Argivian Suprise

[chrissss]

Argivian suprise


instant
Name 3 numbers, your opponent chooses one. Search your library for a card with converted mana cost equal to that number reveal it to all players and put it in your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.

"you choose, you lose"

First I was thinking of making it a B U version, but I wasnt sure.

is 3 mana good?


Current wording

Split Decisions


instant
Name 3 different numbers, your opponent chooses one. Search your library for a card with converted mana cost equal to that number reveal it to all players and put it in your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.

"A lot can happen in one second."

[EnialisLiadon]

Probably should be "Name three different numbers."  Looks cool.

[chrissss]

yes it should, I forgot. I changed it now.

[Matt]

Hm. I bet this is breakable. In Vintage it's surely good, naming like: 6=Bargain/Desire, 5=Memory Jar, 3=Tinker. It almost doesn't matter which you get. I think this needs to be 3U instant or 2U sorcery.

[chrissss]

I d prefer a restriction for vintage then. 4 mana would be expensive for just one card imo. most card drawing is broken in vintage anyway, so well.
gifts ungiven can be more broken. 4 mana can get you bargain, tinker, yawgwill and desire and you will get at least 2 cards.

[Anusien]

2U: Demonic Tutor.

Oh this is way too underpriced.  Effects like this always put the other cards in the graveyard.  For example, in Standard Heartbeat could go 2, 3, 4 and basically tutor for whatever combo piece they want.  How about letting your opponent RFG/graveyard a card from your library for each number they didn't choose.  So if I choose 2, 3, 4; you give me a card at one of those costs and RFG/graveyard a card at the other two.

[jro]

I think this is a great skill-testing card, and the best card I've seen you post, Bad Wolf.

Oh this is way too underpriced.  Effects like this always put the other cards in the graveyard.  For example, in Standard Heartbeat could go 2, 3, 4 and basically tutor for whatever combo piece they want.  How about letting your opponent RFG/graveyard a card from your library for each number they didn't choose.  So if I choose 2, 3, 4; you give me a card at one of those costs and RFG/graveyard a card at the other two.

Having the opponent search your library for cards they want to remove is going to be very tedious.  Resolving the spell would wind up just taking too long.  I think the best way to fix this, if it needs fixing, is just to up the mana cost or make it a sorcery.  But I don't really think it's all that broken to start with.  In Standard, Heartbeat combo can already play Gifts Ungiven as a tutor if it wants, and in the Eternal formats  this doesn't seem more abusable than Gifts Ungiven or Intuition (which really is a U2 instant speed demonic tutor in Legacy).  For one thing, those cards put the "unselected" cards in the yard, which opens up all sorts of combolicious possibilities.  The only danger from this card is in Vintage, where, at minimum, it says "I get Ancestral, Walk, or Will, your choice."  That's strong, but not all that much stronger than Inuition.  Both cards can set you up for a Will next turn, by Intuition for Seal, Vamp, Demonic or this for 1, 2, 3.  There's also the possibility that this could spawn decks made to abuse the choice mechanism, a la Gifts decks, but I think adding that possibility to the environment would be a net gain for the format.

[chrissss]

I think this is a great skill-testing card, and the best card I've seen you post, Bad Wolf.

Thanks, I agree. I love the idea myself.

2U: Demonic Tutor.

Oh this is way too underpriced.  Effects like this always put the other cards in the graveyard.  For example, in Standard Heartbeat could go 2, 3, 4 and basically tutor for whatever combo piece they want.  How about letting your opponent RFG/graveyard a card from your library for each number they didn't choose.  So if I choose 2, 3, 4; you give me a card at one of those costs and RFG/graveyard a card at the other two.

The main reasons I don't find it underpriced, is because Gifts and Intuition are better in a way. the "putting in graveyard" part is a combo for a lot of decks and its great with Yawgmoths Will. This card fetches one card, but your opponent can decide in a way. In Vintage, he can choose, and if its a combo deck, then you can still make sure he doesn't get the Yawgwill, Tinker, Bargain, Ancestral Recall etc.

Because this card is weaker than Gifts in combo, I don't think making it cost more would be fair. This card wouldn't be as good in other formats as gifts, FoF or intuition ever were.

[Anusien]

Part of the reason that Gifts Ungiven is such a skilltester is because you cannot just pull out the 4 best cards in your deck without thought, because you're going to lose 2 of them.  Here you can just go 2, 3, 4 and get Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will, X; where X is Ancestral, Fact or Fiction, Deep Analysis, Memory Jar, Goblin Welder, etc.  Blue's tutoring always comes with a side effect; either a restriction on what you can get or it bins some of the cards to make you choose.  It's an interesting card, but again, I feel you need to balance it somewhat.

