Staxless Stax...the next evolution of Workshop decks?

[Disburden]

Gamble's hot!

Seriously, I'm surprised more people don't play Gamble in decks that rely on getting specific cards in hand or in the 1graveyard. It's inexpensive to cast and unrestricted to boot. While there are better tutors, it seems like Gamble could have its applications.

Ever since this post I have been wondering how many Gambles the deck should run.. if any. If you make room to run multiple Gambles then you have to lose some of your good 5c goodies. Here's what the list runs now:

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Crop Rotation
4 Goblin Welders
1 Demonic tutor
1 Balance
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Gorilla Shaman

I really do not feel that Gamble can be better than running your tutors. If the deck was to run Gamble, tutors would be necessary to compliment the decks tutoring abilities. I like the idea of Gamble a lot but with my inexperience with the deck I feel it's incredibly hard to find any slots for it. I wouldn't think of getting rid of lock pieces either. That'd just be ignorant since those are the heart of the deck. The two Sensei's Divining tops would probably seem like the first picked to go, although I love them in the deck right now.

Fishman, How has the deck been doing with Gambles lately? I've noticed the thread has slipped down a bit in the open forum due to lack of posts, so I was wondering how you've been doing with the deck. I will say that Darksteel Ingot is really good in this deck. I have had nothing but a smile on my face every single time I have gotten the card in hand. I used to think I would never like that artifact in Shop decks, but this changed my mind. Good job.

[Webster]

Regarding gamble:

I had been digging through www.morphling.de for decklists to run at one of the Eudemonia tournaments and stumbled on a mono red stax list that ran 3 gamble. When I looked at gamble, I compared it to a tutor used in 5-c stax lists. Tutors made your singleton bullets in 4x copies with the tutors increasing your chances of getting any specific hoser card for a given matchup. Gamble also has obvious synergy with crucible of worlds and goblin welder, effectively turning it into a demonic tutor/entomb.

There were some problems that popped up though. As a topdeck, gamble was pretty bad if I didn't have one of the aformentioned cards (welder/crucible); most of the time I would not have more than 2 cards in hand other than gamble so if I wanted to play it, the odds of me pitching the card I tutored for were higher than what I thought would have been acceptable at that point. With welder/crucile, gamble was good. Actually, it was better than good, it was amazing; but when I had neither, it was frowntown.

I had a few situations during the tournament where I would play gamble on turn 1 and it worked out most of the time since my hand was 6-7 cards when a card had to be discarded. I actually discarded the ensnaring bridge I had tutored for against ichorid one of those times, which was unfortunate. I still won by drawing another one of my SB cards but that's another story.

Another problem I had with gamble was its casting cost: 1. With four copies of chalice of the void in the maindeck, I didn't really like chalicing for 1, although it was the correct play in various matchups. Shutting down both goblin welder and gamble was annoying.

Everything considered, I think that gamble isn't necessary for 5-c stax since the tutors it runs already are just better. Note that I have never played a game with 5-c stax so maybe I am just making poor observations, but my intuition says otherwise.


Web

[UniversalSnip]

Top is never worse in this deck than a brainstorm(if you get just one use out of it before they bring down Null Rod) but at best assures that your draws will always be superb. The one problem, pointed out by Keith Johnson who played the deck, is that occasionally you get a glut of bad cards on top.

This is exactly why you shouldn't be playing top unless you dramatically alter the build. With sufficient recharges top is an absolutely ridiculus card, verging on busted. I don't doubt for a second type one players should be slinging this thing around constantly, but I've played it a lot in multiple formats and it's really, really, really bad without shuffles.

- it keeps you from running four. This is a big deal... in a shuffle heavy deck you want to see top so so badly. Top is pretty much always better than the weakest card in your deck because it digs up multiples of the stronger ones and gives you a perfect manabase to cast them. If you draw > 1 tops that's also fine, because you can turn the redundant copy into a straight up impulse for three. Without shuffles they're just going to sit on the board sucking instead of being real action cards.

- Top doesn't actually fix bad draws without shuffles. You can't cherry pick the best of three and then shuffle the other two into irrelevence. Instead you're stuck with cards you don't want, and why run top if it isn't going to turn trash into gold like it does in other decks?

- Combo tings with welder and so on don't justify suboptimal slots. Know what else is good with welder? Everything.

[iamfishman]

I agree...Smokestack is not very good in this list...

