[Single Card Discussion] Perilous Research

[Machinus]

When I first saw this card, I was excited about it. I brought it up in the preview thread and the response was not enthusiastic. So here are the reasons why I think it has potential in Vintage. I'd like to hear more arguments both for and against it.

The main reason why I like this card is that, for two mana, your hand always goes up one card. Sacrificing a permanent is a pretty easy cost in Vintage, but it gets much better when you are responding to removal on your permanents, such as wasteland, shaman, etc.

The first thing that came to my mind when I saw this card was Thirst for Knowledge. With TfK, you can't use the mox you are getting rid of to cast the spell, but with this one you can. Consider these two spells from the point of view of their costs:

Research trades a card in hand and a permanent for two cards.
Thirst trades two cards in hand for three.

However, there is a subtle difference in the way these spells would be played. With Research, you don't want to hold back your mana artifacts. If you have a mox, Research costs two less than Thirst, since the mox you will be "pitching" to Research can be used to pay half the cost, whereas the mox you pitch to Thirst cannot.

(If that sounds confusing, imagine this situation. You are playing control and your board is three islands. Your hand is mox, draw spell. If you play Thirst, your hand will end up being three spells, and you will be tapped out. If you play research, your hand will be two spells, but you will have double blue open. The mox ends up in the graveyard either way.)

This card encourages you to play out your mana early, since you can trade lands and moxes for cards whenever you want.  It can cycle nonbasics, moxes, and creatures targetted by removal (and also prevent rfg on important permanents). It helps in getting library online for two mana.

What are your thoughts?



EDIT: I'd like to propose another thought experiment, just for the sake of this analysis.

Let's reword the cards slightly so that they are easier to compare:

PR: Draw two, sac a mox, 1U.
TFK: Draw three, discard a mox, 2U.

In that scenario, you are just paying one more mana for one more card, so the cards are clearly on a similar level. TfK's additional applications are pretty limited to Slaver, whereas PR is good against removal and gets really good in the late game against control where you can sac lands. The mana costs are also a little misleading, which I think makes a big difference as well.

[ctthespian]

This might help for us less enthusiastic about reading spoilers every day.

  Perilous Research
Instant
Draw two cards, the sacrifice a permanent.

[meadbert]

This could be busted in turboland.

[Jank Golem]

This card seems like it could be quite good for many of the reasons you already stated. The most important one I think is using it as a response to Wasteland or other removal. It can't be played in all decks, CS being the main example where thirst is just better. In decks with a lower mana curve, such as fish it could have some applications, maybe even in some control decks. It has pretty scary synergy with Hatching plans, that may be too slow a draw engine in Vintage though.ftp://

[Masticor]

You can`t really compare this card with thirst for knowledge. With thirst i can discard expencive artifact spells and bring them into play via welder which is awesome. Here you draw 2 cards and have to sacrifice a permanent wich is nocht quite hot in the most situations. I don´t wanna play it in the eary game because i want to build up my manabase. In the mid or later game i can cast more effective draw Spells like Thirst or Gifts.

But there are indeed situations where this card could be useful besides the wasteland example you already gave. You can remove bobs with it which can be quite annoying if you have reached a low life level.

Another question is, can it be used in a combo deck because there it is wo play cards with a bigger drawback for the tempo boost (like Infernal Contract maybe?)

[orgcandman]

There are a few crucial differences which make this only good for something like combo (IE: stormX or something else)

1) permanent mana sources are very key. They're the bread and butter of control. Control is mana hungry, and wants its mana development to be stable, long-lasting, and immediately usable.

2) While thirst makes playing out moxen less attractive, it also draws that crucial third card (which is amazingly good). This card reads -2 cards(lose permanent, and lose card in hand) for +2 cards (draw 2). Thirst is, at worst -3 cards (lose two cards in hand, and thirst), +3 cards (draw three cards). At its more common play, it's +1 card advantage. +1 is good. In fact, I'd say that is really the reason why decks running tfk are so good. Not just just the synnergy with will/welder but also the subtle card advantage, which when mixed with all the tutoring and thinning, means amazing hand quality, and amazing card quality. That +2 you get from playing two thirsts in the game is what wins it.