And don't build a card saying "Well if it's broken just restrict it."  Restriction is not supposed to be something R&D enters into lightly, and they clearly prefer making balanced but interesting cards (Gifts Ungiven) over easy to use broken cards (Fact or Fiction).

[chrissss]

Well, except for Fof and Gifts blue card drawing doesn't really have any negative effects. Gift's drawback is the putting of 2 cards in a graveyard, but in the games I have seen in Gifts, the 2 cards in the graveyard don't stay there very long.

Anyway, since most of you think this is too powerfull, lets see how I can change it.

Making it cost 4 would mean that its basically a Diabolic tutor at instant speed, but the Tutor fetches all, while the Suprise only gives a select few.

Making it a sorcery could be a possibility, but I prefer to have blue Instant drawing.

How about a drawback on the card or make it slightly different?


instant
Name 3 different numbers, your opponent chooses one. Search your library for 2 cards with converted mana cost equal to that number and reveal them. Your opponent chooses one. Put the choses card in your graveyard and the other card into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.

"You choose, you lose."

like this its not a demonic tutor for 2 mana, because the tutor will go to the graveyard. Tinker or Yawgwill?

is it more balanced like this?

[Illissius]

And don't build a card saying "Well if it's broken just restrict it."  Restriction is not supposed to be something R&D enters into lightly, and they clearly prefer making balanced but interesting cards (Gifts Ungiven) over easy to use broken cards (Fact or Fiction).

Counterexamples include Chrome Mox and Mind's Desire, which were restricted in Vintage upon release. If a card has abusive interactions with the restricted list, but is otherwise a fun and balanced card in other formats, I think release-and-restrict is an acceptable plan. But there has to be a good reason, and it should be kept to a minimum. (e.g., if the card can be modified to be just as good in other formats, without requiring restriction in Vintage, then that's obviously a better solution.)
(This isn't a comment on Argivian Surprise, just a general observation.)

[EnialisLiadon]

Chrome Mox was legal for a while before its restriction, but I get your point.

I really like the version last outlined--it's also interesting to note that the opponent will almost never give you the choice between Tinker and Will, since they probably wouldn't pick the number 3 to begin with.  Though Regrowth/Recoup and Time Walk for 2 could be fun but hardly broken, unless you already has Colossus or an angel in play.

[Harlequin]

How about make it:

Target opponent chooses a number from 0 to 5.  Search your library for a card with converted mana cost equal to that number ... reveal blabla shuffle.


This way if you've played enough of your deck, then they will know to name something smart.  If you leave it "card" then they will be less prone to just always choose 0 because it lets you get lands too (if were not talking t1).   It means you need to run some bombshells at the 4 and 5 level.  If you have a good mixed CC deck then this card is great. 

Alternatively...but ultimately more wordy.

Starting with Target opponent, alternate choosing numbers from 0 to 5 that has not yet been chosen, until there is one number that has not been chosen.  Search your library for a card with casting cost equal to the number that was not chosen, reveal-shuffle.

So there are 6 numbers from 0 to 5.  that means you get to pick 2 you don't want to search for, and your oppnent gets to pick 3 they don't want you to search for. 

[Matt]

If you go with two cards for them to choose from, make sure you say "two cards with different names".

[netherspirit]

If this were to cost 4 I'd even play Diabolic Tutor instead, and that's saying something. At 3 this is still playable, but it needs some way to restrict what you can get. What if it stopped you playing any more spells that turn?

[chrissss]

@ Harlequin

I see what you mean, but having a card that only gives 0-6mana cost limits the card. maybe not for T1m but for T2 and extended.

In the later games, your opponent will always choose 0m which gives you a land. its not green, blue card drawing shouldnt give lands. In T1 is can give a mox or lotus, but even then. This card wont be played in other formats, because 0 would always be choosen. Plus if you dont have many 1 costing cards, and they say 1, its screwed.

I narrowed it down to these 2versions


Argivian suprise Nr1


Name 3 different numbers, your opponent chooses one. Search your library for 2 cards with converted mana cost equal to that number and reveal them. Your opponent chooses one. Put the choses card in your graveyard and the other card into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.

"You choose, you lose."



Argivian suprise Nr2


Name 3 different numbers, your opponent chooses one. Search your library for 2 different cards with converted mana cost equal to that number and reveal them. Your opponent chooses one. Put the choses card in your graveyard and the other card into your hand. Shuffle your library afterwards.

"You choose, you lose."


I prefer the  first one, because its better in other formats like legacy and extended. in T1 everything is restricted, so you need one or the other, Time walk or Dtutor, Yawgwill or Tinker etc. I prefer having to the ability to choose the same card. In addition your opponent has the choice of 3 numbers anyway.


Now one thing I wondered. Should the chosen card be put in the graveyard, or should it be removed from the game??

