Napster 2K6 (NeoSui)

[Ben Kossman]

In reading the various critiques of Sui Black on these forums I couldn't help but wonder if the deck is in fact as horrible as it's made out to be or if the old builds that relied on randomn discard and horrible creature like Flesh Reaver were simply outdated. A mono-Black Fish build got a bit of attention recently and struck me as quite a good deck in the hands
of a competent player. My main interest in Mono-Black lies in the fact that Dark Ritual makes the deck capable of early busteddness that other budget decks simply don't have available to them. The final piece of the puzzle that convinced me that Sui could make a comeback came in the form of the insanely overpriced (In $)Pithing Needle. This gives the deck the ability to stop Necro, Bargain, Bazaar, and the deck's nemesis Goblin Welder all cards that made Sui obsolete in previous years. Add in Dark Confidant and the ability to run silver bullets for specific problem matchups (Specifically Oath) and the deck really presents itsself as a realistic force in the Vintage metagame...

Artifact:10
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod
4 Pithing Needle
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet

Black:30
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Nantuko Shade
3 Withered Wretch
4 Bob
3 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Chainer's Edict (Anti-Oath tech)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Land:20
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
15 Swamp

So I rearranged things to make the deck as versatile as possible while still retaining the ability to kick bitches teeth in with a turn one Negator. The deck's worst matchup in my mind should be either Stax because it's just better than Sui or Oath which plays with stupid ass enchantments (I don't know who came up with those things but I'm pretty sure it was the same asshole that made Jitte). Combo is a good matchup as it's always been as is Mana Drain.dec. The best way to deal with Oath would be to run MD Chainer's Edict which combined with Jitte makes Aggro winnable as well. I'm not running darkblast because it's shit (Nothing scares a Gifts player more than a Darkblast in the yard That's right pal, that collosuss
is only dealing ten this turn. Whatcha gonna do, bitch?)

Sideboard
3 Leyline of the Void (Vs. ID)
3 Umezawa's Jitte (Vs. Id, Aggro, anybody that talks to much smack game one)
3 Null Rod (Vs. Your mom)
3 Chainer's Edict (Vs. Oath)
1 Withered Wretch (Ichorid, Stax, Gifts)
1 Mind Twist (Vs. Mana Drain.dec)
1 Necropotence (Ditto)

So It's a badass deck, I can afford to build most of it and proxy the Pithing Needles. Thoughts? Comments? Insults? Tech?
Thanks in advance for responding in a thoughtful fashion.

[vartemis]

I have actually been trying a "black fish" build, and have been trying out the new avatar of discord instead of the negator.  Sure you have to discard 2 cards, but you will likely end up losing more than 2 permanents with negator.  Toss in some flashback stuff like therapys and its not that bad.

j

[policehq]

When are you going to flashback Chainer's Edict? Oath creatures have haste, and thus Diabolic Edict, being an instant, is strictly superior.

-hq

[zeus-online]

Why in the world would anyone run Avatar of discord? And since when does negator get overwhelmed by lightning bolts? This is Type 1, nobody plays with lightning bolts & Burn spells, save maybe a single fire/ice. Seriosly, i cant see it as better then negator...

Your numbers seems odd to me?
Why are you running 4 needles? And only 1 null rod? and the random chalice? either 4 chalice or none, and null rod should be a 3-4 off...not 1 randomly stuck in.....

Necropotence is a house, i'd maindeck it anyday, in any deck with rituals....Also, you're in for a big surprise if you SB mind twist in against drain decks....it does nothing against them....especially those gifts decks with MD misdirection


/Zeus

[Harlequin]

I agree, you need to clean up your list and get some consistancy working in your favor.  you need to decide why and when you need each of those 1-ofs at the top of your list.  And rework the deck so your running restricted cards, 3 ofs, and 4 ofs.   

[Yare]

How is Chainer's Edict an answer to an Oath'd up Colossus?

[ELD]

Is this a joke thread?

[vartemis]

Why in the world would anyone run Avatar of discord? And since when does negator get overwhelmed by lightning bolts? This is Type 1, nobody plays with lightning bolts & Burn spells, save maybe a single fire/ice. Seriosly, i cant see it as better then negator...

