[Deck] Presenting the new UBW aggro Control

[Guli]

(got to bottom if you do not want to read, there is a decklist)
Don't tell me he is just good for SideBoard. Don't tell me he is hard to keep on board. He isn't. Sure you are not going to play him turn 1. But who said you need him that fast? He is a wonderfull drop when you actually start needing that graveyard hate. This means you do not always want him in opening hand but still fast enough. How does 3 copies sound?
Of course i am talking about Jötun Grunt from Coldsnap. http://www.mtgsalvation.com/spoiler/coldsnap/

He fills you weak holes. He protects against Darkblast/strip locks/big Y Will/Ichorid/ Welder abusing/. And he adds a clock. Sure its not Negator but 4 damage is still fast. At most its going to be 1 turn slower but the benefits/disruption it provides is well worth it.

I played about 30 games now with this guy and he won games. Especially against bazaar decks. Gifts has big problems as well when this guy hits the board.
The only problem was when W-shop aggro/Metalworker kinda decks got some board control. It was hard to break it.

The thing is i am not going to let this creature take the point. He is not the best creaturee i am running. Here is the creature base:

4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours (new for my list)
3 Jötun Grunt


Ninja of the Deep Hours! I am and oldschool gamer. But i had a big break. So when i was playing this guy was not printed yet. And i came back to the community a couple of months ago. So for me the Ninja is kinda exciting and new. The fact is the ninja has synergy with EVERY other creature in my deck.
But the question remains. What about Negators? is it possible to squeeze in at least 2-3 Negators?

Drawing your card from confidant, attacking with it using ninja to draw another and recasting the confidant is a great way to fill your hand when things got slowed down (wich happens a lot).

Duress is a great card. And in this deck its even more great. It has synergy with Meddling Mage and Jötun Grunt. Im telling you this deck is really strong!
I had situations were i played Duress, bounces back the mage (ninja), draw a card, replay the mage naming something he has in hand. Sure you need 5 mana for this (turn3-4-5) but you totally disrupt his hand and get 2 bears. If you think you have the time you can spread this in 2 turns remembering what he had in his hand.

For control/disruption i am running

4 Force of Will
3 Duress
3 Stifle
4 Chalice of the Void


I prefer Chalice in this deck. Null Rod is a bomb but its another 2 drop. With chalice i can play around with and drop turn 1 wich is faster. I don't run full moxes so i don't mind going with a turn 1 Chalice 0. Also this deck can play around a Chalice 1. A well chosen Mage and Chalice 1 can shut down a lot decks. Also i have the deadly Chalice @ 3. Without the negators i have no spell for 3 mana left in the deck. Though i will be honost, i am not 100% sure Chalice should be added.

Utility and Power
4 Brainstorm (insane card)
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

the mana base:

3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Black lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal (increases chances for a 2 mana turn 1, ->confidant)

3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
(fetches,wasteland,strip also have synergy with Jötun Grunt)
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 swamp
1 Scrubland

23 mana sources


So what does this deck do? A lot of the times i feel like i am simply playing Control. Drawing and searching a lot for more control,removal,disruption. I believe this deck has a very good draw engine. Matchup against oath can be rough game 1. Still there is Duress,Mage,Plow. Worst case scenario is a turn 1 oath with a token. But that does not happend that often. So the sideboard should run ant-ioath stuff.

3 Seal of Cleansing (oath,stax)
3 Sacred Ground (stax)
3 Stormscape Apprentice (oath,DSC)
3 Annul (oath)
1 Swords to Plowshares (oath,aggro,DSC)
2 Darkblast (welder,aggro)

I don't see a lot combo here. If i would i put in more stifle,and side in Arcane Lab.

Anyway to make the list more clear i ll post it again for the people who just want to see the decklist.


