Quick Discussion about fish.

[Colonel Sanders]

After reading few out of many posts about fish I wanted to kind of get peoples opinions & ideas about Samurai of The Pale Curtain. It is a great card in my opinion and perfect for fish, not only is it a threat for all you Yawgmoth users, but it is a great creature to send foth and attack with. I was thinking this because there are alot of graveyard recursion out there...Anyways, if there was a topic about this already I apologize. I searched and read many things about the different builds. I am just curious if  anyone else besides me thinks that SotpC is of any use in fish.

[Roxas]

Read the card please.

If a permanent would be put into a graveyard, remove it from the game instead.

You spend WW and a card to possibly keep Black Lotus, Lion's Eye Diamond, and lands out of a Yawgmoth's Will.  Congratulations.

[combo_dude]

This did get used briefly, but mainly with Aether Vial as some anti-Dragon tech. It may warrant a slot in a similar deck nowadays, since Ichorid may be pretty popular at Rochester, for the fact that it's so easy to put together if for no other reason.

[Duncan]

Nevertheless, it stops a crucible lock, which is kind of scary against almost all fish builds.

[Colonel Sanders]

Read the card please.

If a permanent would be put into a graveyard, remove it from the game instead.

You spend WW and a card to possibly keep Black Lotus, Lion's Eye Diamond, and lands out of a Yawgmoth's Will.  Congratulations.

Right, It is great against welders, Crucible of Worlds' users. So I am taking it that it isnt worth putting it in Main deck... Also I dont know why isamaru is in main deck. I am running 4 kataki and 4 SotPC instead of the full 4 Isamaru Hound of Khonda.

[Harlequin]

I think Sacred Ground is WAY better than this.  It not only stops Crucible lock, but it stops stax lock as well.  Although I could see this working as Anti-Ichorid Tech... but then again, just run some first strikers like Silver Knight.

[BreathWeapon]

Silver Knight doesn't stop Stax from using Crucible with Smokestack, Wasteland or Barbarian Ring or remove Slaver's Welder targets. Considering it has a functional ability against three of the best decks in the format, you could certainly include a copy or two in your MD over Withered Wretch.

Isamaru is for T2

[Evenpence]

This card is horrible.

I couldn't care less if you have a 2/2 Permanent Planar Void in play.

I'll win with Karn, Duplicant, Titan, etc.  Don't even get me started about Ubazaar.

Oh, and all the other decks don't care.

This guy is non-useful.

[Harlequin]

Silver Knight doesn't stop Stax from using Crucible with Smokestack, Wasteland or Barbarian Ring or remove Slaver's Welder targets. Considering it has a functional ability against three of the best decks in the format, you could certainly include a copy or two in your MD over Withered Wretch.

Isamaru is for T2

The silver knight comment was to cover the Ichorid Bases.  As I see it Pale Curtain is argueable 'good' agianst 2 decks and 2 decks only -- thats Stax and Ichorid.  Therefor I was giving cards that at better or more versitle namely: Sacred Ground to cover stax, and Silver Knight (or Jitte) to cover Ichorid.

[roberts91rom]

Stax can hardcast bombs and Ichorid has a SB packed with answers to Planar Void. Game 1 is the only time this guy will be good. CS walks all over Fish, especially if you just strained yourself to hit WW. Fish gives me so many turns and he is still not an answer for Tinker->Colossus, or Titan, or Pentavus. Post-board Pyroclasm, Massacre, Rolling Earthquake, etc. Any Fish deck packing this guy will run him in low numbers, and in the SB. Thank you and good night.

[Guli]

About fish...