3) This requires conditions to be met before you play it as opposed to after you play it. Think about this turn 1 play: Lotus, Thirst, and then think about this turn 1 play: Lotus, Research. Oh, whoops, you can't make that play. I'm not saying that lotus thirst is an amazing play, but any situation where you'd be behind (say against stax after they've reset the board with an insane smokestack) lotus, thirst is much more appealing to see than lotus research. And thirst can be played in situations where you're behind in mana development (and don't want to paint yourself in a corner), or have a less-than-great hand in certain game 1's (for metagame slots).

EDIT: WHOOPS, I'm dumb...disregard point #3.

[Machinus]

3) This requires conditions to be met before you play it as opposed to after you play it. Think about this turn 1 play: Lotus, Thirst, and then think about this turn 1 play: Lotus, Research. Oh, whoops, you can't make that play.

Actually, you're wrong. You can make that play. The sacrifice happens on resolution.

[The Atog Lord]

Research is a bad Magic card that won't see Type One play. Sacrificing a permanent is a much higher price to pay than discarding a card, the difference being that sacrificing a permanent costs you both a card and either the mana spent to play the nonmana spell or costs you a mana-producing resource. So, either you sacrifice a card that you paid mana for, or you cost yourself the ability to produce some mana in the future. Either way, sacrificing a permanent is quite costly. The fact that Lat-Nam's Legacy and Impulse aren't even seeing play means that this card also won't.

[AmbivalentDuck]

It's worth mentioning that saccing a permanent isn't horrible if you choose a permanent you *want* to sack.  Hatching Plans for example:

1U, Enchantment, When Hatching Plans is put into a graveyard from play, draw three cards.

Or alternatively, some kind of blue "Stax" that abuses symettrical effects by saccing them before it's your turn to pay the price.

[Draven]

I have already been looking at Hatching Plan's (HP) and these are some things I have noticed.

1. 4 PR and 4 HP = 8 slots (Most people don't run Intuition/Ak due to the number of cards it takes up and that is only 6 or 7)

2. Both PR and HP are pretty useless by themselves. PR can be cast, and "useful" but at the cost that was already mentioned. I do believe that sacking a Mox isn't too different than discarding a Mox, however, there are some subtle differences in the two cards, such as pitching excess Chalices, Null Rods, Needles, Crypts etc. to TFK. Not to mention the Fattie/Welder engine.

3. I believe if I read PR correctly and if it is spoiled correctly, the sacrificing of the perment is part of the effect, so if PR gets countered, you are stuck with no draw and a useless HP on the board still.

4. If you do get a HP out and are able to resolve a PR, you are getting +3 card advantage. Which is more than the Intuiton/AK engine or the TFK engine.

Here is my analysis. Compared to the current engines, PR/HP is more powerful (ie netting more cards), however, the cost is pretty steep, (need 2 cards, 4 mana [albeit spread out], and two spells to resolve). I would compare FoF to this engine, it costs 4 mana, nets 2-3 cards but only costs one card.

All in all, I think Teferi’s Response would be a better card to protect Wasted lands.

[edit] Fixed my terrible typing errors

[LotusHead]

Decks with Crucible of Worlds can abuse Perilous Research.

Resolve Perilous Research, sac a land. Play land from grave.  Nice, Tidy.

The Hatching Plans things sound fun, even in Standard/Casual.

[cssamerican]

This could be worth testing in a control oriented Bob-ToA deck.
Unlike TfK you can use the graveyard bound moxen to help pay the cost of the spell.
The sacrificing of moxen can make storm easier to reach when setting up a game ending Will..
Its converted mana cost is really low which has lots of synergy with Bob.
It allows you to put combat damage on the stack then draw the two cards, which would be great against decks like fish.
As mentioned before it can convert wasted Underground Seas into card advantage.
If you running low on life you can kill Bob or Mana Crypt before they kill you.
If you opponent hits Bob with removal you draw two cards for . (This to me is big simply because it is extremely difficult to protect Bob from Darkblast or Lava Dart.)