First, this was in vintage improvement, and nowhere did i say the deck was teir 1.  My problem was against fish and man lands when i was playing my deck.  Blocking a negator with a mishras still causes you to loose 2 or 3 (if no null rod down) permanents.  I like him better vs other aggro type decks, and i believe that was the type of deck he was going for. 

Ben, do a search for "black fish" and you should get a thread about 6 or 7 pages long on it.  it will give you somewhere to start.

j

[zeus-online]

Unless im entirely mistaken, you are running wastelands...which if again, im not mistaken, does kill man-lands

Also, why would you attack into a mishra's factory? Its not like fish suddenly explodes with a combo or something....you might aswell just wait a round or two, to see if things are improving.....you realize that you dont HAVE to attack with negator...just wait a little, maybe you'll get some useless permanents...fine..then attack....maybe you'll get something good, which would obviosly be, good

/Zeus

[Ben Kossman]

The reason I'm running 1 of's is because I also have a full set of lowcc tutors. The reason I'm not running Necro is because I have 4 Dark Confidant though it's an amazing card and I wouldn't argue with someone that uses it. The reason I'm running Chainer's Edict is because of the Flashback which is more relevant than you'd think late game. I'm not sure about the avatar of discord, he's kinda cool but Negator is just the shit so they're going to have to print something pretty amazing to replace him.

Is this a joke thread?

No.

[Hillboy]

Legacy Neosui runs white too. That way you get swords and disenchant to deal with stuff that black typically has trouble with.

One thing that seems odd to me is 4 needle, 1 null rod, 1 chalice, and 1 crucible of worlds.

Even with the tutors I think it might be nice to standardize, in a deck designed to disrupt i think its better to have consistency instead of brokeness, tutoring for that 1 chalice may help in some situations but having that 1 more duress instead to strip away an oath before it hits the board might be better.

For a while there was a sui black deck that ran 4 chalice as a means to deal with moxes. I'd run 4 but thats just me.

Sui black is ok it randomly hits a meta by surprise and does ok and this build is pretty good especially compared to some I've seen lately.

[Ben Kossman]

That's cool but I want the deck to be completely immune to Wasteland. A couple of other ideas I'm considering are 1 MD
Planar Void and/or 1 Tendrils. Another option is 1 MD Death Wish to fetch extra hate as needed from the Board. This deck is ridiculously versatile BECAUSE IT HAS A FULL SET OF TUTORS GODDAMMIT. It also has the Graveyard hate to punish the current metagame, specifically Ichorid.

[Harlequin]

I only count 3 + Consultation.  But Consulting for a one of is risky business... If the card you want is within the first or last 6 cards your basically going to loose.  If you're consulting for a 1-of in a 50 card deck (assume thats whats left after opening hand etc, you have aproximately a 1/4 chance of loosing because the card is too shallow or too deep in your deck).
I think consistancy is better than 3-4 tutors a whole pile of one-ofs.

[zeus-online]

I've played suicide a bit, and generally all the tutors sux in suicide....they just slow you down, to find stuff, you should have played more of! Demonic consultation did prove usefull once in a while....but the other ones just plain sucked. you dont want card disadvantage, and paying 1B to find a card, is like giving the opponent a free Time walk!

You could try something like this:

Mana: (26)
8 Fetch
5 Strips
7 Swamp
4 Dark ritual
1 Mox jet
1 Black lotus

Critters: (15)
4 Carnophage - The Weakest Link...just wanted a bear, and i need food for the hungry therapies!
4 Dark confidant
4 Withered wretch
3 Phyrexian negator

Disruption: (16)
4 Duress
3 Cabal therapy
2 Hymn to tourach  - Well i dont really like hymn too much....but it does slow the opponent down...they suck against decls with misdirection though.
4 Sinkhole  - To hit those basic lands everyone thinks is safe
3 Null rod

Other: (3)
1 Necropotence - Must. Add.....its insane! in any deck!
2 Diabolic edict - Mostly just for hitting DSC...welders arent really much of a problem with 4 wretch's...just keep 1 mana open, it aint hard

The deck probably isnt optimal, though.

/Zeus

[policehq]

Chainer's Edict's flashback does not compare to taking a hit for 6 and giving your opponent a draw step after putting Akroma/Razia/SotN into play during their upkeep.

