Worse than Fish reloaded

[Rittler]

Hi @ all!

Since I'm a great fan of the U/G variants of Fish, I keep on building and testing such decks.
I now came to a list with a solid basis and some questionable slots around it, which I would like you to help me on.
So here is my actual list:

3x Basking Rootwalla
4x Wild Mongrel
3x Ninja of the Deep Hours
3x Waterfront Bouncer

4x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Remand

3x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Aether Vial

1x Sol Ring
1x Mox Emerald
2x Island
1x Forest
4x Tropical Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Mishra's Factory

This is the actual list I'm toying around with.
Coming to the questionable slots now, which are:
 - Sol Ring
This guy doesn't seem as if it would fit into any fish deck, but it helped me quite well in dropping those Jittes and Chalice early in the game. I'm still not sure if it is the right decision to include it.

 - Remand
This card seems to be bad on paper since it doesn't bring the countered spell into your opponents graveyard, but it's actually a great speed-boost. I'm really not sure about that slot and thinking about playing Stifle or even Extract in that slot.

- Standstill
Further I'm not sure if my draw-engine is good enough, or if I should play Standstill instead of Brainstorm. Brainstorm is just a card which saved my ass quite often in a counterwar, where it digs for that Daze/Force you need, which Standstill doesn't. On the other hand Standstill gives you 3 more cards and you really need lots of cards in that deck and has great synergy with Aether Vial.

My Meta is dominated by Oath and Storm-Combo in the form of Gifts and TPS. There are several Aggro Decks, like R/G or other Fish-Variants, so I build up this sideboard:

1x Mystical Tutor
1x Tinker
1x Darksteel Collosus
4x Ground Seall
2x Energy Flux
3x Seasinger
3x Naturalize


Tinker-DSC helps a lot versus fast Aggro and the rest should be selfexplanatory. I'm wondering if I should replace the Tinker-DSC-Mystical with some other cards...

So now I'm waiting for your answers to improve my deck for the next tournament.

Thx...

hirudo

[roberts91rom]

Mana Crypt>Sol Ring
Mox Sapphire>Island
Basking Rootwalla>Mishra's Factory
Jitte>Aggro
Brainstorm=Best Draw Spell Other Than Recall
Time Walk>Nothing

I'm not even gonna touch your Sideboard. Naturalize is all I needed to see.

[Pitlord]

OK, since that last post wasn't really all that helpful and I actually quite enjoy playing WTF because it was my first vintage deck, I will give you some of my opinions.

First, drop jittes. They seem good on paper, but really suck. They are way too slow to function and are mana hogs. After playing without them for a while I really liked being able to actually play cards like remand and mana leak.

Second, DO NOT DROP BRAINSTORM. Standstill is OK, but is situational. Brainstorm is a great inclusion and lets you smooth out your draws, but the number could come down to 2 or 3.

Also, without jitte, sol ring is unnessecary and should become mox sapphire, which should have been an auto include anyways.

Everything else looks OK, but I would consider dropping the factories for a more stable mana base, and definitly add in another rootwalla. They are a little weak, but having a turn 2 ninja is a big deal in a deck like this that doesn't really have a draw engine. Also, consider testing the new trygon predator. He tops off the curve quite nicely at 1UG, evades, and has a killer ability. He is probably going to be the only thin keeping green in fish for a while. He is like the green confidant for fish decks, an auto-include almost all the time.

As for the remand, they are a solid slot and I would actually consider dropping 1 daze for another remand. WTF can deal lots of damage quickly, so the tempo helps even more with this deck than other fish builds.

Also, 4 chalice is a little redundant, especially if you are running full set of moxes (which you probably should be).

My propsed changes look like:
-1 daze
-1 chalice
-3 jitte
-1 sol ring
-4 factory
+4 moxes
+1 rootwalla
+3 trygon predator
+1 remand
+1 Island

[Rittler]

Well, if I had a full set of power I would definately play it, but since I only own 1 Mox Emerald and 1 Ancestral Recall these are the only ones included in the deck.

Concerning Jitte...welll I haven't made any bad expieriences with them yet, they are just a house against Aggro and the give you a much faster clock and removal against Welder and Bob and crucial lifepoints in the TPS-matchup. But if you say so, I'll drop em and replace em with Predators. And of course you are right that Sol Ring is useless without Jitte.

Well, concerning the Factorys, I would definately never touch them...they are soo good Ninjitsu-Enablers and very good blockers against random Aggro. Surely they are not quite favorable for the manabase but they make your Deck work faster.