UBW Control, aggro ₂₀₀₆

3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Black lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Lotus Petal

3 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 swamp
1 Scrubland

4 Force of Will
4 Duress +1
3 Stifle
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Annul
1 Rushing River
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Meddling Mage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
3 Waterfront Bouncer
3 Jötun Grunt

SB

3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Sacred Ground
3 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Annul
1 Swords to Plowshares

[Rock Lee]

I like the jotun Grunt. ALOT. he's the kind of monsterous meat Fish needs at an econo cost with a sweeping threat. For all the reasons you said and a few more. I'd be wary of reshuffling your fetches back in, as you might want their passive thinning effect to increase your "answer" draw percentage. Ultimately though, love the grunt, will probably play 3, ifnot 4. Rarely do I see his "negative" aspect killing him. if you're running a recurring gaea's blessing you might want to consider running mystical/vamp. This deck won't be hurt as much by the card disadvantage with its insane card advantage engine, and recurring your broken cards like Time Walk could be game breaking.

Confidant, Ninja, Mage. Can't argue with those bad boys. 4 different nice 2 mana cost cost creatures, SOLID.


As you have plenty of 2 drops, your 1 CMC spells are key.

• I would up your duress count to 4. Fish can afford to, and strives to, go 1 for 1 with most decks until they start drawing a bajesusload of cards. Seems seeing more of these can't be bad.
• 3 Stifle is great. I've dabbled with 4 and found it excessive. Stifle can be dead, Duress rarely is. With 2 you cry every time your opponent fetches as you shake your deck to have the stifles float to the top. 3 is juuust right, like Goldilocks.
• I've always gone with 3-4 STP. Often going to 4, as I hate losing to a DSC, and I like being "welderbane". Also Fish has a poor matchup against any deck that could call themselves aggro.

I've never tried only running 4 Strip affects. I've won too many games from 3 strip affects in one game to make me try 4, but I'll test it a bit.

I would honestly drop Chalice for 3 Null Rod, as you run 3 moxen, and chalice doesn't beat good players, it does beat really bad ones however. Also you'll never drop chalice for 3 unless you're winning 10 times since Tuesday.

Blue Card count is pretty low for FoW, but you still have to be able to say "NO" turn 0.

SB comments:
Most oath builds run protection creatures of some sort specifically for fighting fish. I would go with the annul/seal of cleansings and leave it at that, dropping stormscape (nothing worst then having them oath up a protection creature that the stormscape assisted in, only to have it be untappable). Also Annul provides great cross-deck answers (staxx).

You already have graveyard disruption, but I've been an avid fan of Leyline of the Void lately. it often means GG against Combo, as your other disruption will just tear them apart, however it does mean 4 spots on the SB, which could be valuable BeB spots. (BeB is needed imo, as pyroclasm = gg, any form of The Mountain Wins will turn your bears into rugs, and anyone who runs a Volc will be siding in ReBs galore)



Overall, seems bangin. ^_^

[The Witch-King]

Rock Lee is right, Oath will bring in Sky Swallowers which don't care about your plows/stromscapes. Furthermore i think you need at least 1 maindeck answer to chalice at 2, because it really makes your deck cry.. 11 out of 14 creatures cost 2 and the other 3 want to have another on the board to swap with.. I think Rushing River might be your best option, although Chain of Vapor can be considered, but them bouncing ninjas kinda sucks.. Echoing Truth is obviously no option, cause it costs 2.

[Harlequin]

I think a natural Choice with the Grunt might be Curfew on the main.  I think the key to makeing Grunt successful is your ability to reset his cummulative upkeep count.  2+2N per turn (from the same GY) is not going to be easy.  It basically means your going to get 2 or 3* swings outa him.  Which is nothing to scoff at but also may not win you the game. 
* - At 3 swings you've removed 8 cards from one yard, and 4 from another... not an -every game- stratigy.

Curfew is likely going to fit this deck like a glove.  Simultainous prolonging the life of the Grunt AND answering DSC, Angels, and Simic Sky Swallower. 

If you opt for Leylines in the board, you should probably go 1 for 1 on something for your Grunts to become.  for creatures that bone combo, Glow Rider has potential ... but ultimately will be too late.  I think leylines are not going to be synergistic with the deck.  I vote running something else that gives you turn 1 answers like Orim's Chant.

[Rock Lee]

I think a natural Choice with the Grunt might be Curfew on the main.  I think the key to makeing Grunt successful is your ability to reset his cummulative upkeep count.  2+2N per turn (from the same GY) is not going to be easy.  It basically means your going to get 2 or 3* swings outa him.  Which is nothing to scoff at but also may not win you the game. 
* - At 3 swings you've removed 8 cards from one yard, and 4 from another... not an -every game- stratigy.

well 3 swings is 2 cards from 1 yard, 4 from one, and 6 from one. A 3-of might be best for this guy. Perhaps slapping curfew in the place of STP might be some savvy tech, also it helps your blue card count. GG against aggro again though..

