abyssal decks

[bebe]

http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=405

So it seems we nhave new deck coming out - the Abyssal Noctumus deck. First it places in N. America then it goes top four in Europe in a 65 man tournament. In Canada we are also seeing more sui type decks (need to be careful here as to what to call them ) popping up. So why this resurgence? Well, the decks have answers to some of the
most prevalent archtypes. 

So lets look at the decks core creatures first ...

Abyssal Nocturnus
The beast - at three mana you have the potential to deal four damage and up a turn with no drawbacks.
Fear is just a nice bonus.

Dark Confidant
An obvious inclusion in almost any deck that can support it.

Hypnotic Specter
Everyone and their uncle had discounted discard as a viable
tactic. But these decks are making a comeback now and
Hyppie is a nice beater as well.

Nantuko Shade/Negator
Both these creatures have their place - I prefer the Shade as
I'm not going to be happy going against Fish or Mountains
with the Negator and it can be sideboarded.

So what makes the deck tick?
Duress
Unmask
Hymn to tourach
These seem auto includes in all the builds. Some variants sport
Cabal Therapy as well and the
European one put in a Mind Twist ( really unnecessary)

How do we maintain cointrol -
Planar Void
Tormod's Crypt
Pithing Needle
Null Rods
Leyline of the Void
Chains of Mephistopheles
Now we need to consider our meta as all of these are very soft locks.
I've been testing with Leylines and Chains maindeck and really like the synergy.
The sideboard can include Massacres, Needles, Null Rods, Therapies,
Edicts, Chalices or whatever you choose to put there for your meta.
The question remains - what do we maineckand what goes in the
soideboard.

Additional Search -
Do we need any of these ... ?
Demonic, Vampiric, Will, Necro, Consult 
I've seen decks run with and without them
and I'm liking one turor and Will myself. 

Mana -
Again I've seen it played many ways. Obviously Rituals,
Moxen ( Chrome and Jet ) and a Lotus go in. But do we need
Wastelands and Strip? These cards, a traditional staple of Sui,
have become less and less useful in todays meta.

I have been testing a niumber of builds and am still not even close to a definitive build.
I have been going with Leylines, Chains and a few Needles
maindeck with the standard discard spells - unmask, duress and hymn. I've used Nantuko over
Negator and I maindeck a copy of Edict and two tutors to fetch it or my Needles or my Chains.

The deck definately seems to have potential. So lets see. as a group, how we can go about
optimising it ot even if it is worth pursuing.


 

[Moriarty]

Well to begin with, Abyssal Nocturnus seems rather weak. It reminds me of Megrim, a classic that also says "if you can force your opponent to discard lots of cards (a condition that would often be a sign of the game going your way regardless) he also takes some damage". By itself, Megrim does nothing. Abyssal Nocturnus is by itself a 2/2 creature for 1BB, or close to nothing. For this to have serious impact you need to start it off with a ritual on turn one, otherwise it is likely to arrive too late to make a difference, since the cheap effective discard spells should obviously be played as fast as possible. The anti-synergy with Hypnotic Specter is horrible. I would attribute any limited success this decktype may have had lately to Confidant rather than to the Nocturnus.

[cssamerican]

I too am not sure if Abyssal Nocturnus has anything to do with the decks success. I would be more inclined to think that the deck has shown success because it actually disrupts Drain decks long enough to win. Fish needs to when the disruption battle for too long and Goblins tend to try to win without any disruption. This seems to fall in that middle ground. Faster clock than fish and more disruption than Goblins.

So, when it comes to optimizing this deck I think you need to find the right balance. I would be surprised if the Hyppie was the right call because it doesn't do much unless you can cast it off a Dark Ritual. Still I wouldn't completely discount it, but I would definitely be looking there as the first place to try to improve the deck.

I would be intrested to hear from these people just to find out what decks they played against. If they played mainly Drain decks and a few Dark Ritual decks than it is quite possible that any well built suicide deck would have done well. It is actually a GOOD deck concept if all you do is play Drain decks and a few Ritual decks here and there. If that was the case (Which is likely due to the recent meta shifts) than I think you could easily build a better version for this type of meta. What does this deck do that would make it any better than previous incarnation of suicide? That is what I would ask the people who piloted the deck. I mean is there some match-up in which Abyssal Nocturnus can swing a traditionally bad match-up into a even or favorable match-up? Just curious.