[Pitlord]

OK, if you onyl own 2 pieces of power and are playing in a no proxy enviroment, I can understand playing just those, as well as your desire to play WTF as opposed to a more modern fish build.

I also hope that you managed to fit in another rootwalla and another ninja, because having 4 turn 1 plays to poqwer out 1 of 4 ninjas is crucial when you need a draw engine like you do with this deck. If need be, I would drop a chalice and the previously stated sol ring for another rootwalla and another ninja. Also, I continue to believe that 2 daze 3 remand is the best coutner set up for this build of fish.


As another note, have you tested stifle instead of remand? I play them as my non-FoW counters in UWB fish and absolutly love them because they can randomly own so many things that shouldn't get owned so easily. They might not be as good in a more tempo-based build such as this, but they could always be worth testing.

[god_of_war]

the predator rocks it can easily eat up to 3 artifacts. i think you should maindeck the tinker-colossus plan. and add in the factories and standstills. cut the brainstorm count to 3 and replace the remand with main deck stifle

[GrandpaBelcher]

Has anyone looked at Coiling Oracle in a deck like this?  Obviously it's a 1/1 for two-mana, which is crap (although so is Waterfront Bouncer, come to think of it).  But it replaces itself immediately, and it can give a huge tempo boost if it reveals a land.  Plus, except against Black where an opponent can Duress/Therapy a revealed card out of your hand, sometimes revealing a counter or other answer will delay an opponent longer since they have to play around it.  Even better, Oracle with Ninjas is near disgusting.  I haven't tested this myself, yet, but I have been thinking about it, and I think the possible benefits in tempo might outweigh the drawback of being an overcosted 1/1.

UG Fish seems like it could be a strong choice now since it could be more easily be tuned to beat the other Fish decks that will become popular in the metagame.

[Darkenslight]

3x Basking Rootwalla (+1)
4x Wild Mongrel
3x Ninja of the Deep Hours(+1)
3x Waterfront Bouncer

4x Brainstorm (-1)
1x Ancestral Recall

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Remand

3x Umezawa's Jitte (-3)
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Aether Vial (-1)

1x Sol Ring (-1)
1x Mox Emerald
2x Island
1x Forest (+1)
4x Tropical Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland(-1)
1x Strip Mine
4x Mishra's Factory(-1)

1x Mystical Tutor
1x Tinker
1x Darksteel Colossus  - Move to maindeck
4x Ground Seal (-2)
2x Energy Flux
3x Seasinger
3x Naturalize
+3 Trygon Predator
+2 Arcane Lab

...Justr a random guess.  Reasoning later.

[Pitlord]

Coiling oracle seems OK in theory, but the idea of playing WTF over any other fish deck is how aggressive it is. Coiling Oracle adds a 1/1 for 2 to the creature list, which is very bad. Bouncer makes the cut because he deals with blockers and DSC, as well as providing a madness outlet for rootwalla. Oracle is decent for a very small tempo boost, and is solid with ninja, but the problem with adding them is that you need to drop another, much more aggressive creature which detracts from the decks stradegy.

@the last list, this seems reasonable, depending on your metagame, except for a few things. Do not drop an aether vial, they are terrific. Dropping a chalice is much better, because seeing multiples is really lame. Seeing multiple aether vials sucks too, but vial is much more important in such an aggressive deck. Mystical tutor is worse than brainstorm, even with DSC//tinker mainboarded. Also, mainbaord arcane lab seems like alittle bit of overkill for combo to me, but if combo is basically your entire meta, you should either consider them or, more likely, another deck. Also, it seems like one of my major points I keep posting is to remove a daze for another remand. This may seem trivial, but in such an aggressive deck, everything being a time wlak is a huge part of your game plan.

[mmathias]

Hello all,

I have been playing UG fish for some time now, trying out different builds and cards to find a configuration that suits me best. I started with a list similar to the one above, but have since taken another direction, which I haven't yet been able to test throughout, but so far has been working out great.

First thing I dropped were Vials. They always seemed better on paper than in action. I'm much happier dropping a creature first turn, followed by second turn Ninja. Vial sets this back a turn. Dropping creatures under counters only makes a difference against drain decks, and my meta is not full of them. Vials are also terrible to draw midgame. I have added Flying Men to replace them and to enable fast Ninjas. Playing without Vials I need to tap out more often, therefore I have added two Misdirections to my list.