I think this version of fish is far more aggressive and suits Guli's style, which seems aggro with disruption versus some of my prefered fish builds which were lockout control with an aggro win. With this build, and in particular after the changes I suggested, you're burning through low mana cost spells or sacrificial lands, so you'll have the requisite food to eat out of your own graveyard assuming your opponents haven't been casting any spells.

[Harlequin]

I think a natural Choice with the Grunt might be Curfew on the main.  I think the key to makeing Grunt successful is your ability to reset his cummulative upkeep count.  2+2N per turn (from the same GY) is not going to be easy.  It basically means your going to get 2 or 3* swings outa him.  Which is nothing to scoff at but also may not win you the game. 
* - At 3 swings you've removed 8 cards from one yard, and 4 from another... not an -every game- stratigy.

well 3 swings is 2 cards from 1 yard, 4 from one, and 6 from one. A 3-of might be best for this guy. Perhaps slapping curfew in the place of STP might be some savvy tech, also it helps your blue card count. GG against aggro again though..

I think this version of fish is far more aggressive and suits Guli's style, which seems aggro with disruption versus some of my prefered fish builds which were lockout control with an aggro win. With this build, and in particular after the changes I suggested, you're burning through low mana cost spells or sacrificial lands, so you'll have the requisite food to eat out of your own graveyard assuming your opponents haven't been casting any spells.

Right... unless its a multiplayer game.. thats going to come out 8 from one yard and 4 from the other (total)... unless your fighting a dredge deck or some deck running some savage discard.  Actually I guess you could go 6 and 6... but that means you have to go 2 and 4 from the same yard in a row, and if thats the case its probably late game anyhow.

Something far easier is play; 2, swing, curfew; play, 2 swing; 4, swing.  This gives you 3 swings for 2--6 or 4--4.  All in all more favorable than 4--8 or 6--6.  Not to mention you get the added bonus of bouncing a creature. 

I guess my main point is that this guy is not a "clock" hes just a really really big bad-ass ball lightning.  Hes got his 8 or 12 damage then hes out.  Don't get me wrong, thats totally savage.... but hes not a negator or Juggernaught where your opponent has to answer the threat on the board in FOUR turns or loose.  This guy hinders your opponent while punching wich is definately good, but again hes not something that reads "answer me or else you loose in X turns" unless its late game.  To fit him properly into the deck I think Ninjas, Curfew, and maybe even waterfront bouncer are needed to make this guy REALLY threatening.

[BreathWeapon]

Ok, I see a dangerous line of thinking here.

Instead of using Jotun Grunt as a suplimental fish creature, you guys are building your deck around him. Yes, Jotun Grunt is a good card, but he isn't worth dictating the other slots in the MD or SB. The speed of his removal is a serious issue, as Gifts and Slaver can easily play around him, Dragon and Ichorid have SB options and Tendrils and Smokestack are thrilled to see him instead of Kataki. He isn't the kind of card you can rely upon at the center of your deck.

[Guli]

Ok, I see a dangerous line of thinking here.

Instead of using Jotun Grunt as a suplimental fish creature, you guys are building your deck around him. Yes, Jotun Grunt is a good card, but he isn't worth dictating the other slots in the MD or SB. The speed of his removal is a serious issue, as Gifts and Slaver can easily play around him, Dragon and Ichorid have SB options and Tendrils and Smokestack are thrilled to see him instead of Kataki. He isn't the kind of card you can rely upon at the center of your deck.

I agree about the part 'trying to build the deck around him'. It is not the right way to abuse him.

However, you said about gifts and slaver being able to play around him. That is not entirely true. In my games against those matchups (even though my opponents werent that good) i had  pretty good games. When my engine starts rolling it is very hard to keep up for them. A turn 1 confidant happened occasionally (thank you lotus petal!) or a stifle gaining a HUGE advantage in tempo.