But thats about the end of where we agree. I really do like the list, I even had it built quite some time ago for testing and possible play. The deck really just reminds me of the older 7/10 split decks from a while back (which I also played pretty substantially) What I am missing is what this deck has to even do with Stax in the first place, heh...it can maybe be called "Staxless Workshop deck" but "Staxless Stax" just hasnt really done it for me here. I believe it leads to an unfair evaluation of Smokestack as a whole simply because smokestack doesnt fit well with the gameplan as I see it in your deck.

Finding the synergy with the deck as a whole should lead many/most people to see why and how smokestack actually works. Especially when coupled with the other card you are bashing in Sphere of Resistance. Yes true..smokestack does little for the first few turns, however there are a large amount of other cards which are more aimed at Stax's early game for slowing the opponent down.

I simply find that analysis of Smokestack only appropriate in a vacuum with no other cards involved....its almost like saying Tolarian Academy is a bad card because it needs at least 2 artifacts to be better than Island and can be wastelanded and Yawgmoths Will is terrible because the graveyard isnt always really big on turn 1 or 2 and people play yard hate sometimes.

@ Lunar...you bring up a good point.  The reason why I did look at Smokestack in a vacuum is based on the complexity of looking at it with other cards involved.  Is Smokestack better, the more it is combined with cards like Sphere of Resistance and Crucible? Yes.  Could a substantial debate be made to rate the quality of Smokestack in every combination of different number of "asisstant" cards with reasonable accuracy? No. 

Your argument that Smokestack should not be looked at in a vacuum, because there are other cards that are incredibly powerful but only in combination with other cards/game states(Yawg Will) is weakend by the difference in when you need/have these cards.  You want to draw Will later in the game when the situation will likely be one where Yawg Will is most powerful.  Therefore, the condition of a full graveyard comes NATURALLY in combination with the timing of the casting of the card.  By contast, Smokestack is according to my argument, only good when played turn one.  If played turn one, it can be assumed that you usually won't also cast a Sphere until turn two.  By then, your opponent's moxes will help negate the Sphere's effect.

Since, my claim is that Smokestack is at its best on turn one(when not comboed with other cards), it must be looked at in a vaccuum.




As for the talk of Gambles and Top: I have been working with the following changes
- 1 Top and 1 Gamble instead of 2 Tops
- Duplicant has become Platinum Angel(Thank you 49 Cents)

I am not liking the Gamble so far, but it is still up for debate.
The Platinum Angel, on the other hand has been nothing short of amazing.  It comes down almost as easily when I just need and attacking threat, yet hits for twice as much damage.  All the things I would use Duplicant against, it works well against and any removal that gets rid of it would just work against Duplicant.  Also...its a nice drop in a heavy mana hand against combo.

[vroman]

in 5c stax, divining top is fine. combo it w bazaar. you can stack [bad, bad, good] in upkeep, then mill away the top 2 and draw premium card, then you have fresh 3 to look at that turn, and repeat in every upkeep. if you have to draw w sd-top, you can bazaar it away, once its done its job and new random draw instead. sd-top and bazaar greatly improve each other's function AND they help find each other. and of course the welder synergy is nice. solid draw tool, that Id strongly consider if not for null rod.

[Smmenen]

When I was playing against Ray it suddenly occured to me how Ray might be onto something:

With the legalization of portal, vintage may have suddenly a critical mass of tutors.   The consequence of this fact means that the role of smokestack can be effectively usurped by other cards.

For example, there are now 4 ways to find Strip mine in stax.  Thus, Crucible + Strip can take out lands faster than Stack.  Shaman can eat the moxen, and tutoring up Balance can remove the creatures.  The actual function of the Stack itself is now less necessary because other cards can do everything stack could.  This wasn't true a year ago (or less true a year ago). 

[yespuhyren]

As far as Smokies, I'm not sure what to think.   I have cut them, and I have disliked them and felt they were unnecessary for a while. Although I'm still undecided about Vromans Vs My Ubastax deck, because he is still continually doing well with Stacks MD.  I can't decide who's approach is right, or whether something in between would be better.

[Wudil]

Hello,

I've tested and played so many workshop lists that I can't remember all of them.

My last one is also a staxless list and since I saw your really nice explanation about Smoke (can't detail more what I think of this card) and about your decklist, I ended testing and playing mine which isn't far from your.

I would love to exchange our point of view about the "best" Staxless Stax decklist we could build.

First of all, I'll show you the list I played yesterday at the biggest French tournament ("Clichy #16" with 120+ people and 7 swiss rounds and a REL3) and make a little report, then I'll explain my card choices.