Tutors in aggro decks are absolutely terrible. When you find what you need to answer, it is way too late in the game to tutor for the answer, wait a turn, and play it. After your opponent plays 2 Moxen, are you going to cast Demonic Consultation for 1 Chalice of the Void? If so, how many counters will you add? Is it worth the risk? I don't believe you've even played this deck.

This is my last reply to this decklist. Everyone is wasting their time because:

This deck is ridiculously versatile ... GODDAMMIT

Does not indicate that you are looking for help. Your deck sucks and would lose to good Type 2 and Extended decks.

Versatility means having answers readily available and able to compete against different decks. You haven't described your game-plan against any decks except a sideboard that is completely full of cards that should be in the maindeck (just not together, in the case of Jittes + Null Rods). You plan on siding in Jittes because people talk smack?? Is that because you are more confident that you will win with them to shut them up?? Isn't that a better thing to do game 1?

-hq

[kirdape3]

I actually ran a Suicide deck at Richmond both days, going a combined 3-4.  One of those losses was to Workshop aggro when he went off with Metalworker turn 1, another to a teammate with Ichorid, a third to GrimLong, and the fourth to Becker with IT when I successfully handed him two games.  The deck is less awful than you'd think, but the 'immunity to Wasteland' issue denies you cards that you basically have to have to function.

4 Carnophage
4 Sarcomancy
4 Withered Wretch
4 Dark Confidant
3 Kataki, War's Wage

4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Null Rod
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor

3 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp

Sideboard:

4 Leyline of the Void
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Serenity
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod

[Hillboy]

Are you going to proxy the imperial seal? last time I checked those bad boys were around $100.

What does being immune to wasteland do for you? other than giving you a slightly less terrible game against stax and maybe a better game versus fish.

Of course for budget reasons I totally get playing swamps. They'r 5 cents apiece :lol: whereas scrublands are $20 or so.

[Ben Kossman]

Being able to avoid being Wastelocked is priceless considering how godawful a matchup Stax is. I cut out two pithing
Needles for more Swamps as 15 wasn't quite enough. Maybe I should clarify a bit. This is actually more controllish than the traditional Sui. It's based off decks I saw on Morphling.de that top 8'd in Europe and the John Finkel/Mike Flores Napster
control that won a world championship a few years back. It revolves around silver bullets w/Vampiric Tutor to fetch them.
This deck revolves around equally efficient tutors and Silver bullets for problem matchups hence Diabolic Edict for Oath,
Null Rod versus fully powered decks, Crucible/Wasteland to establish a lock of my own, and Jitte to deal with Aggro. I would probably cut Null Rod before Jitte but their both so good I really feel like it's worth a bit of friction between the two.
If I need Jitte that bad I can always just not play the Null Rod. The thing is that both card are good versus Slaver so they shore up another tough matchup. 

[Hillboy]

That's all right.

I suppose if it suits your playstyle than roll with it. I'm more of a redundancy fan because I'm not very good at using tutors unless I'm trying to combo off.

Granted I'm a horrible player therefore I like to build decks that after turn one go into autopilot mode.

[god_of_war]

you can actually reach 7 mana in the game to flashback a chainer's edict? granted you can ritual into it but wouldn't you want to ritual into something pro-active lets say a negator or disruption rather than a reactive card?

running one-ofs in a deck that's supposed to have a constant flow of men and disruption can and will muck-up your tempo.

what is your metagame by the way? im curious to know because sui black is metagame depedent deck

[Ben Kossman]

So some ideas I've gotten from this thread are as follows. 1 Tendrils, 1 Planar Void, More swamps, Diabolic Edict instead of Chainer's, 1 Braids.

[doomhed]

So some ideas I've gotten from this thread are as follows. 1 Tendrils, 1 Planar Void, More swamps, Diabolic Edict instead of Chainer's, 1 Braids.

and they are all bad ideas. this archetype will always be championed by ppl who love monoblack, but it will never be competitive. it barely was when keeper was dominant. OSE and rOSE put the nails in the coffin of sui by doing thier job better and still beating it.

let the dead stay dead.

[kirdape3]

On the contrary.  The only major archetype you're really weak to is Storm combo - even then you have Duress, Therapy, Chalice of the Void, Null Rod, and Withered Wretch in the first game as truly relevant disruption.  You can handle Workshops if you splash a color (White is most likely, although Green gives you Oxidize, Uktabi Orangutan, and Pernicious Deed and Red gives you Shattering Spree, Rack and Ruin, Gorilla Shaman, and Viashino Heretic), you are favored against Drains, and other non-Ichorid aggro matchups are well in your favor.