The only problem I see is when you don't have a Bob and it is in the early stages of a game. In this cases it seems like it would basically be a dead draw. However, it still draws two deep which means it could find a FoW in a pinch, and it itself is pitchable.That isn't saying much but there are cards being played that are less usefull than that in the early game, so it might not be that bad.

[meadbert]

Also you can cast this with combat damage on the stack.

For example I attack with Bob and my opponent blocks with Welder.  Now I a cast Research to sac my already dying Bob and draw two cards.

There are plenty of good uses!

[Draven]

Also you can cast this with combat damage on the stack.

For example I attack with Bob and my opponent blocks with Welder.  Now I a cast Research to sac my already dying Bob and draw two cards.

There are plenty of good uses!

Yes, but all of it's "good" uses are situational.

On turn 1, is land, mox Research (sac mox) a good play?

Is turn 2, land, land, mox TFK a good play?

I think the point is, if the situation is ideal, Research is better than alot of cards, however, alot of cards are better in most situations.

[StarOrc]

It seems that this might be pretty good in Stax.

Decks with Crucible of Worlds can abuse Perilous Research.

2. Both PR and HP are pretty useless by themselves. PR can be cast, and "useful" but at the cost that was already mentioned. I do believe that sacking a Mox isn't too different than discarding a Mox, however, there are some subtle differences in the two cards, such as pitching excess Chalices, Null Rods, Needles, Crypts etc. to TFK. Not to mention the Fattie/Welder engine.

I'm pretty sure someone tested HP in Stax in order to sac it to Smokestack as a draw engine, this would give you more "outs" as it were to sac the HP for cards.

Extra Tormod's Crypts can be played then sac'd, same with Chalices since their free (Chalice at 0 gets sac'd then the new one gets played)

Also Stax decks tend to have an exess of permenants to sac and some of them already tend to be useless, ie double lock pieces and Tangle Wires with no counters.

This could aslo take some of the sting away from the biggest Stax hoser, Rack and Ruin.

Yes, but all of it's "good" uses are situational.

This might be true, but there are many cards that are only good in the right situations. The biggest example I can think of is Goblin Welder, the decks that play him are ussually good at setting up the situations where he is VERY good, but he is still situational. How situational is Recoup?

On turn 1, is land, mox Research (sac mox) a good play?

Is turn 2, land, land, mox TFK a good play?

Both of these plays depend on the deck you are playing and the match-up. In some of the Gifts lists playing turn 2 Thirst without something to discard may be a mistake.

Star

[warble]

Making a comparison with Thirst for Knowledge is dumb because it's one less card and a far steeper penalty to pay to sack a permanent.  I can't afford to put this in a control deck because it might as well be skeletal scrying or Fact or Fiction or a Metagame hate card with all the tutors control decks run these days.  I can't afford to put it in an aggro deck because I have a hard enough time justifying playing brainstorm in the deck and god knows this is far worse than brainstorm.  What I can see playing this in is a storm combo deck with a buttload of blue, but then you've got repeal that is an answer and a card versus this which is two cards and a lost permanent.  However, in storm combo we also have Night's Whisper for B1 and we all know storm combo gets black mana easier than it gets blue.  Plus, there is no downside to night's whisper aside from life and I'd far rather pay 2 life than sac a permanent.  As Rich aptly noted we also can't find the room for Impulse which looks at the top 4 and draws the best and then makes them go to the bottom, for such cards as Darksteel Colossus and Mindslaver to be tinkered for the win.  I can't even find an ideal situation where I would want Research because I'm already split about playing mystical tutor and how the heck can I play this card over mystical tutor?  Honestly...

Also you can cast this with combat damage on the stack.

For example I attack with Bob and my opponent blocks with Welder.  Now I a cast Research to sac my already dying Bob and draw two cards.

There are plenty of good uses!

That's not a good use, that's an insane waste of a perfectly good creature and a card that could have been a tutor for tinker or a duress or...y'know...

And Stax has a hard enough time supporting thirst, you seriously think it wants to go down to 3 colors and play Force of Will be my guest...I'm not gonna do it in a tournament...