// NAME : Under The Radar
// CREATOR : Wudil (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT : Vintage
        1  Strip Mine
        1  Tolarian Academy
        3  Wasteland
        4  City of Brass
        4  Gemstone Mine
        4  Mishra's Workshop
        1  Black Lotus
        1  Jester's Cap
        1  Mana Crypt
        1  Mana Vault
        1  Memory Jar
        1  Mox Emerald
        1  Mox Jet
        1  Mox Pearl
        1  Mox Ruby
        1  Mox Sapphire
        1  Sol Ring
        1  Trinisphere
        2  Crucible of Worlds
        2  Darksteel Ingot
        3  Tangle Wire
        4  Chalice of the Void
        1  Duplicant
        1  Sundering Titan
        1  Triskelion
        2  Gorilla Shaman
        4  Goblin Welder
        1  Ancestral Recall
        1  Balance
        1  Vampiric Tutor
        3  Thirst for Knowledge
        1  Demonic Tutor
        1  Imperial Seal
        1  Timetwister
        1  Tinker
        1  Wheel of Fortune
SB:  1  Arcane Laboratory
SB:  1  Rule of Law
SB:  3  Tormod's Crypt
SB:  2  Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2  Eon Hub
SB:  3  Choke
SB:  1  Triskelion
SB:  2  Swords to Plowshares

Here is the little report, sorry if this seems way faster that it was but I didn't take many notes...

Laurent playing Merchant.dec

Game1: I open with Workshop + Mox and Jester's Cap. He plays E-Truth on it. I play Tangle Wire (resolves) + Welder which gets FoWed. He plays a land. I play Crucible of Worlds. He pass without playing a land. I replay Jester's Cap and activate it for the win.
Game2: I play Workshop + Ingot and plays at his EOT Vamp for Gorilla Shaman since I had Wasteland in hand and he had 2 moxens on the board (1st missplay). I play them and eat his 2 moxs and he plays Mana Crypt on his turn and Tinker for Pentavus. I make a last try with playing Welder which gets FoWed, GG.
Game3: Land + Welder + CotV @ 0. I then play a Wasteland on his dual. I play a second welder + land. Then play another land and during his turn try a TfK in response to a Merchant (he still has UU open). He lets resolve it, I draw Memory Jar, Workshop and 3sphere, discard Jar. I try to ReB his merchant to let him Drain it. He gets Ancestrall and pass. I draw Choke, play WS + 3Sphere and Choke, GG.

1-0

Nicolas playing Suicide

Game1: He resolves some duress and Sinkhole + Wasteland on my lands. I finally play a Mana Vault with my last moxen, draw Workshop and can play Duplicant on his Juzam he just played. He resolves Hyppy but I play Vamp for CoW (with Strip in yard), GG.
Game2: He duress my only mox turn1. He then Sinkhole *2 + Wasteland and I'm out of gaz. He then play 2 Hyppies and win.
Game3: I play turn 1 CotV @ 2 (With double mox and Workshop) and EOT Vamp for Academy. I then play Aca for Triskel. On turn 3 I play TfK for Welder, Tinker and rainbow land and discard a CotV, GG.

2-0

Nicolas playing 2L-Charbelcher (who plays it nowadays? Him... *sigh*)

Game1: I play turn 1 Shaman and eat a mox. He kills me on turn 2.
Game2: I play CotV @ 0 turn 1 with Shaman turn 2. Waste his oly land then eat his chromatic sphere he played with his land. he then plays mox and Sol Ring I ate. I finished with Tinker on 3sphere, GG.
Game3: I make a BIG mistake of not mulliganing the 7 cards hand since I only have Welder and Shaman in that hand, no CotV, no 3sphere, nothing. He kills me on turn 3 while playing carefully.

2-0-1

Frederic playing UBA.

Game1: I play turn 1 land + Mox + Welder + CotV @ 0 holding Sol Ring and Triskel. He plays WS and at his EOT, tells me he has to discard... we call the judge and he gets a GL.
Game2: I'm the only siding and wondering why he doesn't since he knows what I'm playing. He will tell me later that he was to angry to think... I play CotV @ 0 + land and welder. Gets Gorilla Shaman a turn later and begin to eat his whole board. He has welder in but I can get a Triskel and finish him off a TfK discarding a Titan which eats his board twice (3 mountains by coming in and out), GG.

3-0-1

Damien playing the worst deck ever for me aka Workshop/Metalworker/Staff of Domination...