My opinion in short is:
Every creature you chose is essential and every other card in your deck should have synergy with them or add somthing. In essence the creatures you pick are limited and must add to the gameplan or reinforce it somehow.
Another thing about the creatures that one would pick for a aggro control, they have to do something in TYPE 1. They have to be a big threat with an ability or have immediate effect on the table

big threat: Negator,Withered Wretch,Dark Confidant,Gorilla Shaman,... (creatures that will have effect next turn or when you have mana the turn they come into play)

instant pressure: Kataki,Meddling Mage,True Believer,... (these guys are the best if you ask me if you want to exploit the fish idea at his best. You cast a 2/* bear and at the same time change something on the board)

Most of the times you combine the 2 groups. I think blue should be added in every fish deck

Meddling Mage (stops big threats in other words preventive countering while casting a bear > tempo gain)
Ancestral Recall (  :lol: )
Brainstorm (draw, search for answers get rid of useless cards)
Time Walk (tempo gain)
Force of Will (free > tempo gain)

So when i start with this skelet i see already white splashed. So i immediatly add STP

+ Swords to plowshares



Here is a very powerfull decklist that is build around the previous cards

U/W Fish
Suggested by Rian Litchard on 2005-12-25 as a potential deck for Vintage

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Null Rod

Creatures
4 Meddling Mage
4 Savannah Lions
3 Stormscape Apprentice

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Force Of Will
3 Swords To Plowshares
   

Legendary Creatures
3 Isamaru, Hound Of Konda
4 Kataki, War's Wage

Sorceries
1 Time Walk

Basic Lands
2 Island
2 Plains

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:

3 Pithing Needle
4 True Believer
4 Seal Of Cleansing
3 Last Breath
1 Swords To Plowshares

I splashed black to this list to use Dark Confidant, basicly i replaced the lions and hounds with Negators and Confidants. Demonic Tutor is also a bomb in fish decks. If you have 4 mana turn 3-4 it is your seccond time walk or Null rod or whatever you need (Ancestral R maybe?)

UWB Aggro/Control ²⁰⁰⁶

// Mana
    2 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta

    3 Scrubland
    4 Underground Sea
    4 Tundra
   
    1 Black Lotus
    1 mox Ruby
    1 Mox Pearl
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Emerald

// Creatures
    4 Dark Confidant
    3 Kataki, War's Wage
    4 Meddling Mage
    3 Phyrexian Negator

// Spells

    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Stifle
    3 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Time Walk
    3 Suppression Field
    2 Null Rod
    1 Rushing River
    1 Rebuild
    4 Force of Will

// SB

   3 True Believer
   3 Writhered Wretch
   3 Sacred Ground
   1 Swords to plowshares
   3 Stormscape Apprentice
   2 Null Rod

[Rock Lee]

Col. Sanders: Concerning the Samurai, by the time you cast him, you've lost. Fish MUST be filled with not just creatures that affect the board, but ones that control and dominate it. Creatures that your opponent MUST answer: Ninja of Deep Hours, Meddling mage, Kataki, Confidant are good examples of tide-swinging cards. Cards that recoup your hand after cantripping your opponent.

The Lowdown is this: If Fish isn't controlling the board its being bent over and spanked. You need the best possible creatures. Samurai doesn't even come near the cut.

Guli: guli: without quick answers you lose to combo. suppression field is "cool", that's it. I also strongly advise rethinking Daze, as you need every bit of support you can muster against combo and control alike. I strongly advise against any card that is cast at sorcery speed that is not Timewalk, Wasteland, or a potent Creature.

[Harlequin]

I strongly advise against any card that is cast at sorcery speed that is not Timewalk, Wasteland, or a potent Creature.

... Or Extract. 

[Guli]

Guli: guli: without quick answers you lose to combo. suppression field is "cool", that's it. I also strongly advise rethinking Daze, as you need every bit of support you can muster against combo and control alike. I strongly advise against any card that is cast at sorcery speed that is not Timewalk, Wasteland, or a potent Creature.

I understand, let me ask you something

It has been a while i played combo, can you give me some list of a recent deck or the latest top notch combo deck...

Stifle,Force of Will,Meddling Mage,Null Rod should put up a decent fight against combo (i think)

*Daze, hehe i use to like that card so much. In fact i totally should try it again maybe. However taking back an island did set me back in my mana buildup...

I have a strong feeling i should change the mana base aswell if Daze is a potential add.

[Guli]

I should also point out i am getting pretty good results from my list. I would like to play against combo. Does anybody want to play with workstation? Send me a private message if you do.

Another note:

Suppression Field

It is not just 'cool'. It has a lot effect on many type 1 cards. For example Any Bazar deck need to find 2 extra mana just to bazar. Think what will happen if a seccond S F hits the board.
Fetching doesn't seem so easy anymore. And neither does wasting/stripping (wich is risky anyway for the opponent with stifle at my side).