To be honost the grunt is kinda the creature i want to draw against gifts or slaver. He completely slows their plans so badly i have an easy game resulting in the inevitable win for me. They can not afford to let a confidant survive. They can not afford to let Mage/Grunt do their thing. There are so many semi-threats (i agree none of them are BOMB, GAME ENDING but...) that they can't stop them all. The thing is they try to stop them and end up empty handed and totally disoriented while i keep beating casting stuff until it overwhelms them.

[Guli]

About the grunt and some other stuff.

I advice you guys not to count how many turns it will be i n play. You can NOT predict it. There is already a Maindeck answer if you wanna give antoher 4 damage, Stifle. Or use the Ninja and recast the grunt. Besided, in my experience with him until now i was suprised how fast those graves fill. The trick is to time him correct. Not too soon not too late!
And there are times that he comes a bit late (3 copies). I look at the amount of cards in the graves and i pray for the grunt :p

I am considering 2 Darkblast Maindeck. There were to many games were i wanted Darkblast. It will also improve my matchup against slaver and aggro while having synergy with the grunt. I don't know what to cut. Chalice wasn't that great most of the times. In my inital post i said i was doubting this card. I can't set it at 2. Setting it to 3 takes time and by then that tinker/will should be stopped already or an answer should be ready in your hand. 0 and 1 are the only viable settings. 1 is for specific situations. It hurts me a lot aswell. Chalice was a dead card many times after the opening. I do NOT like dead cards. Nobody does.

-4 Chalice of the Void is probably my next change. This opens a lot of slots in the deck!

I am thinking of adding back rushing river. I even think it should be auto included against a potential chalice 2. Also great against Tinker/DSC,Oath,It can be pitched to FOW early game, rebuild isn't that bad either. However this time i will opt for 2 RR's. I can plaly around with this deck untill Coldsnap becomes legal. Then it must be ready for tournament play.

+2 Darkblast
+2 Rushing River

[Guli]

The sideboard is really bad. I admit i have been lazy

But i should also playtest a lot to see what my really weak matchups are. We can speculate all day long but the fact stands that our specs can be wrong. I ll try this..

2 BeB
3 Sacred Ground
3 Annul
3 Seal of Cleansing
4 Leyline of the Void (not sure if this is needed, does it really stops combo? I hate to add more grave hate filling up important SD slots)

Man i think i really need help with the SB 

[BreathWeapon]

Here is a list I just managed to split a Sapphire with,

4 Force of Will
4 Voidmage Prodigy

4 Meddling Mage
4 Duress

4 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Chalice of the Void

2 Swords to Plowshares

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
2 Island

SB

4 Annul
4 Seal of Cleansing
4 Planar Void
2 Swords to Plowshares
1 Darkblast

I devestated the entire field going through 5 matches undefeated, and took it through the Top 8 to tie with Oath. The creature base is amazing, as every creature has 2 power and a game swinging ability. Voidmage Prodigy was a necessary evil to have a sufficient blue count, 2 power creatures and gave the deck a grip on the board in the mid and late game. Between Meddling Mage, Duress, Kataki and Chalice combo was dead out of the gates more often than not, and the Planar Voids added insult to injury out of the SB.

Demonic Tutor is amazing, it either gets Ancestral, Walk, Chalice, Strip, Swords or the SB Blast. The tempo loss is minimal, and being able to drop land, mox, demonic for Chalice @ 0 was an MVP in two different games.

Planar Void was a reasonable hoser all day long, but most importantly against Gifts and Slaver decks that had MD or SB Darkblasts, which otherwise FUBAR you if you don't have a Chalice @ 1.

I think the deck is a model of efficient hate in the format, tho' Leyline of the Void is tempting over Planar Void, I just don't want to turn a copy over for four points of damage.

[roberts91rom]

I play CS and Gifts. You don't play Null Rod or Chalice. I pray to God your deck becomes a huge and popular netdeck so I can get byes against you. I also can't see how you have any game against stax. You run 2 basics and no artifact hate. Post-board you bring in single-target hate such as Annul and Seal of Cleansing (I would assume). That wont help if they start dumping 2 artifact lock pieces a turn. The Grunt is a joke against any good players. I mean, you can't drop that guy on turn 1 or 2 because he dies after 1 swing. The only way I can see this guy being played is late game where it is either win more because you stopped me already or lose more because he isn't disruption to my deck. If you cast that guy on your turn I will either play Will on my turn or play conservatively. He doesn't stop an EoT Gifts.