Second thing I got rid of were the Chalices and Jittes. The only number you can set Chalice is zero, and playing in non-proxy environment it's a dead card in half the games playing against non-powered decks. It's just not worth having four dead cards in half the games, when in the other half it's only good when dropped early enough. Jitte is good, but costs four to get active. Against other beat down decks it would be excellent, but then in half the matches it's just too slow or doesn't do enough. I do still have them in my sideboard.

The biggest change I have made is splashing black for Cabal Therapies. With adding a third colour I also removed Mishra's Factories, nine gray lands in three colour deck is just asking for trouble. The biggest reasons for this splash were Dazes. Daze just isn't good. Any better player can easily play around them and sometimes when you could hit something with it setting back a land hurts you more than countering a bait spell. First I had Duresses splashed, but therapy is more powerful. With the Flying Men and Rootwallas you have cheap flashback if needed, and following Remand with Therapy is sometimes a cantrip Time Walk. With Bouncers, and two Echoing Truths I'm playing, you can guarantee yourself a hit with Therapy. The black splash also opens up sideboard options against Oath with Edicts.

Another reason for the splash is two Skeletal Scryings. It is the best draw spell I could find for this deck and so far two has been the correct number. Drawing three cards at instant speed is good, refilling your hand after dropping a Mongrel and forcing a spell. I'm also playing Gush. It combined with Scrying you have the ability to make Mongrel lethal almost out of the blue. Flashbacking Therapy beforehand you don't need to throw the game away by going all in.

As for the new cards, I really like Coiling Oracle, but I have a feeling it's not strong enough. I have better things to do on turn two. Perhaps I'll test it someday, but first I want to try Trygon Predator out. The ability is strong, but so is the casting cost. The card has potential, but that's all I can say for it right now.

I might have posted my deck list, but I'm not currently home and I don't want to make a mistake should I not remember it correctly by heart.

[Pitlord]

First of all, splashing for black and not adding confidant is ridiculous. Confidant is insane, especially in a deck that needs a draw engine like fish. Also, flying men is not really a good card in a proxy meta. His lack of abilities sucks and with access to proxies, you can play all the moxes and enable a practically guaranteed turn 1 drop. Also, without vial or chalice, and adding more creatures, you have essentially tried to make this deck very aggressive. Even Shop aggro and goblins run disruption, and they have faster clocks than this as well. Having 10-11 counters might be good, but when you have to cast beats, you cannot try to have a clock down and have counter mana up all the time. That is why vial is good. Also, misdirection is not very good in a non-proxy meta, especially one with no drain decks because all it can do is win the counter war.

[Kieranwolf]

Mmm, black splash good.

You need disruption, sure, but FoW works well. Two colors make it much easier to have enough blue cards for that, while three may be a stretch. If fish can be URB, though, why no t GRB?

Have you thought about Life from the Loam to go with your strip effects and Mongrels?

Here's an interesting, if outdated tidbit: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=25572.0

In case anyone was interested, I ended up with two cycle lands in my latest build, with a basic swamp and forest and three bayou.

That is all.

[Rittler]

Well, the "Big-Man-Plan" was once in the maindeck, but I decided to exclude it to the sideboard, since it only improved matchups that weren't that hard to win either, like crappy Aggro and Control. What reasons do you find to include it?
The next tourney is on saturday and I think I'll go for something like this:

4x Basking Rootwalla
4x Wild Mongrel
4x Ninja of the Deep Hours
3x Waterfront Bouncer

4x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall

4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Remand

4x Chalice of the Void
4x Aether Vial

1x Mox Emerald
2x Island
2x Forest
4x Tropical Island
4x Polluted Delta
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Mishra's Factory

1x Mystical Tutor
1x Tinker
1x Darksteel Colossus
2x Ground Seal
2x Energy Flux
3x Seasinger
3x Trygon Predator
2 Arcane Lab

This seems quite solid to me. Tinker-DSC stays in the side, since I won't need it often in my meta. Arcane Lab is quite a good inclusion for the side, since the decks that won those tourneys so far, were Gifts and TPS. The Predator will be my tech-weapon against staxx, which is quite weak in our environment (like 2 Staxx Players at a 40-60 man tourney). Seasinger and Bouncer seem to be my only real answers to Oath, which might be not enough, since this has been the hardest matchup so far.
Also I wonder if there should be Jittes in the side for good Aggro, like Food Chain or R/G, which I happen to see sometimes.
Perhapes this metagamebreakdown could be helpful:

I guess it we be something like this:

30% Combo (mainly Gifts and TPS)
40% Oath
15% Fish (mainly U/W)
15% Aggro (such as Sui Blonde, R/G Beats, Affinity and Food Chain)

Thanks for all answers soo far and sorry for me not replying till now, but I was on a trip to a TOOL-Concert, which was very, very, very hot...