[jro]

I narrowed it down to these 2versions

I think you are making the card complicated for no good reason.  The original mechanic is useful, elegant, and allows both players to make decisions.  That is the very height of what Magic design should be.  Even if it cost U3 or was a sorcery, it might still see play.  Sacrificing the mechanic to make the card a U2 instant is putting the cart before the horse.

[chrissss]

You are right. I loved the first version. F**k these versions.

4 mana it is.

[chrissss]

24H

[Anusien]

I still feel like my original concerns hold; this is clearly not the direction Wizards has been going with the Intuition/Gifts Ungiven type cards.

Part of the reason that Gifts Ungiven is such a skilltester is because you cannot just pull out the 4 best cards in your deck without thought, because you're going to lose 2 of them.  Here you can just go 2, 3, 4 and get Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will, X; where X is Ancestral, Fact or Fiction, Deep Analysis, Memory Jar, Goblin Welder, etc.  Blue's tutoring always comes with a side effect; either a restriction on what you can get or it bins some of the cards to make you choose.  It's an interesting card, but again, I feel you need to balance it somewhat.

[chrissss]

Yes, thats what most people said, but now I changed it to so thats why its more balanced.

Dont forget, for 4 mana you get a diabolic tutor, which fetches EVERY card you want.

[Anusien]

Diabolic Tutor is a sorcery, double-colored, and in the color better known for its tutoring.  My concern was never power-level, but balancing the color pie.

[chrissss]

For 4 mana, this card is only good in T1 gifts, drain, tendrils and grim long decks. In those decks its really powerfull.

In fish or other decks its a good addition. In T2, legacy or extended, its not even that good. Intuition can be a lot more powerfull in those decks.

At 4 mana this is a good balanced card, test it if you want. I can even see decks not running it because imo 4 mana is to expensive. When you play Dtutor, timewalk, Ancestral recall, tinker, Yazgwill etc, then this card can be good, but for 4 mana, is it that much better than Mystical?

[Anusien]

I'm not questioning the power of the card, but the flavor of blue getting direct tutoring.

Even so, the power is still conceivably above curve, and I'd like someone else's opinion.  You have to remember that most of the cards you're comparing it to aren't legal.  It seems as though Intuition is way the hell above appropriate power level.

The only reason this is outshone in Legacy and Extended is because Gifts Ungiven is an immediate, obvious engine with Life from the Loam and cycling lands.  Direct tutoring is still ridiculously good enough that you really have to question the card.

[chrissss]

What about adding some black in the cost? or making it black?


The only thing I wouldnt like is that now you have to play Black BLue, and I wanted the card to see more deck types

[Machinus]

Isn't this basically Intuition where you get to choose which card you get?

[jro]

This is not direct tutoring.  This is not an Intuition where you pick the card you want.  It's entirely consistent with blue's recent tutoring ability, as seen with Transmute and Gifts Ungiven; it is an imperfect tutor that requires a lot of thought in deck design if you're going to be able to consistently get the one card you really want.  Moreover, this is a card where you can "outthink" your opponent based on what's in your hand or what's in your deck, which is exactly what blue decks should be doing.  At U3, it's power level is nowhere near Intuition or Gifts Ungiven, especially in non-Vintage formats.

[chrissss]

Agreed.

3U it stays and 24H again.


24H

[Anusien]

Transmute is pretty braindead in terms of tutoring.  It's like "My Dimir House Guard gets me Cranial Extraction derf derf." and Transmute was a half black mechanic.  Blue tutoring, especially blue tutoring that presents your opponent with a choice, has the downside of playing a shell game.  "Here are a bunch of cards, pick one to give me."  That style shows through Intuition, Fact or Fiction, and Gifts Ungiven.  Here, you're basically playing Transmute: Your deck.  Yes, if you're dumb and don't set up your deck properly it's a skilltester, but not even the way Gifts is.  Gifts lets you craft a 4 card hand so that the two worst cards give you a good board position.  This is just: "Name three ways to get your bomb".  People didn't botch Transmute in Draft or Standard, so I don't see how this actually ever going to present tricky or interesting gameplay situations any more than Diabolic Tutor or Weird Harvest for Drifts + Maga does.

[parallax]

A: Search your library for any three cards and reveal them. An opponent chooses one. Put that card into your hand and the rest into your graveyard. Then shuffle your library.

B: Search your library for any three cards with different converted mana cost and reveal them. An opponent chooses one. Put that card into your hand and the rest into your library. Then shuffle your library.

A is Intuition. B is essentially what this card does. This card adds a restriction (CMC) and leaves the other cards in your library instead of your graveyard, which may be a benefit or a drawback. I believe that Intuition is much stronger than this card, as it is often used as a double-Entomb. Intuition is very strong at , so I think this card is more than fair at . It seems perfectly in flavor with blue when compared to Intuition this way.