I will now proceed to list your Maindeck removal. Swords to Plowshares. 3cc bounce that isn't Rebuild. Thats it. Once again, against a good player its just not good enough.

Now we reach your 14 card sideboard with 2 open slots. Unless your entire metagame is Oath and unpowered Stax then I don't think that the sideboard is any good. There are better disruption slots than Sacred Ground in a UBW deck.

Now to wrap up this comment I have 2 things left to say to you.

1. This deck is not "amazing" against CS. The people in your area must be pretty bad to lose to this. I don't need to answer each of your threats individually. Pyroclasm or any one of the cards with a sweeping effect owns you. What is your answer? The Grunt is your only answer to Darkblast, and only stupid players will allow you to remove their darkblast with that thing. Decks like these make me love running Pentavus because it says YOU LOSE in big bold letters like the ones I used. You won't be able to get more than one StP per game and there are so many things you need to remove against CS. I WILL draw a Welder/Big Machine before you get Darkblast/StP. I DO have a proactive draw-engine that allows me to draw cards NOW. I HAVE tutors to get what I need to own you. I RUN more control than you. YOU have no answers to my insane acceleration. What am I? Control Slaver.

2. I may have a biased view because MBDI WUmBo Fish runs better hate, more beats and more answers. Don't take these comments the wrong way but you made a lot of strong statements and backed it up with "In my games against those matchups (even though my opponents werent that good) i had  pretty good games."

You have made a deck that beats bad players, which is fine. But GrimLong completely owns bad players, can beat even the best players AND gives you time to go get lunch.

[Guli]

i hear you are pretty found to you Slaver deck

Why don't we play. I am not the type that comes forward with strong arguments on a forum. I agree on that one.

Why don't we play? Just to see how you can 'own' with your acceleration and unstopable draw engine. Let me tell you this. Once you let a Confidant Resolve you are lost. You will be the one that won't be able to keep up with the incoming disruption. No disruption?

Duress 3 cheap
Force 4 free
Stifle 3 cheap
Wasteland/Strip 4 free
Jötun Grunt 3 2 drop, you really want this guy to hit the board?
Meddling Mage 4 drop No more TFK
Darkblast 2 cheap Welder killer?

23 cards that will disrupt your gameplan. Don't be that arrogant and don't overestimate your abilities in game. Feel free to drop moxes all day long. I ll keep your welders off board and disrupt your draw and keep your Will at bay.

My draw engine is solid.

I agree on my sideboard. Instead of bitching on how badly this deck is designed and promoting your slaver skilz why don't you give some real sideboard advice.

[BreathWeapon]

@Guli,

Despite being brash, Robert is right. I suggest looking at the list I posted to understand how Fish should be built in a diversified metagame with tournament calibur players. Your SB isn't bad, tho' I'd cut BEB for Swords to Plowshares or Darkblast. It's your MD you need to address, because with out Chalice or Kataki, Combo and Prison are going to fist you, hard.

[Guli]

'grunt is your only answer to darkblast'

There are friggin mages in the deck? God dammet if you got something to say use your brains and stay mannered. Even if you are right being arrogant is not going to make people confirm. Djeez dude

I like the deck a lot and it plays nice and smoothly. And i am happy in newbieland and i wish you the best in whatever that place is called cause i aint going there.

Every time i post a deck or reply this shit happens. And the sad part is only some of the posters here actually know what they are talking about. Blinded by cards imprinted in your brains. Change and new stuff make you sick or what? You need results? I have to win some power before i can talk about a list?

Im trying to create something here. And i believe it has potential.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm not certain who that was directed to, but if it was directed at me all I can say is what you're proposing is not new, nor is it sound. You removed the fundamental cards that make Fish what it is, and in return added a creature better suited to Legacy.

Grunt is not an answer to Darkblast, you either Chalice at one or Planar Void.

[Sean Ryan]

Perhaps taking a cue from Sulivan and run a tool box with a couple of Tutors.  You could do something like 2 StP, 1 Darkblast, and 1 Rushing River with a MT & VT/DT.  Post board make sure you are prepared for Oath's Swallowers.

