Simic Sky Swollower vs Irredecent Angel in Oath

[Draven]

I have been thinking of this card in Oath for sometime, but was waiting for someone else to post a thread on it, however, it has not yet been done. So I will. First of all, I am not going to try and argue about removing Akroma, Spirit or Razia. They all have their advantages as well as Simic Sky Swollower, however, it seems Simic Sky Swollower does everything the Irredecent Angel does, only better.

For those who may not know what the card is, here it is:

Name: Simic Sky Swallower
Set & Rarity:  Dissension rare
 
Printings:   
Cost:  {G}{U}
Card Type: Creature — Leviathan
P/T: 6/6
Rules Text (Oracle): Flying, trample
Simic Sky Swallower can’t be the target of spells or abilities.

VERSE

Name: Iridescent Angel
Set & Rarity:  Odyssey rare
 
Printings:   
Cost:   {W}{U}
Card Type: Creature — Angel
P/T: 4/4
Rules Text (Oracle): Flying, protection from all colors

The mechanical difference comes from Protectiong from all colors and Can not be the target of spells or abilities. Obviously, they both prevent Swords and Bounce spells etc. The benifit of the Protection from all colors comes in not being blocked, by the only creatures that would be blocking would be Akroma or Razia, and the Irredecent Angel is losing that race anyhow.

What do you gain running the Sky Swollower over the Irredencent Angel? Power, +2 to be exact. The +2 power cuts your kill time from 5 turns to three, a significant difference. You also gain the Trample, which may or may not come into play.

Is the +2 Power worth losing the ability to not be blocked? I think it is. What are your thoughts?

[Harlequin]

I really like this guy.  Much better than Irridecent and possibly pristene angel.  I usually run both of the "Pro-Angels" in the board.  So I have 3 Anti-Hate creature slots in the board... and I have 4 Creatures to potentiall fill those slots


#1 - Attacking and blocking in the same turn:
Pristene - Can
Irridecent - Can not
Sky Swallower - Can not
Ancent Hydra - Can not - but he can mow down attackers while tapped.

#2 - Duplicant?
Sky Swallower - Always avoids it
Pristene - Can usually avoid it
Ancient Hydra - Can Harikari his way around it, and usually take welder with him
Irridecent - Dupped

#3 - Double Barbarian Ring
Sky Swallower - Always Avoids it, even a tripple ring can't touch him
Pristene - pwned
Irridecent - pwned
Ancient Hydra - gets offed by even 1, but takes welders with him.

#4 - Colored Targeted Hate
Sky Swallower - Avoids everything
Irridecent - Avoids everything
Pristene - usually can avoid it, but needs good cards in hand to do so.
Ancient Hydra - Again he can opt to go into the yard instead of having the "bad" effect for .

Conclusion:
Slot 1 - Sky Swallower - totally replaces Irridecent.  He even Hardcasts for the same Commitment.  1 off color, 1 blue and 5.  very hardcastable (I run drain).
Slot 2 - Pristene - A staple versus Fish, and usually welder decks (esp when I need 5 creatures in the deck to fight the Cap).
Slot 3 - Ancient Hydra - Hes just too good to pass up.  I <3 Ancient Hydra... wood ripper and Triskellion are for the loss.

 

[scutakicker]

I can't believe this is even a debate. Its as if a bunch of us Oath players infiltrated R&D to get the perfect sideboard card. A 6/6 untargettable that's in the deck's primary colors so it can actually be hardcast if need be? As Ben Carp said jokingly last night: "Well, this isn't quite as good for Oath as Forbidden Orchard was, but its prett damn close." The hate that people have or board against the creatures is Swords, Maze of Ith, Stormscape Apprentice, Duplicant and the like. This avoids all that and keeps them on a tight clock. Are you really worried about this guy getting blocked? By what--a Xantid Swarm? Then they lose their swarm and still take 5 in trample, more than anything else would have done to them. Every Oath deck will be boarding one of these.

[Hillboy]

The only advantage iridescent has is with wrath of god type effects. So if I were to vote the Simic fellow would be mine for practicality.

Edit: my bad angel still dies to wrath

[Mr. Nightmare]

Why only one?  He isn't Legendary, and there's no threat of Echoing Truth.  Wouldn't this basically replace both Angels in the Board?