Game1: He plays turn 1 3sphere but I have Workshop and some stuff (Jester's for smoke food and Tangle to slow him), I manage to make the race till he resolves his smokestack and gets CoW while I don't. He also gets a Tangle in the course, GG.
Game2: I play turn 1 Land, Red Mox, Welder and Shaman holding Duplicant. He plays turn 1 WS Metalworker. I don't have workshop and don't touch a StP I sided in and can't take care of his Metalworker. He reveals turn 2 a hand with 7 artifacts which are in Staff and Triskel, GG.

3-0-2 and I missed the Top8 with this

Player X playing Slaver (Can't remember his name sorry but was the best games I played against during the whole tournament, really enjoying!).

Game1: I play a really fast Gorilla Shaman + Welder and manage to eat his whole board. I finally resolve a Tangle and can play a Triskel and then Tinker on my Mana Crypt (I was at 3 life) for Titan which ends the game.
Game2: I resolve a fast Welder with Red Mox and Wasteland on his Volc. He plays carefully and ended playing R&R on my Mox and CoW I just played earlier. He resolves a Bloodmoon and win from there.
Game3: I play a turn 1 3sphere which gets FoWed then turn 2 CotV @ 2 which resolves. He finally manages to play R&R on my CoTV @ 0 and 2. I hold a ReB and play a Choke, he lets resolves it and try at my next EOT to bounce it with E-Truth he got from a Merchant Scroll that I ReB, GG.

4-0-2

Paul playing Mono R Stax.

Game1: I again resolve a turn 1 Shaman and manage to eat a mox and a lightning greave on his welder, I then play Welder 1 or 2 turns later under a Tangle of mine (I love this card, this is really a Time Walk!). This combination is a GG.
Game2: I play turn 1 WS + Black for Triskel. Turn 2 Land on Mana Vault and second Triskel and go for the win some turns later when Welder comes in.

5-0-2

I finish at the 21th place of 122 people with a 5-0-2 record and two loss to two decks I thought I couldn't meet... Belcher and MetalWorker/Staff.

The deck in his whole worked really well for me except Balance. Each time I wanted to play it, I had resolve a CotV @ 2 or had at least 1 creature on the board which couldn't let me take care of the creatures I wanted to. It was also sometimes hard to play it since I always had more lands that my opponent and most of the time also more cards due to my really nice drawing engine.
I will remove it for a Swords to Plowshare MD and remove the second one in the side for a Propaganda due to our metagame where there are sooooo many Fish decks and because Ichorid will grow in power with the Time Spiral extension coming in.

I will also remove a Tormod's since I didn't really have a use of them and 2 seems enough with that draw engine and these tutors. I could put a Ghostly Prison in for the same reason as before.

I end up with this decklist:

// NAME : Under The Radar
// CREATOR : Wudil (magic-ville.com)
// FORMAT : Vintage
        1  Strip Mine
        1  Tolarian Academy
        3  Wasteland
        4  City of Brass
        4  Gemstone Mine
        4  Mishra's Workshop
        1  Black Lotus
        1  Jester's Cap
        1  Mana Crypt
        1  Mana Vault
        1  Memory Jar
        1  Mox Emerald
        1  Mox Jet
        1  Mox Pearl
        1  Mox Ruby
        1  Mox Sapphire
        1  Sol Ring
        1  Trinisphere
        2  Crucible of Worlds
        2  Darksteel Ingot
        3  Tangle Wire
        4  Chalice of the Void
        1  Duplicant
        1  Sundering Titan
        1  Triskelion
        2  Gorilla Shaman
        4  Goblin Welder
        1  Ancestral Recall
        1  Swords to Plowshares
        1  Vampiric Tutor
        3  Thirst for Knowledge
        1  Demonic Tutor
        1  Imperial Seal
        1  Timetwister
        1  Tinker
        1  Wheel of Fortune
SB:  1  Propaganda
SB:  1  Ghostly Prison
SB:  1  Rule of Law
SB:  1  Arcane Laboratory
SB:  2  Tormod's Crypt
SB:  2  Red Elemental Blast
SB:  2  Eon Hub
SB:  3  Choke
SB:  1  Triskelion
SB:  1  Swords to Plowshares

All the other cards were gold (Except that Arcane Lab and Rule of Law were only sided in vs Belcher and weren't that great since he could kill without its Storm effect but these cards are still gold against Storm.dec).