[bebe]

Yes, I was also not too fond of the Hyppies w/ the Noctumus but w/ chains on the table you do create some problems. I have been tetsing Nezumi Shortfang in that slot but how janky is that? The European tournament had 65 players - I'm guessing he had to face more than just drain decks and the american version also did well. So it does present an anomaly. Just for reference, i've been testing this build ...

4 Dark Confidant
4 Abyssal Nocturnus
4 Nantuko Shade
3 Nezumi Shortfang

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawg's Win

4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Unmask

4 Leyline of the Void
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Pithing Needle
1 Diabolic Edict

16 Swamp
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual

sb:
4 Phyrexian Negator
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Null Rod
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Massacre
1 Chains of Mephistopheles

Notice there is a complete absence of wastes and strips as they have been less than stellar recently.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Abyssal Nocturnus seems too slow and mana intensive to be any good.  Additionally, it isn't disruptive, just big.  I would suggest cutting it and adding Nantuko Shakes for more beaters or Cabal Therapy for more disruption.  Therapy seems better than maindeck needles, anyway.

[Fubar]

I suppose without going the LD route(sinkholes) the wastes are unimportant. But I can't see why you would not want to put in a lone strip, its almost too good to bump into not to.  Also, am i correct in assuming that hymn triggers to creature twice, once for each card?

[Hillboy]

Looks neat, wonder why unmask is big in them, I'd think runnin more cabal therapys would be better

[bebe]

Unmask gets rid of your unwanted leylines. Cabal Therapy might indeed be better than needles ( I just have a foondness for needles) and ading one strip would be acceptable although hardly game breaking.
CUT NOCTURMUS! That's the whole point of the thread. Otherwise play neosui - there are some good lists hanging around and I like kirdape's a lot. BTW, Shades are already in the deck. You would need to add some one drops to make the clock speedier.

[Nastaboi]

Is Yawg Win really needed? Sure it helps you to come back if things gone awry, but this deck cannot really abuse it and would be IMO better with a more consistent card in its place. Then, I would run Demonic Consultation over Tutor, especially if you cut Will.

I still think Nocturnus is more meh than essential, but if it works, why not then. Leyline+Unmask is some good times. You might take four from Confidant now and then, but who cares. Shortfang is something ofter overlooked, it can be totally useless or real pain in the ass. Flipping one means victory.

[TimeWizzle]

With a ton of discard stuff, and Chains preventing your opponent from ever really growing his hand, would The Rack be good here?  One colorless mana, independent of blockers, etc. dealing damage could be good.  Someone mentioned that a flipped shortfang is gg, the Rack seems like a means to the same end. 

[Kieranwolf]

I'm not sure how wonderful Chains really is. The synergy between it and Bob is great, but I'd rather have more disruption since the danger of Tinker -> fatty still lies on the topdeck, Chains  or no Chains.

On the flip side, Chains is pretty ok if you have your opponent in topdeck mode and they don't draw Tinker. Just like those other 'win-more' cards. There are also cards like Gifts Ungiven, Impulse, Intuition and the tutors that don't care about Chains in the least.

I think I'd rather have Therapy in that slot. It can be re-used even after being countered, and is a great followup to Duress. It also acts as both a panic button and a hoser against Oath. More than two would be cool, since you need disruption constantly against those nasty blue decks in the early game. In the mainboard, though, two sounds like a good idea if you don't know your opponent's deck well most of the time.

Needles can be proactive or reactive, creating dead cards in your opponent's deck and saving your ass against powerful effects like that of Goblin Welder. I like the idea of having two in the maindeck. Just like with Therapy, you have to name the right card, but with Needle you can deal with cards already on the table, too.

Nocturnus seems really inefficient for its cost, and others have mentioned that it doesn't disrupt and is therefore not so good. I'd actually rather have Carnophage in that slot against a Mana Drain deck. The life cost is more negligible than Confidant's, and it brings the mana curve down even lower.

Not that Carnophage has a faster clock or is better at disruption. I just don't know of any other black creatures that are good at those two besides Wretch in the one or two mana zone.

Y. Will also looks iffy to me, but how else can you replay stuff from your graveyard in a mono black deck? It seems really good if you manage to make it to the late game. You can recast rituals and needles/edicts and fill your board with creatures (yes, for the win).

[Dante]

I tested this deck when I first saw it on morphling.de against Gifts and Slaver, decks it should be geared to beat.  It was surprisingly even at first until I realized that there are no outs for Tinker-DSC at least in that version. 