[Dante]

The only advantage iridescent has is with wrath of god type effects. So if I were to vote the Simic fellow would be mine for practicality.

Iridescent Angel in no way has any protection from Wrath of God effects - those effects don't target or cause damage, so they would kill the angel.

Q: How can you destroy Iridescent Angel if she has protection from all colors?

A: The only way is to use global effects like Wrath of God, or things like Chainer's Edict that cause players to sacrifice creatures, or the very rare colorless effects from artifacts like Cursed Scroll or Sandstone Deadfall.

[Moxlotus]

I would ask why bother playing any Pro Angel at all?  You should have Trike or Hydra for the Slaver match which will double as removal for a Bouncer or Apprentice. 

[Harlequin]

Why only one?  He isn't Legendary, and there's no threat of Echoing Truth.  Wouldn't this basically replace both Angels in the Board?

I'm not ready to give up on Pristene Yet.  I think he is one of the best cards the deck has to offer.  I think even though the clock is slower, he is highly valuable for blocking goblins, Juggernaughts and other such aggro.  I run/ran a more control oriented oath so sometimes beats are be a problem.  He CLEARLY, replaces Irridecent though.

I can't believe this is even a debate. Its as if a bunch of us Oath players infiltrated R&D to get the perfect sideboard card. A 6/6 untargettable that's in the deck's primary colors so it can actually be hardcast if need be?

As a total Aside, If I could get in there I would totally make a card that had a conveter mana cost of 2 (so I could Muddle for it) that had a converted mana cost of 3 on the stack, that removed a Chalice at 2.  Illusion // Realitiy!! You were SO close.  I vote we get Illusion Errataed to be !  I would settle for a {U}{U} card too.

[Moriarty]

As a total Aside, If I could get in there I would totally make a card that had a conveter mana cost of 2 (so I could Muddle for it) that had a converted mana cost of 3 on the stack, that removed a Chalice at 2.  Illusion // Realitiy!! You were SO close.  I vote we get Illusion Errataed to be !  I would settle for a {U}{U} card too.

Reshape into Engineered Explosives?

On topic: yeah the blue/green monster is made for Oath.
EDIT: But why limit this to a discussion about a single sideboard slot in a deck that has been on the decline for a while? That seems unimaginative. This win condition is blue, untargetable, hardcastable, and non-Legendary.
Why not run 4 of these as the only creature in a more controllish version of Oath?

[klu]

Happily, American people never saw the tidesprout tyrant instead of akroma and razia
Once one of your TMD god will post an article on it, we will see only oath to play on MWS.
Simic is really good but not any 1% as good as tidesprout tyrant is..

[zeus-online]

Tidesprout still dies to all the currently played oath-hate...cant see why he should be any better then akroma/razia?

/Zeus

[Mark_Story]

tidespout seems like he'd be a lot stronger in the mirror, rather than the hate match ups.  Where I think the sky swallowers beat down ability is just house.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Tidespout Tyrant is crap in every way. First of all, in 90% of situations you are going to win when you're activating Oath. In the other 10% such as when they have a Swords to Plowshares, he is just as bad as anything else.

As for Simic Sky Swallower, he is strictly better than Iridescent Angel, a card no one should still be playing for any reason, and testing has shown him almost universally better than Pristine Angel. For those of you still sideboarding a protection angel, SSS is simply the superior selection for so many situations that simple sense says that he is the sauciest solution.

[klu]

Tidesprout still dies to all the currently played oath-hate...cant see why he should be any better then akroma/razia?

/Zeus

I don't wanna give all the information i already have because i think people should use their brain a bit instead of waiting for others to give them detailed arguments for using it.
Just to say that i would NEVER play razia or akroma anymore while i can play this...

Edit : No it doesn't die to all the hate : just think about that already huge brainstorm

[UR]

You are the one claiming it is so great. I don't really see any huge benefits unless you can play like 5 spells and bouce all his permanents. So I think it is your job to convince the people here...

[klu]

well, killing the turn it comes into play, do not have to care of anything stax could be playing (but cap), being blue.. : that does not only mean it won't be as bad as akroma in hand because you can trash it to fow and you can play it easily from hand without the help of the lotus..

i think there is about a few % of games where you will miss akroma

I'll stop there, it's not tyrant topic.