Goblin welder,Psychatog,Wild mongrel,Gorilla shaman,tinder wall,stormscape A,Zombie infestation,Y.Bargain,rootwalla,...... list is far from over

It is a very good disruption adding a lot strenght to my gameplan. Daze could be a nice counter because it has some synergy with S F.

[Rock Lee]

Now you're just asking for a beating...

Bazaar: Beats you before you play SF, or has.. infinite mana?
Welder: doesn't care
Psychotog: will E-Truth you and just go lethal with insane draw engine
G Shaman: Monkey smashes... what?...
Tinder Wall: um.. TURN 1 WIN!
Bargain:kills you before you play it
Necro: draws 14 in response to SF
Zombie Infest: Is still played?
Wild Mongrel: pounds your face anyhow. 1 Rootwalla pwns the entire deck?
Fetchlands: You run them...

Maybe you just like the challenge of playing with dead cards in your deck, or maybe you are enticed by "cool" ideas, but do yourself a favor and forget SF until activated abilities are dominating more than just 25% of the meta tops.

[Guli]

Now you're just asking for a beating...

Bazaar: Beats you before you play SF, or has.. infinite mana?
Welder: doesn't care
Psychotog: will E-Truth you and just go lethal with insane draw engine
G Shaman: Monkey smashes... what?...
Tinder Wall: um.. TURN 1 WIN!
Bargain:kills you before you play it
Necro: draws 14 in response to SF
Zombie Infest: Is still played?
Wild Mongrel: pounds your face anyhow. 1 Rootwalla pwns the entire deck?
Fetchlands: You run them...

Maybe you just like the challenge of playing with dead cards in your deck, or maybe you are enticed by "cool" ideas, but do yourself a favor and forget SF until activated abilities are dominating more than just 25% of the meta tops.

You have no idea what you are talking about, i suggest you playtest the card

[Rock Lee]

your response is laughable.

If I hadn't playtested it.. I wouldn't have even responded...

[Harlequin]

The problem with suppression field is two fold.  Firstly, it comes down (as Rock pointed out) too slow.  Your sporting full moxen compliment, wich is nice.  But even so turn 1 stifle is likely the speed you'd need to make the card work.   (I would also like to toss out that Tinderwall is a mana ability... unless your talking about the combat trick)

The More important problem is that, if your plan is to throw it down early, you end up reshapeing the deck to support the card.  Which means that if you do HAVE a supression field out, your at an advantage.  But if do NOT have supression field out, you are at an extreme disadvantage because your useing sub-optimal solutions to problems.  I'm critical of your list because you run only 4 counterspells, 0 Wasteland effects, and 0 man-lands.  You're missing out on cards that normally do double duty.  Also your running 2 Null Rods, and 0 chalices.  So moxen are an issue as well.  And lastly you have no maindeck graveyard hate.  You have your wretches pushed to the side because of Supression field. I simply fail to see how this is better than straight counters or Pithing needle + 4th stifle.

[Guli]

Guys like i said you are both talking about something you havent tried yet. Pure therory. It is too slow is not an argument. There is no problem with SF it is a good way of disruption. I am not saying it is a bomb or game breaking card. However it has sufficient impact and it is an enchantment wich is hard to get rid of. I usually play a turn 1 Confidant if i can. But if i know that my opponent is going to play a fetch  or uses wastelands/bazar i try to play SF as fast as possible. Alone the card is crap. But combined with mana denial (kataki,null rod, stifle) it becomes huge. I do not start a game thinking i HAVE TO PLAY SUPP FIELD i simply play out my hand in the best way i can.
Ive actually done a lot playtesting and i like the card and it is not going out right now. You guys talk like 13 year old kiddies when you say its 'uncool' or 'cool'. I see it as a card that has earned a place in my deck. If i notice he is dead too often i wil simply replace the card. Maybe our meta is totally different?

[Guli]

your response is laughable.

If I hadn't playtested it.. I wouldn't have even responded...

god knows how you used the card in your games... maybe you simply don't know how to time/use the card?

