[Card discussion: Orim's Chant] tempo boost?

[Guli]

I would like to open a thread about a card that can be seen as a mini-timewalk for white. Before going further with that statement i think it is safe to say that Orim's Chant is definitly good against decks that rely on Yawgmoth's Will to win.

What i want to focus on is the viability of the card if maindecked. Is playing a early Orim's chant on upkeep of opponent worth it? And is the card strong enough to be 'not dead' in the mid game.

If it would fit in any deck would it be aggro/control? (serving as a weapon against Will/Combo and tempo gaining)

A specific situation: Turn 1 Confi hots the table and opponent has no way to counter or get rid of it. next turn you cast orim on his upkeep.

Discuss please

[Scoops666]

The problem I see with Orims Chant is that in the only deck that could pack it (Fish) it's too slow to accomplish what it wants to do. If you play this early then that means that you skipped playing a threat, which is extremely counter-intuitive to the gameplan of Fish. Remember, Combo is going to combo on turns 1, 2, and maybe 3. By then you just should not have the mana open, save maybe turn 1 if you didn't have a 1 drop or mox. Thats why cards like Stifle sometimes don't make the cut in certaint Fish builds, it requires mana to be kept open instead of proactively playing threats.

[Guli]

I think we should also understand that there are different kind of fish decks. I am not in a hurry when i play my aggro control. I simply play the control role most of the time. I got all the answers i need and a search/draw engine to find them. When a fish deck uses 1 drops i can understand your argument. But unless i draw a mox i always go land/pass.Combo is fast but that single land  could be enough to set up a very effective counter wall with stiffle/force/Orim...

Sitfle and Orim are not required in your opening hand but if you play 3x Stifle/Duress/Orim's Chant i think you have a good chance drawing at least 1 of them.

Maybe we should look at the card more closely, it says: target player can not play spells this turn. Somehow i don't think this is a bad card.

[netherspirit]

I think early game you can play it without the kicker cost and it's still very good, turn 1 or 2 it's essentially Time Walk IF you can resolve it, some time easier said than done. Late game with the kicker cost paid you basically have the same effect, but at least now your opponent will have used up a fair bit of their hand so their less likely to counter it. Late game though you've just got to hope they havent dropped something too nasty before hand.

[chrissss]

Its a great card that can even be used as a defensive purpose if you cast it during your own turn before going of. Its only one mana, and it can give you a whole turn without counters, which can make you win the game. the "creatures cannot attack" is a nice extra bonus feature which can save lives, but this is more something that is used in legacy, although stopping a DS or an Akroma for one turn is nice. Obviously this card is great with Isochron Scepter, but then again, a lot of instants are great with the scepter.

One card that I find to do the trick better than Orim's Chant is Abeyance (Until end of turn, target player can’t play instants, sorceries, or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities. Draw a card)
Abeyance pretty much does what you want Orims chant to do later in the game. It doesn't stop creatures, enchantments and artifacts, but it does stop all other combo cards, or even normal spells.It even stops Mindslaver for a turn. Did I mention it was a cantrip?

Sometimes Orim's Chant is a Timewalk, and its a great card, but I personally have trouble finding the space in my deck for it. I always have cards that are more important, and thats why I hardly play the Chant in Vintage. In legacy I tend to play the chant more often, but like I said before, Abeyance does the trick most of the times, except its also a cantrip.

[Scoops666]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but what do you mean by "going off"? I only ask because no combo decks run white, and those are the only decks I think of when I hear "going off." If you mean "Play some cards" then sure, it can prevent your opponent from countering some of your cards, but then again you have to use some of your precious resources initially, and they still have the counter in hand. I'd rather use Daze, Duress, Fow, or MisD on there counterspells, as that does double duty of ensuring your spells resolve, and pulling the answer out of there hand.

As far as different kinds of Fish decks, they really are all essentially the same. Small guys with useful controllish abilities, card draw, and disruption. They walk that very fine line of aggro/control. Too much aggro in the deck and you have no answer for when your opponent wants to say "I win." Too much control and there isn't enough pressure to force your opponents play. Orims Chant simply won't do enough. Grim Long can usually survive a couple of attack steps, so it won't mind having to wait a turn. Control won'tt care at all, they'll either just play all there instants on your turn, or counter it if they want to end the game.

Now this isn't to say it isn't worth testing, in fact, I do plan on throwing it in my test Fish build to see if I'm wrong on any of my theories. I just have a strong feeling after watching it sit in peoples hands that the card is very underwhelming for an aggro/control deck.

[BreathWeapon]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned using this card in Ichorid, it's a 1 cc version of Time Walk and an anti combo card that can be cast off a single City of Brass or Gemstone Mine.

The card is awful in Fish.

[Scoops666]

Ichorid is so tight on mana, all it wants to be doing with its mana is finding ways to put threats and dredge cards into the graveyard. I don't think this would be a good use of Ichorids time and resources.

[ashiXIII]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but what do you mean by "going off"? I only ask because no combo decks run white, and those are the only decks I think of when I hear "going off." If you mean "Play some cards" then sure, it can prevent your opponent from countering some of your cards, but then again you have to use some of your precious resources initially, and they still have the counter in hand. I'd rather use Daze, Duress, Fow, or MisD on there counterspells, as that does double duty of ensuring your spells resolve, and pulling the answer out of there hand.

As far as different kinds of Fish decks, they really are all essentially the same. Small guys with useful controllish abilities, card draw, and disruption. They walk that very fine line of aggro/control. Too much aggro in the deck and you have no answer for when your opponent wants to say "I win." Too much control and there isn't enough pressure to force your opponents play. Orims Chant simply won't do enough. Grim Long can usually survive a couple of attack steps, so it won't mind having to wait a turn. Control won'tt care at all, they'll either just play all there instants on your turn, or counter it if they want to end the game.