Any simple Vamp/mystical/topdeck of Tinker was game over (pre-sideboard anyway).  1 DT and 1 Edict main aren't quite enough.

Also, any deck this redundant should have Demonic Consultation - instant, card in hand, a no brainer.

[Kieranwolf]

Any simple Vamp/mystical/topdeck of Tinker was game over (pre-sideboard anyway). 1 DT and 1 Edict main aren't quite enough.

Gasp! Dante's right!

I didn't mention it in my last post, but I did do some aggro/control testing against Gifts (actually, I talk about how broken Tinker is a lot).

I went with two Edicts in my B/G list along with the Demonic, and boarded in two more Edicts against Gifts. Sometimes I needed to cast Edict twice in a turn, too, because of FoW.

This was also in a list with lots of fast mana and three Null Rods main. Rod makes an early Tinker impossible, if not really difficult.

The fact that on my first tourney day playing Gifts all but one of my game wins were with Tinker -> DSC only re-enforces the importance of having an out against it.

[bebe]

so the general suggestions would be
- 2 chains
- 1 will

+ 2 edict
+ 1 consultation

I did suspect that one edict was not enough. I was generally able to play it when I had it in hand as
your opponent has difficulty getting an FoW/blue card with the disruption you run. Chains can always be sided in. 
I'll do a bit more testing against Gifts and see what develops. .

[Ben Kossman]

Looks solid. I'm guess stax is your worst matchup right? I've been pondering how to win that one myself. Have you tested the Rack? I've always hated seeing it on the other side of the table back in the day.

[Nastaboi]

Not that Carnophage has a faster clock or is better at disruption. I just don't know of any other black creatures that are good at those two besides Wretch in the one or two mana zone.

Looks solid. I'm guess stax is your worst matchup right? I've been pondering how to win that one myself.

Sarcomancy is also 2/2 for B and it doesn't even damage you always. Better yet, it gives you a free permanent to happily sac to Smokestack.

The Rack does nothing on its own. Every time it is played against me, I have just congratulated myself for going +1 on card advantage.

[Mark_Story]

I think in a deck like this shortfang is generally stronger than the rack.  Although shortfang seems janky, he has a lot more utility than the rack.  He can force discards until he flips, and becomes the rack basically.  Furthermore, he can beat if you are tight on mana or he becomes stabwhisker. 

A deck similar to this did well in a small tournament in toronto recently.  The field was almost entirely filled with drain decks and a few combo decks.  The chains/rod and discard spells are hard to get around.  As for dealing with darksteel colossus, ensnaring bridge still works.  More edicts are a decent solution as well.  I did notice that this deck does terribly against anything powered by shops.

[Kieranwolf]

Has anyone tested four Chalice main yet?

It has good synergy with Leyline of the Void.

I made these changes:

-2 Needle
-1 Nantuko Shade
-1 Edict
-8 Swamp

+4 Chalice
+4 Mishra's Factory
+2 Bloodstained Mire
+2 Polluted Delta

Factory beats happen regardless of Chalices. The only bad thing is that Factories become artifacts and are vulnerable to cards like RacknRuin and Shattering Spree. Fetch lands thin the deck (though there's absolutely no reason to have them otherwise in here).

Chalice seems pretty good at slowing down Tinker on the play.

Leyline is pretty scary just by itself. It wrecks CS' normal game plan and prevents Gifts from Y. Winning. It also neuters Ichorid and can do a number on certain Stax builds. Leyline is also an enchantment, so hate for it can be pretty rare sometimes (especially mainboard). the only problem of course is that you need it to open the game with.

I forgot about Sarcomancy. It's definitely about eighty times more awesome than Carnophage. I'd definitely take out the Abyssals for four of him, despite the fact that Chalice @ 1 totally rocks the socks off some decks.

Chalice also might marginally improve the Stax matchup, but I'm not too sure about that. It's another permanent at least, and it stops their moxen.

I still think that strip effects might be good, especially with Leyline. When playtesting against Abyssal with Gifts I don't have to worry about opening hands with duals and Academy and no basics or fetches.

Actually, I think that Leyline is one of the most powerful cards in the deck when you open with it. It's like biting into a tasty, juicy steak or something. Mmm...

[Tyler]

First post here :p Hellllloooo all !

It's interesting, because I just started testing some B/G Aggro/Disruption deck, which as a lot of similar cards.