IMHO the Ninja could be something better.  You have access to Dimir Cutpurse, Negator, Kataki, which all seem better.  I know you have him as a way to return the grunt but lets not confuse the Trees for the Forest.

I noticed you scratched off Chalice.  I know Sulivan opted not to run Chalice or Rod but his list is different than previous Fish builds and I think it's a mistake to not to use either at this time, especially with so much combo on the rise.

Keep innovating and don't get discouraged by critiscm, let results show you the way.

Sean

[Guli]

to be honost i get more and more confused on the boards.(i do like forums and talking about magic though)  I am perfectly capable of making my own design. And this is notjust another fish build. There are always cards that keep coming back in all kinda list. But that is simply because they have proven to be solid. My problem with the criticism is not because i do not appreciate it. I do and i want it, keep it coming, but many make the mistake of being so focussed on what is 'good' in their opinion that they are not open for alternatives anymore. In my opinion that is contradictory to Vintage. With almost every card available and all the scenarios and calculations one must consider nobody should claim this or that. Do you (when i say you i do not speak to 1 specific person, let me make that clear) realize how hard it was to cut the negators just to test this new creature base. I love creatures cause it is more of a chalenge to make it work in T1. I like challenges yea and sometimes im being to excited. And please do not pick phrases from a text to quote and then create a contra argument. Do you read the bible or the Qoran like that aswell? Then you are seriously missing the points of the message being send.

About the deck. I totally don't know anymore. I have to reset my mind and try to think rational. When i was making changes all kinda matchups and situations were going through my head. I had reasons which i know can't formulate anymore thanks to all this off topic brabling.

I am sure about this tho. Blue is key and Confidant is black so it must be UB. Maybe i should play Control Confi with Tinker/Tendr win conditions. That would be more my 'style' ?!  I ll be missing out on those lovely creatures tho. I am sure Grunt will see play. Maybe not in the list i created.

[Sean Ryan]

Why don't you hop on the upcoming bandwagon and play SS?  Maybe tinker around with his design a bit, test Rods/Chalice or a white splash.

Sean

[BreathWeapon]

Why don't you hop on the upcoming bandwagon and play SS?  Maybe tinker around with his design a bit, test Rods/Chalice or a white splash.

Sean

I'm still under the impression that SS was a pile that luck sacked into first place, tho' I have been considering Dimir Cutpurse in the Void Mage spot, but I'm hesitant to rely on a 3cc card in Fish. I really don't think SS is viable as a hate deck, and the strength of the cards it runs in comparison to other decks in vintage is poor at best.

Tho' I'll have to wait for time to bare that out.

[Acenought]

If your running ninjaOTDH, I'd run at least four 1 drops. If your not a fan of vanilla creatures, ala Savannah lions, try out Stormscape Apprentice. He slows down oath pre-board and is efficient at stopping colossus, plus has the bonus of being blue for force. Ninja can come out turn 2 very strongly then.

[BreathWeapon]

If your running ninjaOTDH, I'd run at least four 1 drops. If your not a fan of vanilla creatures, ala Savannah lions, try out Stormscape Apprentice. He slows down oath pre-board and is efficient at stopping colossus, plus has the bonus of being blue for force. Ninja can come out turn 2 very strongly then.

I agree, Ninja needs a one drop, tho' Ication Javelineers would be my personal choice, removing Welders, Shamans, Swarms, Confidants, Ichorid/Ghoul and random fishies is quite good, and it has great synergy with Ninja.

[Guli]

Why would i add more cards to make ninja better? He is not the key card in the deck but he has good synergy with my creatures.

[Acenought]

If your running ninjaOTDH, I'd run at least four 1 drops. If your not a fan of vanilla creatures, ala Savannah lions, try out Stormscape Apprentice. He slows down oath pre-board and is efficient at stopping colossus, plus has the bonus of being blue for force. Ninja can come out turn 2 very strongly then.

I agree, Ninja needs a one drop, tho' Ication Javelineers would be my personal choice, removing Welders, Shamans, Swarms, Confidants, Ichorid/Ghoul and random fishies is quite good, and it has great synergy with Ninja.

