[Single Card Discussion] Voidslime

[Ben Kossman]

Ok, if this isn't playable in Vintage I don't know what is. For those of you who haven't seen...

Voidslime
UUG
Instant
Counter target spell, activated, or triggered ability

This card is good (understatement) in Oath for certain but does it justify splashing Green into something like Keeper or Slaver? Possibly. It's type one quality, the only question is which decks
it fits best into.

[forests failed you]

Voidslime is a really cool card, and its saucy in Standard;  However, I think that the high convereted mana cost of Three will keep it from seeing any kind of serious tournament play in Vintage.

[Juggernaut GO]

Don't start a thread about a type 2 card, it will get erased and you will get banned.

[UR]

Don't start a thread about a type 2 card, it will get erased and you will get banned.

Last sunday I played a whole bunch of T2 cards in my deck and came in 3rd, so I don't think that recent cards are a problem in itself. Heck, just look at Menendian's Ichorids.

The problem with this cards is that it is a counterspell that costs too many manas... Mana Leak, Mana Drain and FoW do an admirable job already and I just don't see this card competing with those three because the advantages don't outweigh the extra costs.

[Ben Kossman]

Man, a lot of you guys probably miss out on 99.9% of the good cards out there just based on the fact that your too lazy to test them. Did you even read the card?

[LordHomerCat]

"UUG"

Yep, thats probably about as far as you need to read.  3 COLORED Mana?  So its not active until turn 3?  And probably turn 4, as wasteland will cut your green (unless you have a forest? i guess).  Stifle costs 1 mana, so its efficient at countering fetches and random effects.  Drain gives you a ton of mana.  I fail to see where this card is good enough at 3 colored mana.

Edit:  Don't get me wrong, I love the card in standard, but its expensive and slow and doesn't do enough for Vintage.

[Hillboy]

its a cool card but a little cost prohibitive if it was UG it would be good enough. I wouldn't be surprised if a couple were splashed in something though

[GrandpaBelcher]

Man, a lot of you guys probably miss out on 99.9% of the good cards out there just based on the fact that your too lazy to test them. Did you even read the card?

Good cards, yes, but Vintage is all about the best cards.  The biggest problem with Voidslime is that it comes online at the same time the two biggest threats (Yawg Will and Tinker) do, which means playing second is really really bad for this card.  Plus, it's bad for countering Mana Drain since it costs more (in an awkward color no less) and worse than Stifle at doing things Stifle does.

[sa17dk]

Man, a lot of you guys probably miss out on 99.9% of the good cards out there just based on the fact that your too lazy to test them. Did you even read the card?

Yes we read it and it's crap. Give us a good example of a situation in which this card would be remotely useful and efficient.

[RThomas]

Yes we read it and it's crap. Give us a good example of a situation in which this card would be remotely useful and efficient.

Comments like this are better suited not to be said at all.  Really, if you can't explain why you don't think an idea is good without inserting the unneeded arrogance, don't bother trying.

Simply put, the card doesn't appear to give you enough strategy superiority in any matchup to justify trying to accomodate the prohibitive mana cost.  Realistically speaking, Stifle does most of the actions this card can do; however, in most situations, Stifle is a fundamentally weak card to be playing. 

Sex.dec anyone?

[Law]

I could see it as a one of in maby oath given that it comes ative after the turn that oath hits play to protect it and the creature it brings up. But thats a trully slime chance given that its casting cost is what trully lowers how much of an effect it will have.

Spell Snare shows more promice to be a card that will show up more. Even the new UG duel has more of a chance to be used in a deck that I can see.


The card has power and is good. It just lackes the punch needed to do well in type 1.

[Ben Kossman]

List of spells/effects Voidslime counters...

Welder, Mindslaver, Wasteland, Fetchlands, Bazaar of Baghdad, Worldgorger Dragon's leaves play effect, Standstill, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Psychatog, Tendrils storm effect, EVERY SINGLE SPELL AND EFFECT IN THE GAME!

And it's pitchable to Force of Will. Yes the cc is prohibitive but the versatility is worth it. The # one should run in a deck should run in a deck should be the argument here, not whether it's viable. It clearly is and the people that pass it up are going to feel really stupid in a few months when their going for $30-40.

[Joblin Velder]

Not even new duals are $30, dude.

[LordHomerCat]

Whats the last card to go for 30-40 dollars when it was standard legal?

I mean, I didn't play at the time, were Urza's cards even that expensive?  Nothing in my memory even comes close, with the highest being like $25 Jitte.  Modern day cards just don't cost that much.

If this card is sooooooo goooood, post a list.  Slaver, Oath, whatever you want, some random UG control, post up a list where this card is good.

[49 Cents]

List of spells/effects Voidslime counters...