[Draven]

One thought I did just have... What about a sideboard card against Oath? It wouldn't let you win the attrition match, but will allow you to sack spuds occasionally to get some CA. Just a thought...

[49 Cents]

One thought I did just have... What about a sideboard card against Oath? It wouldn't let you win the attrition match, but will allow you to sack spuds occasionally to get some CA. Just a thought...

Wouldn't you rather have a card that just wins against Oath?

[Draven]

One thought I did just have... What about a sideboard card against Oath? It wouldn't let you win the attrition match, but will allow you to sack spuds occasionally to get some CA. Just a thought...

Wouldn't you rather have a card that just wins against Oath?

Hmmm, what card says "I win" against Oath?

[49 Cents]

One thought I did just have... What about a sideboard card against Oath? It wouldn't let you win the attrition match, but will allow you to sack spuds occasionally to get some CA. Just a thought...

Wouldn't you rather have a card that just wins against Oath?

Hmmm, what card says "I win" against Oath?

Jester's Cap, Plague or even Ray of Revalation are all better options IMO. Heck, you could be playing Edicts!

[Draven]

Those do seem pretty good. If you read my above post, you would notice I am not really in favor of this card, however, that would not stop me from trying to think outside the box.

[mistervader]

How about a deck that doesn't care about its permanents sticking around since it's trying to win in one turn?

In short, what are the things this card can do for Meandeck Tendrils?

[BreathWeapon]

How about a deck that doesn't care about its permanents sticking around since it's trying to win in one turn?

In short, what are the things this card can do for Meandeck Tendrils?

That's a good point, it would be just as good as Night Whispers and increase the blue count for Force of Will. Ofcourse you can't play it off Dark Ritual or Cabal Ritual, but I'm not certain I have enough experience with that deck to know whether or not it makes a significant difference.

[misslehead3]

That's a good point, it would be just as good as Night Whispers and increase the blue count for Force of Will. Ofcourse you can't play it off Dark Ritual or Cabal Ritual, but I'm not certain I have enough experience with that deck to know whether or not it makes a significant difference.

I dunno, I'm not Smenen or anything but I have a good amount of testing with MDT. It does NOT need black mana that much. It can produce a very helthy supply of both black and blue mana due to Chromatic Sphere and Darkwater Egg.

[TopSecret]

     For all those decks out there that need to sack a card as part of their strategy, this card is great!
It probably will not be played as a staple though, because Night's Whisper is pretty darn good.

     It is good with Hatching Plans, Sensei's Divining Top, and an Already Skullclamped Creature!

[Demonic Attorney]

Night's Whisper  1B

Sorcery

Draw two cards and lose two life.


Would you rather sacrifice a permanent or lose two life in the early game?  How about the mid game?

[nataz]

Would you rather sacrifice a permanent or lose two life in the early game?  How about the mid game?

How about ever. (cept of course when you are at 2 life)
Course its a shame Nights Whisper is a mainphase only deal, at insta speed it would be pretty sweet.

[That0neguy]

Personally this seems like an awsome include in SX over nights whisper.

First of all 2 life is still quite a bit in SX since spoils of the vault is a key card to the decks consitency.

Secondly, If you sac a mox to research you get to replay it with will ,although repeal con't get access to it.  Even if you don't have a mox to sac and just sac the land it won't really matter since you will probably not get another use out of the land while comboing.

People are probably going to argue that unlike whispers this can't be used as a setup spell like whispers can, since you are tradin 2/2 one of which being a precious mana source when stalled.  However, that 2 card boost can often win the game in SX, which might be overlooked when compared to what it would do in other decks.

[BreathWeapon]

Night's Whisper  1B

Sorcery

Draw two cards and lose two life.


Would you rather sacrifice a permanent or lose two life in the early game?  How about the mid game?

First, analyzing a card in comparison to another is pointless when done out of the context of a deck. Second, what matters is how the card functions in a deck, and in SX, the question is whether or not the increased blue count for Force of Will out of the SB is worth not being able to cast the card off Dark or Cabal Ritual and whether or not sacrificing a permanent is better or worse than taking 2 points of damage. Such an ascertion can't be made in SX with out testing the card, because it can be argued that sacrificng a permanent is irrelevant to a deck that is designed to win on turn one and that sacrificing that permanent is beneficial, because it increases threshold for Cabal Ritual and gives an additional accelerant for Yawgmoth's Will. The 2 damage from Night Whispers is ALWAYS relevant, because the deck utilizes Spoils of the Vault and Necropotence.