Here is a sample of what I do for my sideboard changes without taking care of the fact I'm on the play or the draw:

Vs Controle Slaver:

- Jester's - 2 Crucible - 3 Tangle Wire - Wasteland
+ 2 ReB + 3 Choke + StP + Triskel

Vs Gifts/Merchant:

- 2 Crucible - Triskelion -StP - 3 Tangle Wire
+ 2 ReB + 3 Choke + 2 Tormod's

Vs Storm.dec:

- StP - Triskel - 3 Tangle Wire - Titan if its manabase is rainbow land, if not - Welder(If Island.dec - 2 Crucible)
+ 2 ReB + 2 Tormod's + Rule of Law + Arcane Lab (If Island.dec + 2 Choke)

Vs (UBA) Stax:

- 3Sphere - Titan - Jester's - 3 Tangle Wire
+ 2 Eon Hub + 2 Tormod's Crypt + StP + Triskel

Vs Oath:

- Triskel - 2 Crucible - 2 Gorilla Shaman - 3 Tangle Wire
+ 2 ReB + 2 Eon Hub + 3 Choke + StP

Vs Ichorid (didn't play this matchup much and really not sure):

- Jester's - 3 Tangle Wire - Duplicant - 2 Welder (since he plays CotV and Null Rods and I have to play CotV @ 1 against him)
+ 2 Tormod's + 2 Eon Hub + StP + Propaganda + Ghostly Prison

Vs Dragon:

- Triskel - Gorilla Shaman - 3 Tangle Wire (- Crucible - Goblin Welder if UB)
+ 2 Tormod's + 2 ReB + StP (+ 2 Choke if UB)

Vs Bomberman (Should I play Rule of Law and Arcane Lab? Don't know this matchup well enough):

- 2 CoW - 3 Tangle - Triskel
+ 3 Choke + StP + 2 ReB

Vs Fish (- Draw 7s since Aggro is the only matchup I don't want to refill his hand):

- Jester's Cap - 3 Tangle Wire - Timetwister - Wheel of Fortune - Goblin Welder - Crucible
+ 2 Eon Hub + 2 ReB + StP + Triskel + Ghostly Prison + Propaganda

Vs Sullivan Solution (same reason for the Draw 7s):

- Jester's Cap - Timetwister - Wheel of Fortune - 2 Crucible - 3 Tangle Wire - Gorilla Shaman
+ 2 ReB + 3 Choke + StP + Triskel + Ghostly Prison + Propaganda

I tested a lot Gilded Lotus but finally found it "overkill" and was really surprised how Ingots worked. It's really a GREAT card and since no one counters them (and it seems "normal" in the first place), it helps to stabilize the manabase a lot since I play 17 colored cards. This is also the reason why I choosed not to play 4 Wastelands (plus the fact that so many basics are played everywhere) and play 4 City of Brass and 4 Gemstone Mines.

I replaced Karn for a second Gorilla Shaman since there aren't many artifacts to "anime" and let go for the kill. I also really like to be able to play them turn 1 and not using my Tinker for it since there are so many better targets for Tinker. I still can get Shaman of off tutors or my nice draw engine really fast.

I played Senseis for a long time in my stacker and found them really nice in it but in my tests and in this deck. I felt that I really wanted to refill my hand, not only see what was going on during the next 3 turns. I also wanted to make my welders more powerful since, in this deck, there aren't many artifacts to weld-in except those countered/managed and Tangles. Thirst were then an autoinclude in the deck. I also tested and love the 2 Draw7 which played turn 1 (or even later) is devastating, even against Combo decks. I felt that the worst matchup for them to be resolved is against Aggro. You, of course, have to take care of an Hurkyl's Recall or some sort of spell played in response, like Memory Jar.

I also removed Crop Rotation since I don't love this card alone and can't imagine that it can be countered, devastating! I replaced it with an Imperial Seal which was gold each time I could touch it.

I played from 2 to 4 Crucibles and found that with so many basics out there, their use coupled with Wastelands weren't that great. I also don't want to see 2 of them in the same game and since I run so many tutors / draws, it finally ended that 2 was enough, 3 was just a "security" and not so needed.

Finally and as you can see, I escape all the cards with a 2cc since playing CotV for 2 is an autoplay in so many matchups.
I found that Time Walk was far from really useful. The best use I could do of it was making my welders active but since they're not the KEY cards in the deck and you have so few cards to weld-in, it didn't change many thing.

Here is my 2 cts contribution for this thread I would like to come back from the abyss of Themanadrain.

I'll keep in touch with you after playing at the Vintage Championship in Eindhoven and 2 others French Tournaments about this deck.

Thank you much Imafishman for this really nice initial post and all these explanations, I really loved it.

Wudil

Ps: Don't be too hard (on my "wording") with a french guy whose his english still has to improve a lot