My current decklist (keep in mind I'm still testing, this is why I have 1-ofs, I want to feel if they are good or not):


// Lands
    1  Strip Mine
    9  Swamp
    1  Forest
    2  Overgrown Tomb
    4  Bayou

// Creatures
    3  Nantuko Shade
    3  Withered Wretch
    4  Dark Confidant
    3  Skyshroud Elite
    3  Hypnotic Specter

// Spells
    4  Null Rod
    4  Duress
    3  Cabal Therapy
    4  Dark Ritual
    4  Land Grant
    4  Root Maze
    1  Chains of Mephistopheles
    1  Demonic Tutor
    1  Choke
    1  Rancor

// Sideboard
SB: 1  Null Rod
SB: 1  Choke
SB: 3  Chalice of the Void
SB: 4  Diabolic Edict
SB: 2  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 4  Naturalize


I play a green splash for ROOT MAZE, which I find is really good:
-with it, fetches need 2 turns before producing mana (this is the reason why I play Land Grant instead of fetches myself... but it might not be the best choice, because it reveals my hand)
-it slows down decks like slaver/combo
-tendril combo has a harder time comboing off without artifacts (and they can't just EOT rebuild it, because it is an enchantment ).

I play the Overgrown Tomb because it is good, and if you have Root Maze in play, you don't care about the drawback.



This deck is quite good against combo, because of the discard, the Wretch (good against Yawg Will), the Root Maze, the Null Rod... (combo has a hard time comboing of with Root Maze + Null Rod in play.. of course they can try the Cabal Ritual plan, but it is still hard).

Against stax, the Wretch is great against welders. Moreover, I think Rancor can be good against Smokestack, because it gives one permanent every turn.. Finally, we have lots of basic lands, which makes a Wasteland + Crucible lock harder for them.

Things like Tormod Crypt or Jester Cap do nothing against this deck.

Against Ichorid, we have Wretch and creatures to block.

Against Control, we have a lot of discard, Confidants, Root Maze + Null Rod + Choke to own their manabases, and some really effective beaters (if they let a Nantuko Shade hit play, they are dead in a few turn).

Right now I am testing Rancor, Chain of Mephistopheles, and maindeck Choke. Choke is great in today's metagame, where blue is very often played.



I'm not sure about the Skyshroud Elites, because even though it does apply early pressure, it has no other ability. I'm also not sure with the SB Jitte, I think it is good against random aggro decks, though...

We might also need to use maindeck Diabolic Edict, to counter Tinker->Colossus.


Thoughts?

[Mark_Story]

Just a little problem with your deck list.  You have 5 null rods.  So I'm assuming that there are 3 main, and one in the side.  I think this deck is a little unfocused.  It seems like it plays a lot of metagame cards, like choke, and chains.  Which are house against slaver/gifts but are kind of chaff against shop decks.  So I think something like this deck needs to be heavily metagamed, as if you run the wrong hate you'll be screwed. 

Depending on what your meta looks like I would be switching out your rancor, choke, chains, for a single option.  Which will increase your chances of finding it when you need them.

I don't think that you need to run land grant.  Revealing your hand can be very disadvantageous in many circumstances.  It lets your opponent know exactly what you are going to play.  Unless you can always follow a grant up with a therapy or duress. 

Personally I think that red or white will give you better options than green will.  red gives you good artifact destruction, as does white.  Improving the shop matchup.  Something a deck like this usually needs.  White gives you good weenies like true believer.

[Tyler]

Interesting.


I definitely have too much Null Rods in the deck, it should be 3.


I think you are right, because the only reason I run green is for Root Maze... But still, Root Maze is really great!

White could work well, with Kataki against artifacts, True Believer against combo, StP, Disenchant.

But I still want to play Root Maze! I might try a white AND green splash? Problem will be the manabase.



I think the same about Land Grant, I should get rid of them, because:
a) they give too much information about my hand to the opponent
b) when I am mana screwed with a land grand, and the opponent sees that, he can counter it and I'm screwed



An idea would be to run, like you said, 1-of's of Rancor/Choke/Chains, and run mure tutors to find them. Choke is just great in today's metagame, and when the opponent does not play islands, I can just side them out! I think I saw maindeck Chokes in one of Smennen's Stax lists, and I was trying them out.




The problem with my deck is that I basically play a lot of hate cards as a way to disrupt the opponent while I beat him down with my creatures, and this strategy depends a lot on the metagame, which is bad against random decks.


Thanks for the advice, I might try to modify the deck and post it in a new thread, because I don't want to change the subject of this thread, even though my deck has a lot of cards in common with the decks talked about here.