[escribano]

I´m only going to say 2 or 3 thinks.

First of all; Sol Ring must Be Main In. Maybe in your main only mishra´s, jitte and chalice (remember of 2 against oath) will thanks it, but your sideboard will run faster, really faster with this.

Second: Remand. I hasn´t really play this speel, but I think you have better options. If your postion in the game is not better than your oponent I think this card will not really help you. I want to say, if you have a dog (mongrel) hittint your opponent remand will be ok, but if you are on the bad side, or in a tie situation, when you really need yor deck works, this is a bad draw.

I think it would be better stifle (wanderfull against 1st turn fetchs) or antoher kind of counter, like annul or spell snare, than can be a really good metagame call.


Third. Only to say 3 thinks. If you think that metagame needs you put dsc in sideboard, cause a lot of beatdown decks, you also must add personal tutor.

Going home I´ve remembered one more thing. Mishra´s must be in. I don´t speak about sinergy with ninjas that is obviusly, I speak about the problem that almost everydeck with drains has with this beautifull land. If the paly is fast this is not good, neither so bad, but if the play keeps enought this is a really a kill condition. Against beat decks this is a good blocker. Only 1 think, if you play 3 color you musn´t play mishra´s cause not to play color lands in first 3, or at least 2 turns makes your game go too much slow.

Salu2

[Pitlord]

I think thatif you are expecting a lot of oath in the meta, predators might be worth including in the mainboard. They destroy the oath itself, which is a great boon. The only problem is what to cut, because this list seems prety tight as it is.

Also, with lots of combo and oath, sideboarding a set of extracts might be pretty good. Not a lot of people will play around extract anymore, allowing you to steal games randomly when they onyl leave in 2 angels or a single tendrils.

[Kieranwolf]

Seasinger and Bouncer seem to be my only real answers to Oath, which might be not enough, since this has been the hardest matchup so far.

Um, Bouncer is pretty hot, yeah. Seasinger too. But I'd still try and find room for some actual bounce spells in the maindeck. Chain of Vapor is pretty hot right now, and Echoing Truth/Rushing River could work.

Those all have one intrinsic problem, though. They target, so if Oath brings in Simic Sky-Swallower, you die. If you're expecting 40% Oath, why not find some Curfews to throw in the side? You bring them in for say, the bouncers and something else (if running four), and keep the Chains/Truth/River to bounce Oath when you need to.

Your Oath opponent might not expect you to play Curfew on them, so you could  use that surprise factor to turn the tables if they happen to think that SSS will auto-win the matchup for them. Just watch out for those good Oath players. They're pretty scary.

[Rittler]

I think the idea of some Curfews in the side for the Oath Matchup is very hot and since I think the Predator is actually too slow against Oath and since Staxx is pretty weak in my meta, I'll cut those for the Curfews.

So the momentuous sideboard looks like this:

1x Mystical Tutor
1x Tinker
1x Darksteel Colossus
2x Ground Seal
2x Energy Flux
3x Seasinger
3x Curfew
2 Arcane Lab

Perhapes 2 Ground Seals might not be enough against Dragon which is played quite frequently (like 8 of 40 players) and perhapes I'll do a counter configuration like:

4x FoW
2x Daze
2x Remand
2x Stifle

What would you say?

Concerning Extract, what would you take out for some sideboard Extracts?

[Pitlord]

As for the counter base listed above, it looks solid but I will continue to say that daze sucks. I have never liked the card, and it has always been probably the weakest counter ever for me. With that in mind, i would drop the dazes for 1 more of each stifle and remand, because both are terrific tempo gaining counters.

As for the sideboard extracts, I would drop the mystical tutor, because if your only way of winning is tutoring tinker--->DSC, then you are probably going to lose anyways. Also, if stax is non-existent, simply drop the energy flux, and go to 2 curfews because extract and curfew both provide oath hate. There is your set of extracts in the board, erady to own things with minimal win conditions.

[Rittler]

Since I made only good experiences with Daze, I'll leave it in. But I have one last question before I go to the tourney tomorrow...

Do you think, that in the given meta, this Deck would do better than WTF?