[Shmn]

I've been looking for a way to use Hatching Plans effectively, and when I learned of Perilous Research, I was quite thrilled. I've tried to incorporate them into a mono blue control deck, and this is the first version:

Note: Does not include P9 or mana drains. Obviously those who can use them should.

Perilous Plans v. 1.0

Spells (35)
4 Hatching Plans
4 Perilous Research
2 Merchant Scroll

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Muddle the Mixture
2 Misdirection

4 Chalice of the Void

3 Back to Basics
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vedalken Shackles

Creatures(2)
2 Morphling

Manasources (23)
19 Island
1 Strip Mine
1 Sol Ring
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond

--

As you can see, the whole drawing engine is built around Hatching Plans and Perilous Research. Merchant Scrolls and Muddle The Mixtures work as tutoring the components, while the rest of the deck is built rather traditionally, aiming to shut down the opponent effectively. I would appreciate feedback, of course, if it's not considered off-topic.

As for the useability of Perilous Research, I think that it's actually quite flexible - having the ability to make use of the sacrifice in response to removal spells. In the above listed deck, though, mostly artifacts will draw those spells' attention. Perhaps including phids would be worth it.

Comparing Intution + Accumulated Knowledge to Hatching Plans + Perilous Research

Intuition + AK is basically 5 or 7 mana in 2 or 3 cards for 3 or 7 cards. Hatching Plans + Perilous Research, on the other hand, is 4 mana in 2 cards for 5 cards. Intuition + AK only requires an Intuition in hand in order to work, and 3 initial mana. Then again it does need an AK to surpass HP+PR in cards, and Intuitions beyond the first yield little results; 7 cards is the maximum draw for AK's with an Intuition. Of course, Intuition can be used for benefit in other ways aswell, albeit less efficiently. By itself it brings no card advantage.

For HP+PR, that maximum is (3+2) * 4 = 20. Resolving PR is crucial, unless other means are used to get rid of HP (suggestions are of course welcome, but not many seem viable in competitive Vintage). The same applies to AK aswell, although arguably AK can be re-used more efficiently from the graveyard (with Yawgmoth's Will, for example, although only mana is stopping someone from resurrecting HP+PR).

Without HP, PR offers 2 cards for 1 permanent with the same mana cost as AK which offers 1-4 cards. In pure card advantage PR beats AK as a single (first) spell and they tie for the second. AK has discarding possibilities going for it aswell, as it effectively adds +1 draw to the next AK. PR, on the other hand offers applications in beneficial sacrifices such as Wasteland or Phyrexian Negator, or synergy with cards such as Crucible Of Worlds or Balance. One more thing I have not mentioned is the fact that although seemingly a dead card by itself, HP may prove useful against decks that play mass removal such as Nevinyrral's Disk (Landstill is kinda out of fashion, though, isn't it?) or Smokestack, for example.

In conclusion: in a deck that can make use of the sacrificing effect, HP+PR is superior, mainly because it offers a bigger total card advantage while keeping the cost of the sacrifice to a minimum. For many decks, Intuition + AK is still better, and granted metagame has an effect on the choice aswell. The usefulness of Intuition + AK versus other drawing engines can of course be looked at separately. Perhaps it would be more suitable to compare HP+PR to those, instead.

I'm definitely going to try it, and hopefully come back with more insight (and positive results!).

P.S. My first post!


//Shmn


Edit: V.1.2.

Spells (33)

4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
3 Back To Basics
2 Misdirection
2 Stifle
2 Muddle The Mixture

4 Perilous Research
3 Hatching Plans
1 Fact or Fiction

4 Powder Keg
2 Vedalken Shackles
1 Crucible Of Worlds
1 Sensei's Divining Top

Creatures (2)

2 Morphling

Manasources (25)

18 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Diamond