[Harlequin]

I think you need to be careful what you say.  Both Rock and I have tested this card.  We've tested it in UW fish, and We even tested it in a mono-white workshop aggro deck.  And I think the delema of the card is that it causes one of two things:

A) you build a deck to support it - and it inevitably weakens the deck.
B) you add it to an existing deck - and it works agianst you as much as them.

These types of problems are extremely hard to notice if you really do not subjectively look at a card.  Trust me I know.  I know -spesifically- from this card.  Its a card that I really wanted to make work, so in my testing I found it amazing!  Because I wanted to.  

The reason Rock calls is "cool" is because its a different answer to a problem the deck already has answer's too.  Null Rod, Stifle, Wasteland, and maybe some graveyard hate is plenty to "answer" all of the activated abilites you listed.  So your answering a problem that doesn't exsist.

[Rock Lee]

The reason Rock calls is "cool" is because its a different answer to a problem the deck already has answer's too.  Null Rod, Stifle, Wasteland, and maybe some graveyard hate is plenty to "answer" all of the activated abilites you listed.  So your answering a problem that doesn't exist.

Harlequin translates me to sound reasonable.

Between STP and Wasteland you answer 75% of the problems "solved" by suppression field, and you also get more DSC answers. Null Rod and Stifle are just icing on the cake. I do like SF's preventative blanket-type answering, but in my opinion it makes the player lose control of the game by relying on it. Permanents that aren't assured to slow down your opponent or rush their gameplan are bad permanents. Null Rod is the only dead-weight permanent I can see running, because its a vise-grip on your opponent, giving you a way of focus-fireing on remaining mana sources ie, lands.

An Example: My opponent is playing Slaver. They run both Tolarian Academy and Library of Alexandria. Suppression field dominates Library, but does nothing to Tolarian. Wasteland however, solves both those answers and several more, all while remaining hidden in your hand until the optimal moment. Slaver would seem to be a GREAT matchup to run SF in, as it affects so many objects (fetches, welder, slaver itself, library) but this is a deck that runs absolutely tons of mana that often comes out quickly, so you need all the mana denial you can get and ultimately, Wasteland is better than SF for mana denial.

I cannot agree more about your claim that fish is about supreme synergy throughout the entire deck. Because we don't have the supreme smoothing effects of TFK or Fish's many components must work seamlessly towards a goal. Wether that be beatdown (WW oriented fish builds with isamaru/savannah lions), hand-stripping (UB builds with mesmeric fiend, duress, cabal therapy), or extra mana denial (Stifle, Wasteland, Null Rod, kataki).

What I found with many builds is that you have to go one route, and if you try to mix and match you end up with a weaker finished product then had you kept it concentrated. My Story, is I tried to incorporate Library of Alexandria and Weathered Wayfarer in a mana-denial oriented build becuase I felt they were two highly synergistic and powerful abilities, but what happened was that the deck stalled too long and my opponents could recover from my denial game. If You've found a great synergy with SF then I'm glad for you, I'll happily face your deck at any tournament.

[Harlequin]

And anything Swords or wasteland wont cover... namely: the mind slaver and trike, you've got null rod for.  with the added benefit of attacking roughly half of thier mana base at the same time.

[Sean Ryan]

IMHO, u/b/w is the optimal configuration for Fish right now.  I recently won a Bazaar with this:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28523.0


@ Guli,

The comments on Suppression Field being weak are right.  You have so many better options.  I would make these immediate changes:

Maindeck:

-3 SField
-1 Rebuild

+4 Duress
+1 Null Rod

-2 Mox emerald/Pearl
-2 Scrubland
-1 Tundra
-1 Sea

+1 Island
+1 Swamp
+1 Fetch
+4 Strip/Wasteland


Not playing Duress is foolish, especially in this metagame.  Null Rod wins you games.  Don't play less than 3 unless you also use Chalices.  Strip/Waste is more effective than SField.  Cutting Control off it's colored mana is huge and works together with Stiffle in your mana denial package.  Having a couple basics for the mirror and Stax is good too.