4x Infernal Contract
3x Cruel Bargain
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
3x Diabolic Intent
2x Ornithopter
4x Phyrexian Walker
4x Shield Sphere
4x Culling the Weak
4x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
3x Tendrils of Agony
1x Necropotence
3x Cabal Therapy
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Echoing Truth
1x Mox Diamond
1x Chrome Mox
1x Lotus Petal
3x Land Grant
1x Underground Sea
3x Bayou
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp

SB:
1x Tropical Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Island
1x Tinker
1x Darksteel Colossus
3x Xantid Swarm
1x Chain of Vapor
2x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Echoing Truth
1x Cabal Therapy
2x Massacre

I'm really unsure about what to play, because I know both decks and made good experiences with both decks and am not a good enough meta player to decide which of them'll do better in the given meta. I mean, the combo deck is very fast, doesn't die to hate like Duress or Counters or Chalice (at least not quite often) and it's only difficult matchup is Staxx which is weak in my meta. It doesn't have a safe game, though, which means it sometimes fizzles or is taken out by a simple Wasteland or dies to some cards, such as Arcane Lab or Meddling Mage (I never drew that Echoing Truth when I needed it) and has no Counterbackup, while TPS and Gifts do. The WTF on the other hand has a quite safe game, I never died because of a bad manabase, it has the Counters and can also deal with every kind of deck. It has a slightly unfavorable matchup against Oath, which I'll try to compensate through 3 Bouncers, 3 Seasingers and 3 Curfew. I never tested this configuration before, so I can't say if it works. It has good weapons against most decks in the maindeck (Chalice, Stifle, Counter, Bouncer...) and can provide a quite fast clock (Mongrel). Also I can't think of any card it actually dies to. Also if I can get the Extracts (I don't own any myself but a friend does) I'll try them in the proposed configuration.

Perhapes I have to add that I played both decks in that meta before and made 3rd with WTF and 4th with Tendrils K.I., not a huge difference and I might have been 1st with both decks if my opponents hadn't been that lucky. (With WTF he topdecked that Timewalk for the win - if he wouldn't have drawn into it, I would have won on my turn. With Tendrils I played against Gifts and it was the 3rd game, I was on the draw and had a 1st turn kill in hand but he also had that 1st turn kill in hand )

[roberts91rom]

Oath brings in Simic Sky Swallower. You bring in targeting removal.

...

.....

.......

Just run ways to stop oath, because you will never stop their creatures in UG. As to which deck to play. KITT dies to chalice@1, but WTF doesn't run answers to anything in your meta. Take the combo deck because WTF is better played in a meta with no combo and little oath. It does have a decent game against Gifts and oath pre-board isn't terrible. Take the combo deck.

[Rittler]

Well, I have to admit - you were right. I took WTF cause it is my pet-deck, but I lost to nearly everything. I went 2 - 4, it was the worst tournament I ever played. I lost to Oath, Staxx, Birdshit and some U/B/G/W - Fishy thing, which eventually won the tourny.
So next time I'll either splash black for a better draw-engine and Duress, or just go for something else.

Thx for your help though, and this does not mean that I'll now stop working on WTF, in fact I just worked out a new U/G/B - List:

4x Wild Mongrel
4x Basking Rootwalla
2x Ninja of the Deep Hours
4x Dark Confidant
2x Waterfront Bouncer

4x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall

4x Force of Will
2x Daze
4x Duress
2x Stifle

2x Diabolic Edict
4x Null Rod

4x Polluted Delta
3x Tropical Island
2x Underground Sea
1x Bayou
2x Forest
2x Island
1x Swamp
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Mox Emerald

Sideboard:
2x Diabolic Edict
2x Darkblast
3x Arcane Laboratory
2x Energy Flux
3x Ground Seal
3x Extract

I think such a deck would do better because of the superior drawengine Bob provides. I also realized that Null Rod > Chalice. Duress also is way better than most "free counters" and the Diabolic Edicts are good answers against Oath creatures and DSC.

What do you think?

[Kieranwolf]

Black has lots of answers that green and blue don't have in any supply. Untargeted creature removal (Edict and Innocent blood are my favorites), draw (Bob, Scrying, Night's Whisper), Disruption (The suite of Duress, Cabal Therapy, and possibly Hymn to Tourach, as well as Withered Wretch and the two graveyard-eating Void enchantments), and fast threats (Negator and Shade).

Adding the creature removal probably helps a lot, as well as drawing more cards. The problem against Oath I see, though, is the fact that you have to have a creature on the board to win.

Green gives you access to enchantment removal, which is going to work better at keeping Oath off the table after game one than bounce in most cases. Simplify might be the cheapest way to kill Oath, while Naturalize is much broader but more expensive and may improve your Stax matchup as well.

Otherwise I'm mostly out of ideas for now.