[Khahan]

well, killing the turn it comes into play, do not have to care of anything stax could be playing (but cap), being blue.. : that does not only mean it won't be as bad as akroma in hand because you can trash it to fow and you can play it easily from hand without the help of the lotus..

i think there is about a few % of games where you will miss akroma

I'll stop there, it's not tyrant topic.

It costs 7. There is nothing 'easy' about it. You simply don't have the colored mana issues that the angels have when you play simic skyswallower. Given, that is not as difficult as the angels, but its still not easy to pull off. Drain mana will help.

[Tha Gunslinga]

I would ask why bother playing any Pro Angel at all?  You should have Trike or Hydra for the Slaver match which will double as removal for a Bouncer or Apprentice. 

The Slaver matchup is already like 80-20; I don't think we need anything MORE against it.

Iridescent Angel sees no play in decent Oath decks, because it sucks.  Pristine is currently the correct call, because it not only cannot be Duplicanted, but it can attack AND block.  Pristine will be phased out for Simic Sky Swallower.


Oh, and can you people at least TRY to spell correctly?  Irredecent?  Swollower?  I'm in PAIN here.

[scutakicker]

While we're at it let's run Blazing Archon and Nullstone Gargoyle and Djinn Illuminatus. And how about Magnivore and Dragon Tyrant too? The vast majority of the time Oath activation says I WIN. When it doesn't its for one of two reasons. First, they can hate on the angels--Duplicant, Karakas, Swords, Maze, Apprentice etc hurt. ALL of these are stopped by Sky Swallower. Second, they can combo out before you win. You Oath and attack for 6, they Tendrils you for 30, they win. Thus, you want to win as quickly as possible. Oathing up creatures that aren't hasted (or even worse are unhasted 4/4s) gives them extra turns to Tendrils/Slaver lock/Smokestack away your board.

[Gekoratel]

I have a question about protection angels (now including Simic Sky Swallower) in general.  Are people still running these guys in the board because I thought that Tinker/DSC and Trike was now the accepted game plan against Fish decks?  I know that I haven't run the pro angels since SCG: Richmond 2005.  Other then the Fish matchup, when else is it relevant that your creatures cannot be targeted.  Against 5c Stax you would still leave in Razia and Akroma because they are the fastest clock, random aggro is a joke for Oath, so all that leaves is Fish.

[Harlequin]

While we're at it let's run Blazing Archon and Nullstone Gargoyle and Djinn Illuminatus. And how about Magnivore and Dragon Tyrant too? The vast majority of the time Oath activation says I WIN. When it doesn't its for one of two reasons. First, they can hate on the angels--Duplicant, Karakas, Swords, Maze, Apprentice etc hurt. ALL of these are stopped by Sky Swallower. Second, they can combo out before you win. You Oath and attack for 6, they Tendrils you for 30, they win. Thus, you want to win as quickly as possible. Oathing up creatures that aren't hasted (or even worse are unhasted 4/4s) gives them extra turns to Tendrils/Slaver lock/Smokestack away your board.

I'm not sure what your point is.  No one is really saying that they will not run the 6/x haste vigilance angels.  Its about the "options" creatures that oath runs in the sideboard.  Against Shop, fish, and aggro I want 5 creatures in my deck, and i want 3 of them to be able to avoid common targeted removal.  So maindeck archangles, and as I've stated above, my optional creature sideboard is Pristine, swollower, and ancient hydra.  That stops all the threats I preceive as needing to be answered.

As for the Tidespout guy, I don't really see him being that good in the mirror.  I mean, I used to run Devowering Sostruse and Hoverguard Sweeper in my sideboard.... until I realised that very very very rarely will -both- oath players ever get creatures in play.  If you need something for the mirror, a creature is not the answer.  You need something like Spawning pit...( or proteus staff / Polymorph?).

@ Gekoratel : Any Agro match running null rod, and any ubamask deck running null rod and duplicants.  I have never prefered Trike over ancient hydra.

[Draven]

Happily, American people never saw the tidesprout tyrant instead of akroma and razia
Once one of your TMD god will post an article on it, we will see only oath to play on MWS.
Simic is really good but not any 1% as good as tidesprout tyrant is..