Welder, Mindslaver, Wasteland, Fetchlands, Bazaar of Baghdad, Worldgorger Dragon's leaves play effect, Standstill, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Psychatog, Tendrils storm effect, EVERY SINGLE SPELL AND EFFECT IN THE GAME!

And it's pitchable to Force of Will. Yes the cc is prohibitive but the versatility is worth it. The # one should run in a deck should run in a deck should be the argument here, not whether it's viable. It clearly is and the people that pass it up are going to feel really stupid in a few months when their going for $30-40.

You are soooooo overhyping this card. 3 mana is ALOT, and this card requires COLORED mana! Than you should be able to look at it and dismiss it right away.. Even Stifle is better.

[Implacable]

List of spells/effects Voidslime counters...

Welder, Mindslaver, Wasteland, Fetchlands, Bazaar of Baghdad, Worldgorger Dragon's leaves play effect, Standstill, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Psychatog, Tendrils storm effect, EVERY SINGLE SPELL AND EFFECT IN THE GAME!

And it's pitchable to Force of Will. Yes the cc is prohibitive but the versatility is worth it. The # one should run in a deck should run in a deck should be the argument here, not whether it's viable. It clearly is and the people that pass it up are going to feel really stupid in a few months when their going for $30-40.

Have you ever p;ayed Type 1?

If you have, please quit.  If you have not, please don't.

[mgouthro]

Have you ever p;ayed Type 1?

If you have, please quit.  If you have not, please don't.

Heh, I'd rather him be playing vintage. I like free wins.

Honestly speaking though, people are right. This is a great card, but not in vintage. The 3cc with two different colour mana makes this even more difficult to play. Wasteland + Stripmine alone can make this an issue to cast. If a spell costs three mana, it better be something that can change the game (ie. Trinisphere, Yawg's Win, Tinker, Intuition, TFK, etc). This is either just a stifle or a counterspell, but kudos on keeping an open mind.

[ashiXIII]

List of spells/effects Voidslime counters...

Welder, Mindslaver, Wasteland, Fetchlands, Bazaar of Baghdad, Worldgorger Dragon's leaves play effect, Standstill, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Psychatog, Tendrils storm effect, EVERY SINGLE SPELL AND EFFECT IN THE GAME!

And it's pitchable to Force of Will. Yes the cc is prohibitive but the versatility is worth it. The # one should run in a deck should run in a deck should be the argument here, not whether it's viable. It clearly is and the people that pass it up are going to feel really stupid in a few months when their going for $30-40.

UUG is way too difficult to achieve in this format, especially against an opponent with Wastes. Any time you want to counter a spell, Drain does it better. Every time you want to counter an ability, Stifle does it better. Yes, this card can do either or, but it's still not worth the cost of UUG. The versatility of this card is certainly NOT worth the triple colored awkward casting cost.

P.S. This card doesn't counter Standstill. When you play this to counter the Standstill trigger, Standstill will trigger again, and that will resolve before Voidslime even does. Then, Voidslime will counter the original trigger which would have done nothing since Standstill wouldn't be in play to sacrifice. Good job; you just wasted the one and only time you had the mana to cast this in T1, and after you cast ANOTHER spell, none the less.

[policehq]

Welder, Mindslaver, Wasteland, Fetchlands, Bazaar of Baghdad, Worldgorger Dragon's leaves play effect, Standstill, Force of Will, Mana Drain, Psychatog, Tendrils storm effect, EVERY SINGLE SPELL AND EFFECT IN THE GAME!

I'll run through this list with you.

Goblin Welder - Okay, you have a one-shot counter against an effect that is recurring.

Mindslaver - Usually accompanies Goblin Welder. Voidslime would buy you another turn, but better answers to these cards would buy you the game.

Wasteland - Voidslime won't ever be cast against a deck with a full complement of Wastelands and Strip Mine.

Fetchland - You could counter this activated ability when you have UUG to cast it, but by that time they probably have a decent mana base for themselves, too.

Bazaar of Baghdad - Again, better answers are out there, and Voidslime comes after two or three activations have already taken place.

Standstill - Already been over this one.

Psychatog - Please tell me you just mean that this would counter Psychatog and never Stifle its activated ability. That would be incredibly stupid.

Tendrils storm effect - You're going to give them until turn 3 to set up their hand and not lose before you're ready to cast this instead of playing Stifle?

Every single spell and effect in the game - As a one-shot. All the cards you listed that don't require being sacrificed as part of the activation continue working. Last Word counters everything, can't be countered by this, is easier to play, and doesn't see play in Vintage. The triggered abilities, Storm and Dragon, need to be countered before you have UUG set up, and Stifle fills this role already.