SB:

-3 Writhered Wretch
-3 Sacred Ground
-3 Stormscape Apprentice
-1 Null Rod

You could run these instead:
+Annul
+Seal of Cleansing
+Darkblast
+Leyline of the Void/Planar Void/Tormods's Crypt

Your maindeck beatz Slaver/Gifts, and has a good game against combo.  Ichorid will destroy you without some hate.  Oath with Swallowers makes Stromscape Apprentice/StP useless, so that matchup must be addressed with preventative measures.  Workshop decks can really hurt you as well if you don't find Kataki quick.  Your sideboard should reflect these poor matchups.  I would also consider running Jitte now that Fish is back on the scene.


   

[Guli]

I came from that decklist you propose. Ive played that for a long time.

After a while i tried field when it came out. I did not like it at start. I replaced it. A while ago i remade this list with SF again. The deck has all the answers it needs altough i played with 4 null rod at start. Somehow i started cutting them and now im at 2 rod. i have 3 Kataki and 2 Null rod, that means i have 5 in total. I know you can't compare these 2 cards (Rod seems stronger) but in some situations Kataki is stronger.

For example a stax player almost emptying his hand with workshop mox whatever. That is the time were i really wanna drop a Kataki and completely wreck his gameplay. Null Rod would be less effective in that situation. When i used 4 Rod i drew to many of Kataki/Rods and although they work well togheter i still think it is overkill. I have brainstorm,demonic,confidants and ancestrall to find my rod if i really need it. With enough pressure/disruption with the rest of the deck i should be able to get that rod in time.
I have a lot 2 drops (powerfull ones) and i really don't wanna duress with this deck. No time. If i only get 1 mana i rather keep it open for a stifle/plow to gain a tempo. But usually i get the 2 mana turn 1 and i am always able to drop something down turn 1.

The rebuild/Rushing R are needed against Chalice 2.

I don't know if you guys played against a deck with SF but it is really annoying when you suddenly cant Waste/Bazar/Fetch. Against a drain deck for example. They really like to drop that fetch land turn 1 to get there island. A lot of decks rely on fetching to create  a stable mana base. If you disrupt that with SF and Stifle and at the same time pressures their artifact mana with 5 other cards they will have a hard time keeping your mages/Confidants/Negators at bay. And a random rebuild can own a lot decks. I want 5 answers against tinker/DSC cause i can't do anything about it once it hits the table.
Every creature adds something to the gameplan

Kataki helps out with the mana denial
Mage helps out with the spell denial
And confidant helps out with my draw/search engine

The negators add speed to the clock

Because the deck is relatively 'slow' i don't want to play a card like wasteland. Dudes believe me i think wasteland is strong, truly. But with SF you also add pressure but also against a lot of other cards. It is more wider. Wasting a land does not give you a tempo win. I want to create a very stable mana base while disrupting his buildup. And not losing a landdrop for killing a land.

Against belcher what is that wasteland going to do anyway?( I rather have SF at that moment.) You need Force/Null Rod/Stifle/Mage and SB you got believer and more rods

@ Sean Ryan

nice decklist, i use to have the same with some slight changes here and there. I understand why you prefer that list. I even want to admit it is a little stronger than my new attempt. But i believe SF has potential. Still i miss those duress.

[Guli]

I want to add something. I understand your points. But are you guys saying that Suppression Field has no place in Fish decks? I think that is the main question. Or maybe my list is totally wrong and SF doesn't belong in my list. Are there other fish decklists that make this card more of a bomb? Or simply NO, not in fish

[Harlequin]

Supression Field does not add enough to fish.  It blankets over sollutions the deck already has.  Why supress a land, creature, or artifact when you can waste, swords, or null rod it instead?  That blanket effect does not fully cover the scope of waste, swords, and null rod... because as mentioned it does nothing against say: Tolarian, DSC, or Artifact mana.  So your still forced to run things like null rod and swords.  The point being:

You dillute your real threats for a more general soft threat. 

I won't be absolutist about the card, but as it stands... there are no builds of fish that would benefit from this card.  Building a deck that uses this card sucessfully would have to show me a common situation where this card is superior to running the afor mentioned control.  Also keep in mind that on top of waste, swords, and rod, most fish decks have stiffles to fill in those holes.

[Guli]

I can't say i disagree

I am always open for suggestions or changes if they are forwarded with manners