against non-expert players) to wasteland on tapped fetches, costing them permanent advantage, and keeping basics off the table. tangle tap down method of neutralizing basic islands makes me consider further tech such as:

4 wshop
4 waste
1 strip
1 academy
9 artifact mana
3 mtn
2 rishadan port
2 barbarian ring
2 solemn
2 granite shard (serrated arrows, if 5 red mana too unreliable)
0 monkey
X rest of deck

or possibly instead of cutting red mana/spells, cut 2+ lock slots for R-ports; justifiable as mana denial, in addition to mana production. or do both and run 4 Rports if they prove good enough. all these ideas untested. standard ubastax runs 26 mana. 5Cstax runs 28. yet uba can bazaar to efficiently cycle excess mana. Rports is definitely plausible.
the question is whether ubastax can afford to spend 2 non-shop mana /turn, to effectively set enemy back one basic land drop.