The thing about Oath is, you want to play 1 spell (Oath of Druid) and protect the hell out of it for 2-3 turns. You don't want to Oath and then play a bunch of Brainstroms and such just to bounce permies.

The SSS lets you protect your creature even more because now you don't have to even worry about countering STP, bounce etc. Once this guy hits, there are very few ways for an oppoant to get rid of him.

One more thing the untargetable ability protects from is Maze of Ith, not a terribly common card, however, still annoying.

I didn't bring it up at first due to the fear of getting lynched, however, now I would like to bring it up...

Is there a version of Oath that would run a core of the SSS over hasted, vigilanties? I think there is. I am not going to spit out a deck list, but a deck with these guys as the main creatures would be slower (lack of haste), but much more resilient.

My thought is a Hate/Oath deck. If the deck isn't as worried about protecting the creatures so much, it can afford to slow down a trite and spend some resources on hating other decks. Thoughts?

[Law]

I could see that happening Draven. Maby a U/G one that focuses of control more as well? But time will tell if it will trully work.

[Mark_Story]

Is haste really a problem?  I know that oath wants to prevent the opponent from getting any chance to remove its beaters.  I would think that the swallower's unhateable nature makes up for the lack of haste. 

If haste really is the deal breaker for the swallower, couldn't dragon's breath be used?  It does weaken the deck a fair bit, but gives the swallower haste (I think, as it doesn't target).  I don't think that the akroma/razia should be removed from the maindeck, as they are still the fastest win condition that oath can run.  However, a pair or triplet of simic beasts is the most resiliant and hate proof.

[Tha Gunslinga]

Haste and Vigilance win games far more often and untargetability (and limited hardcastability) would.

[Draven]

Is haste really a problem?  I know that oath wants to prevent the opponent from getting any chance to remove its beaters.  I would think that the swallower's unhateable nature makes up for the lack of haste. 

That was what i was trying to say, byut you said it way better...

Haste and Vigilance win games far more often and untargetability (and limited hardcastability) would.

For everygame Vigilance is useful, there are 2-3 that it is irrelevant. Fish isn't going to race Oath, sorry, just not going to happen. Expecially if their StP's and Bounce don't work...

[scutakicker]

@ Harlequin-- My point is that there's no point in running Pristine. You either want the biggest hasted beaters you can or (post-board when they bring in their hate) the biggest totally untouchable beaters you can.

The number of decks packing maindeck hate is not large enough to justify untargetability over haste/vigilance. If you lose after Oathing its most likely because they managed to ramp up Smokestack in time or topdecked a tutor and went crazy on you--why give them another turn? Just win. Then they board in hate and you board in Swallower. GG. The only maindeck hate you need to worry about is UW Fish. That's why you side in Tinker/DSC, 1/ SSSs and 2/3 Massacres and ruin them. (Dupe, StP & Bounce are also threats, but haste forces them to tutor it up on the spot and it only deals with 1 angel not both)

Dragon's Breath is cute, but its inconsistent and a waste of a spot. I'd rather have another counter or draw spell.

[Khahan]

Haste and Vigilance win games far more often and untargetability (and limited hardcastability) would.

Really the only match ups you are racing for combat damage are goblins and fish.

For goblins, you definitely want the vigilance and haste, both.

For fish, its just not needed. If you Oath vs fish and can keep your creature in play, you win.
Fish beats oath in 1 of 2 ways: Denies you getting Oath on the board (in which case, the hard castability of skyswallower might be useful) or takes out your creatures after you do Oath. When fish fails in both of these departments, it almost doesn't matter what the rest of the game state is, fish will lose to Oath.

My match record with Oath against u/w fish is horrid to say the least. Thinking back over the games, I could easily be at least .500 vs u/w fish if I had the skyswallower. 

[Moxlotus]

Wrong.  You are racing Gifts.  You are racing Slaver.  You are racing combo.  You cannot afford to give those decks any more turns than you have to.  Too many games are lost already with Oath on the table, why increase that number to help deflect targeted removal--which most decks don't even run anyways?

[UR]

While we're at it let's run Blazing Archon and Nullstone Gargoyle and Djinn Illuminatus. And how about Magnivore and Dragon Tyrant too?

You do realise that Dragon Tyrant has an upkeep of RRRR, right?