Now this isn't to say it isn't worth testing, in fact, I do plan on throwing it in my test Fish build to see if I'm wrong on any of my theories. I just have a strong feeling after watching it sit in peoples hands that the card is very underwhelming for an aggro/control deck.

Grim Long is a 5-color combo deck and could easily cast this. Its role would be very similiar to Xantid Swarm, except that it doesn't get Darkblasted and needs to be cast the turn you're going off as opposed to the turn before. It's less vulnerable because of that, but at the same time it takes up extra mana when you're trying to win. I think it might still have potential, though. Has anyone ever tested this in Grim Long in the Swarm's place?

[BreathWeapon]

Ichorid is so tight on mana, all it wants to be doing with its mana is finding ways to put threats and dredge cards into the graveyard. I don't think this would be a good use of Ichorids time and resources.

Yeah, that's obviously why people hard cast Therapy, cast Chain, Rod, Needle, Maze, Ray, Blast ... I'm not saying Chant is a definate inclusion, but using that line of thinking to dismiss it is terrible.

[Jank Golem]

Just thought I would point out that this is not a Timewalk vs. Drain decks and other decks running instants(basically everything). The player still gets to draw a card, untap their lands, play a land and then play an instant during your turn, it effectively does nothing on the offensive. It could see play as a defensive card in combo deck however.

[The_spooky_kid]

its excellent at slowing your opponent down.  It makes it so darksteel colossus cannot kill you for a turn, and overall i see it as an underused card.  My friend chris nighbor took 16th place day 2 at rochester with a scepter chant/ keeperish style deck that ran chants.  The card is very good, it just hasn't found the right deck to be in yet,

[LouGodKingofDustBunnys]

Grim Long is a 5-color combo deck and could easily cast this. Its role would be very similar to Xantid Swarm, except that it doesn't get Darkblasted and needs to be cast the turn you're going off as opposed to the turn before. It's less vulnerable because of that, but at the same time it takes up extra mana when you're trying to win. I think it might still have potential, though. Has anyone ever tested this in Grim Long in the Swarm's place?

Just because Grim Long is a 5 color deck, it doesn't always mean it has a 5 color mana source available. Often times your only white producer the turn you go off is needed for another color, or isn't available until you have already started going off, at which time it's just a waste of mana. Repeated testing with Chant and Abeyance prove that at best, either one slows you down in going off or just sits in your hand doing nothing but taunting you. Xantid, although it doesn't help you till the turn after you cast it, has proven itself superior to both Chant, and Abeyance.

[Pitlord]

I believe that of all the decks mentioned so far in this thread, ichorid and fish could probably use chant the best, although I'm not sure if it is optimal in any deck that isn't using it as a sceptor lock thing.

In fish I would much rather be applying pressure, but Chant could see play instead of stifle in some meta games. If you don't see a lot of control, chant could be good as long as you have enough white to support it. It can act the same as a stifle against combo, except it can't get duressed away because you can play it at upkeep.

In ichorid I can see it as a sort of time walk effect that only costs 1, but I think ichorid could probably be using it's limnited mana a little better, especially since this doesn't function as time exactly, because the opponent still gets to untap all of his guys to chump block your lightning bolts.

In combo, having 1 more mana in a color of mana that you generally NEVER need is a big deal, and can be hard to obtain. It does seem OK in a deck like 5color dragon, or any other combo deck that doesn't win with storm.

[Neonico]

I've found that chant isnt optimal in Ichorid. In fact, i so much prefer to include stifle in my board (I did it with alot of succes when i Top4ed with the deck) because of its versatility. Its really good against combo, a huge tempo boost against control, COmbo-control and also stronger than chant because it can win a turn against decks like belchers, and fight against wasteland on bazaar.
We intensivly tested it in our WRb aggro control deck ,which was weak against combo and it seems to be the missing part of the deck to fight turn one wins, at least on the play. When you can chain Chants turn one, Hide/seek/bloodmoon turn 2, with chalice backup, you really got the strong enough disruption package to win from there.
In a powered white splashed contorl (or aggro control) deck, Abeyance is just better because it also fight activated abilities such as belcher for example. ANd its also strong for the card advantage part of the spell.
I found it better than Xantid in Grim long and made the swap.

[LordHomerCat]

Xantid is so good because it works for free on the turn you go off, and it works multiple times if needed.  Chant slows you down a full turn, and if you aren't able to win (a bad draw7 or something), if you get the turn back you are really screwed, whereas xantid will just give you another free pass.  How often do you go off turn 2 and have one of your rainbow lands untapped at the end of it, that you could have used chant?

[Zias]

Not long ago I experimented the use of Orim's Chant in Oath, coupled with Memory Lapse, and Remand. Each of these cards served dual purposes, serving as virtual Time Walks or resolving Oath itself.

The primary issue with Oath is that when it hits the table, the game is not over, the opponent often has Two-Three turns remaining. Time Walk usually ends the game after the first angel has hit the table, so I decided that the deck needed more.  Orim's Chant filled the spot.

[karlake]

In fish I would much rather be applying pressure, but Chant could see play instead of stifle in some meta games. If you don't see a lot of control, chant could be good as long as you have enough white to support it. It can act the same as a stifle against combo, except it can't get duressed away because you can play it at upkeep.

Chant can't be duressed away becouse you play it in responce to duress or dark ritual.