Cards that do not care about Voidslime:
Gorilla Shaman
Goblin Welder
Sliver Queen/Ambassador Laquatus/Shivan Hellkite
Aether Vial
Goblin Lackey
Psychatog
Goblin Charbelcher
Stormscape Apprentice
Illusionary Mask
Bazaar of Baghdad
Wild Mongrel/Basking Rootwalla
Rootwater Thief
etc. etc. etc.

-hq

[dicemanx]

This isn't really about what cards it can affect. There's an overriding factor - it competes for slots with cards that will often generate similar effects for a much cheaper price. For instance, after you add the compulsory FoWs and Drains to your counter base, Voidslime starts getting stiff competition from cards like Mana Leak or Remand, which can be active by turn 1, or Counterspell ( a card not on the vintage radar at all) by turn 2.  You are trading the functionality (or lack of) the card in the early going for the added flexibility. That to me is too high of a  price to pay.

[sa17dk]

Yes we read it and it's crap. Give us a good example of a situation in which this card would be remotely useful and efficient.

Comments like this are better suited not to be said at all.  Really, if you can't explain why you don't think an idea is good without inserting the unneeded arrogance, don't bother trying.

The reasons why it is bad is quite obvious. It isn't my job to tell him that, because if he hasn't realized why its bad yet, then he hasn't fully analyzed the card. Secondly, he's suggesting the use of the card. Therefore, first and foremostly he should be telling me why the card is good.

Man, a lot of you guys probably miss out on 99.9% of the good cards out there just based on the fact that your too lazy to test them. Did you even read the card?

I cant believe you would call me arrogant while ignoring what he just said.

[policehq]

This isn't really about what cards it can affect. There's an overriding factor - it competes for slots with cards that will often generate similar effects for a much cheaper price. For instance, after you add the compulsory FoWs and Drains to your counter base, Voidslime starts getting stiff competition from cards like Mana Leak or Remand, which can be active by turn 1, or Counterspell ( a card not on the vintage radar at all) by turn 2.  You are trading the functionality (or lack of) the card in the early going for the added flexibility. That to me is too high of a  price to pay.

I still think, if he has such an argument, that it would be nice knowing exactly what he aims to hose with Voidslime. As a counter, it's never going to have a spot. As a Stifle, you need Stifle cast much earlier in the game for it to have effect because it is only 1cc.

Azorious Guildmage is a bear with the ability to do this effect, and people still aren't playing him because even though you have the option of not using his activated ability, doing so would cost too much mana. Voidslime, acting only one time, is far worse than the options we already have.

-hq

[lordmayhem]

Yes the cc is prohibitive but the versatility is worth it.

No. A prohibitive mana cost is not justified by versatility.

EVERY SINGLE SPELL AND EFFECT IN THE GAME!

On turn 3. If you're lucky. This is a joke thread right?

The # one should run in a deck should run in a deck should be the argument here, not whether it's viable. It clearly is and the people that pass it up are going to feel really stupid in a few months when their going for $30-40.

Seeing as you have made no argument as to WHY its viable and everybody seems to think otherwise, no I don't think the argument should be the number one should run. Hold your horses. Why do YOU think its good? You say it clearly is. Perhaps I'm one of the ignorant majority or perhaps you're over-excited. In either case, please explain WHY its so clear that its good.

[policehq]

Careful, Lord Mayhem.

"Good" isn't really the point. Better than Force of Will, Mana Drain, Mana Leak, Remand, Annul, Daze, and Stifle is what he needs to explain meticulously and show testing results.

We're all posting based on theory here, which generally I don't do (and get sick of when I post tested decks), but in a format where have Tinker at U2, same converted mana cost as Voidslime, and we have much more efficient counters, what deck would I play this in, to what benefit, and what would I cut out?

We've given you reasons this will never see play in Vintage (and thus, even if it makes it to a $15 price tag, it won't last past rotation); please, feel free to back up your argument.

-hq

[lordmayhem]

By "Good" I personally take far more into consideration than just the effect.

At face-value, a 'counter-all' is pretty damn good. But not at that costing. If this was say UG over say UUG, then yeah, this would have been worthy of consideration IMO.

[Ben Kossman]

Look, my point is simply that you guys seem to get more pleasure out of proving me wrong than even taking the time to test the card before you start flaming me. It's a hard counter
and amazingly versatile as well.

Man, a lot of you guys probably miss out on 99.9% of the good cards out there just based on the fact that your too lazy to test them. Did you even read the card?

I cant believe you would call me arrogant while ignoring what he just said.

And yes, I am arrogant the only difference between me and the posers flaming me is that I'll admit it.

[dicemanx]

Look, my point is simply that you guys seem to get more pleasure out of proving me wrong than even taking the time to test the card before you start flaming me. It's a hard counter
and amazingly versatile as well.

So in other words, you started this thread not in the interest of starting a discussion, but to have people pat you on the back for an amazing discovery?