As good as Ication javs are, I believe the 3 colour manabase needs the blue for force of will. You want to be consistently having the pitchable card in your hand ready for whatever vintage throws at you(alot more than t2 )

[Acenought]

Why would i add more cards to make ninja better? He is not the key card in the deck but he has good synergy with my creatures.

Its not a matter of that. Consistently getting ninja out turn two is very strong. One drops help with your curve as well. With a 1 drop you pay in total for a 2/2 with in built curiosity 4, where as you cood be paying 3 and still having a stand alone threat in the 1/1.

[Guli]

Nah i think using a one drop just to get ninja out is not optimal play. I consistantly have 2 mana turn 1. So im able to cast confi consistantly turn 1. I rather cast a duress turn 1 and pitch the ninja for a force as backup. Or leave that 1 blue opên for stifle. When you guys suggest the '1 drop' idea do you think about how it will affrect the early game of the deck? Or do you simply see 1 card (Ninja) and nothing else. I pitch it or i use it when i think it sgoing to be nice. A Mage that needs to be reset. Or resetting grunt. Or drawing 2 extra cards in 1 turn with confi/ninja.

[BreathWeapon]

Nah i think using a one drop just to get ninja out is not optimal play. I consistantly have 2 mana turn 1. So im able to cast confi consistantly turn 1. I rather cast a duress turn 1 and pitch the ninja for a force as backup. Or leave that 1 blue opên for stifle. When you guys suggest the '1 drop' idea do you think about how it will affrect the early game of the deck? Or do you simply see 1 card (Ninja) and nothing else. I pitch it or i use it when i think it sgoing to be nice. A Mage that needs to be reset. Or resetting grunt. Or drawing 2 extra cards in 1 turn with confi/ninja.

That's nonsense, a manabase with 23 sources and 5 accelerants is not going to have 2 mana consistantly on turn one, maybe every other game.

[Guli]

look there are 5 ways to have 2 mana turn 1. Its like having 4 copies of something you really wanna draw early game. But i still would not run the apprentice just to make my ninja better. Im not investing mana on the ninja on turn 2. I think the confidant is better for that or a mage to immediatly effect the game. Or cast a brainstorm and improving your hand quality combining it with fetching. Nah there are better turn 2 plays than tapping out to draw a card. Besides the 1 drop has to attack and be unblocked aswell. I simply don't care about dropping the ninja turn 2. I care abuot dropping my confis and mages followed by some grave hate with grunt.

[Acenought]

look there are 5 ways to have 2 mana turn 1. Its like having 4 copies of something you really wanna draw early game. But i still would not run the apprentice just to make my ninja better. Im not investing mana on the ninja on turn 2. I think the confidant is better for that or a mage to immediatly effect the game. Or cast a brainstorm and improving your hand quality combining it with fetching. Nah there are better turn 2 plays than tapping out to draw a card. Besides the 1 drop has to attack and be unblocked aswell. I simply don't care about dropping the ninja turn 2. I care abuot dropping my confis and mages followed by some grave hate with grunt.

Look, both breathweapon and I are trying to help. Test out the ideas we present before making decisions such as one drops are just warping the deck for ninja. Ninja probably doesn't even fit in the deck. It has synergy with one card, the "grunt" and bouncing your own meddling mages SUCKS. Dark confidant will net you the same amount of cards at a lower cost the next turn if you don't ninjitsu him out as well. Drop Ninja and please, appreciate the ideas we give.

[Guli]

I don't think your ideas are good enough to let me change the list. People are making suggestions like curfew wich is such a bad card.

Bouncing a mage? I would only do that if i had a good reason. For example if i have enough mana to recast him or if want to reset him to name something else. There are stronger 1cc cards in this deck that are far more important than the suggested '1 drop'. I have a UW Fish that uses a big amount of 1 drops with heavy mana denial.
Bouncing Confi? Only if i can recast him that turn and only if i know that at that moment card advantage is the way to control the game. It's is a good way to fill up your hand a little faster.

If i want to add something to cast ninja faster i would use orni (joke) at least it enables the option to cast Duress or Stifle (wich are far more stronger plays)

Do you know how important that stifle is? A control won't even CARE about a turn 1 1/1 tapper. But stifle on a fetch is devastating. Aggainst aggro plow can be a huge tempo boost aswell. Keep that fetch and wait EOT to plow whatever they cast. Drop something cute turn 2.