Obsolete versions of Monoblack need not apply.

[3eowulf]

Just played monoblack and placed 4th losing only to Goblins in top8, here's the list:

// Lands
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    14  Swamp
    2  Bloodstained Mire

// Creatures
    4  Hypnotic Specter
    3  Withered Wretch
    4  Phyrexian Negator

// Spells
    4  Chalice of the Void
    4  Dark Ritual
    4  Duress
    3  Infernal Contract
    4  Sinkhole
    4  Diabolic Edict
    1  Demonic Consultation
    4  Hymn to Tourach (1)

// Sideboard
SB: 4  Engineered Plague
SB: 2  Eradicate
SB: 1  Planar Void
SB: 2  Nevinyrral's Disk
SB: 1  Consume Spirit
SB: 1  Darkblast
SB: 1  Cranial Extraction
SB: 1  Demonic Tutor
SB: 1  Vampiric Tutor
SB: 1  Dread of Night

If anyone might find it useful i can make a card-by-card analysis

[Fred The Ev]

NO! NOT ANOTHER BEN KOSSMAN! NOBODY ELSE POST! LET IT DIIIIIIEEEEE!

[NWI Team_Zilla]

Just played monoblack and placed 4th losing only to Goblins in top8, here's the list:

If Goblins made it into the top 4, I shall laugh at you and wonder why the vintage community will find your list relavent.

I played Sui Black about 2-3 years ago when Keeper was the dominate deck.  There is no doubt that a properly built Sui black deck will own Keeper, however, Keeper is no longer dominate, nor is it anywhere within the metagame.  For this reason we have to figure out what Sui black is good at doing, bad at doing, and what can be done to improve it.

Here is the list I played way back then(i think, its a little fuzzy), just for reference:

4 Sarcomancy
4 Carnophage
4 Nantuko Shade
4 Hypnotic Spectre
3 Phyrexian Negator

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Torach
1 Necropotence
3 Null Rod
3 Diabolic Edict

4 Dark Ritual
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
10 (Assortment od snow-covered and normal) Swamp

Once again, the list is still really fuzzy, and it is only up there to show that sui black put down as many creatures as they could as quickly as possible either before or after destroying and opponent's hand.  This deck had two strategies to contoling the board, hand disruption and mana disruption, both or which worked with great effectiveness.  And the 2 things that quite possibly made this deck work more than anything else is consistantsy and almost no mana issues.

Since I stopped playing Sui Black, many things have been printed that just belong in this unfortunatly dead deck.  Some of you have allready named some of these cards, but I'll list as many as I know with out adding another color:

Chalice of the Void, Leyline of the Void, Dark Confidant, Withered Wretch, Darkblast, Fetch lands, Shadow of a Doubt, Pithing Needle, and I'm probably missing some others.

Dark Confidant is probably the highlight of recent sets giving both a 2/1 critter for 2 and an extra card per turn.

I assembled a list to be more reactive to nut draws rather than being proactive and just ignoring most of it.

Dark Potency:

4 Dark Confidant
4 Withered Wretch
3 Phyrexian Negator
3 Kataki, War's Edge

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Torach
2 Null Rod
4 Chalice of the Void
1 Necropotence
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vamperic Tutor
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Disempower

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
4 Dark Ritual
4 Swamp
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal


The bolded are cards I added so I didn't get run over by Tinker/DSC and Oath.  So technicly it isnt sui black anymore.   This is just a sample list that I put together to maximize new cards releases as well as keep the most presure on my opponent as possible.  Stax and Combo are the two matches which scare me the most so which is probably best in the splash color as well.  

P.S. I agree with Fred, let it die.

[Ben Kossman]

Just played monoblack and placed 4th losing only to Goblins in top8, here's the list:

Congratulations. How big was the tourney and what other decks were in the top 8? Also, why Infernal Contract over Confidant? It seems like you went with the silver bullet strategy out of the sideboard, interesting.

NO! NOT ANOTHER BEN KOSSMAN! NOBODY ELSE POST! LET IT DIIIIIIEEEEE!

You really should know better by now.

P.S. I agree with Fred, let it die.

No. Have a nice day.