If you want to present something concrete (like a decklist) where testing has proven to you that Voidslime is a particularly effective spell, that would be another story. Instead, you're speculating on the strength of the card. Well, you're receiving speculation in turn. It doesn't mean that Voidslime won't be examined by many of us at some point, but the card will always face very harsh criticism in any theoretical debate. It's a very cool spell, and flexibility is amazing, but the price to pay for that flexibility is extremely high for vintage, bordering on prohibitive. I'm hoping I'll be proven wrong, as I like to see an increase in diversity, but I wouldn't hold my breath on this one.

If you want to be the one to prove the naysayers wrong, then challenge us with something concrete. here's your chance.

[Ben Kossman]

I don't need anyone to "pat me on the head" and I don't really have a problem with criticism. It just seems like the automatic reaction of a lot of people as opposed to a reasonable, logical response is to take one look at whatever flaw a given card has and write it off. False cynicism is just really lame and I'm tired of hearing it online and in the real world. I started this thread to have a discussion about a card that clearly has potential. For three mana I can't think of a better deal than "counter everything" aside from Necro, Yawgmoth's Will, and Tinker. This card by the way counters all three of them, Storm effects vs. Tendrils, Standstill vs. Fish, and it buys you a turn vs. Oath in the Mirror match. I'm not really sure how else to make my point. I mean three mana isn't really that expensive at all. If I was trying to say Echoing Silence was viable  I've already had it used most effectively against me in Standard and expect to see it in Vintage in the near future. If your too smart to play this card because it's a "type 2 card" then go have a cookie, I couldn't care less. It's not like I'm sitting here trying to get people to play the card, just discuss it. The argument that the cc is prohibitive is totally valid and I don't really disagree but I still think it's a pretty good utility card and worth 2-3 slots in a blue based control like Oath which is notoriusly weak against cards already in play. You can actually topdeck Voidslime and be happy as opposed to dead. The cc isn't that prohibitive in a deck w/Basic land as every viable control deck I've seen has enough basics to play vs. Wasteland. The reality is that most games will in fact reach the point where this card is a factor and combo generally has trouble going off before turn 3 short of a god draw. This isn't an amazing discovery by any stretch of the imagination, it's a good card whether the community acknowledges it or not. Popular opinion doesn't determine a given card's effectiveness. Results do and I think that this card will show up in the near future. Whether someone thinks it's good or not they should be prepared for it. 

[Draven]

I don't need anyone to "pat me on the head" and I don't really have a problem with criticism. It just seems like the automatic reaction of a lot of people as opposed to a reasonable, logical response is to take one look at whatever flaw a given card has and write it off. False cynicism is just really lame and I'm tired of hearing it online and in the real world. I started this thread to have a discussion about a card that clearly has potential, not to get flamed. For three mana I can't think of a better deal than "counter everything" aside from Necro, Yawgmoth's Will, and Tinker. This card by the way counters all three of them and Storm effects vs. Tendrils and Standstill vs. Fish. That alone makes it worth consideration. I'm not really sure how else to make my point. I mean three mana isn't really that expensive at all. If I was trying to say Echoing Silence was viable I would deserve to get flamed but honestly most of the criticism I'm hearing is contrived whereas my post was simply an attempt to discuss a new card. I've already had it used most effectively against me in Standard and expect to see it in Vintage in the near future. If your too smart to play this card because it's a "type 2 card" then go have a cookie, I couldn't[/color] care less. It's not like I'm sitting here trying to get people to play the card, just discuss it. The argument that the cc is prohibitive is totally valid and I don't really disagree but I still think it's a pretty good utility card and worth 2-3 slots in a blue based control like Oath which is notoriusly weak against cards already in play. You can actually topdeck Voidslime and be happy as opposed to dead.

I agree with you that this is a really cool card. I love counters, I love Stifle... Lets slap 'em together and have a badass card, right? Not quite...

You compare this to Necro, Will and Tinker...

There are some fundemental differences in Voideslime and the others. Save Necro, Tinker and Will have 2 colorless in their casting cost, and Necro is cast off Rits, so it is in the same boat. There are very easy to play.

Secondlly, all three of the above (Necro, Will and Tinker) have GAME WINNING effects. Voidslime isn't going to win the game for you. Really this card shines has a hard counter that can be used as a stifle. Like has been said many times, stifle is good turn 1 or 2 when your opponant is fetching and wasteing (huge effect to stifle here), however by the time you have this card online, it's use has diminished considerably.

You can actually topdeck Voidslime and be happy as opposed to dead.

I don't get this line. How is topdecking a Voideslime any better than a Mana Drain or Stifle?

[Ben Kossman]

Mana Drain can't affect cards in play and Stifle can't counter creatures or spells. This can.