Does this bug you?

[Whatever Works]

I am not going to give exact names or details on this because that would be disrespectful and likely innapropriate so if you know who this is reffering to I would like to request now that you dont mention specific names. The intent of this topic is not to attack individuals but to instead bring into question a fairly common practice that I disagree with and believe is unfair.

At a recent SCG tournement I believe that one player (I honestly dont know his name) had a judge watching almost all of his matches throughout the day with a particular eye on his opponents. I myself didn't really notice this until later in the day when it was pointed out to me by SEVERAL well known and respected players from major teams who commonly post on the TMD.

I know there were several judges walking around tables throughout the event that I believe was extremely well officated overall. However, I questioned why one player who WORKS for SCG was receiving the type of attention that he was from one of the higher level judges.

I dont know if the judge was just watching for the sake of watching an entertaining match/deck. Or if he was trying to catch the SCG employees opponent in the wrong to help get SCG a more valuable prize to save money to help cut there OBVIOUS losses from the type 1 tournements on that day.

I want to make VERY clear that I am not attacking SCG or there policies. I enjoy there tournements and will continue to show my support through attendence. However, me and several other players have expressed concerns about such possible favoritism by judges in not just SCG, but in all tournements.

If I have made a mistake about the events that have happened on this specific event, or if my facts are in anyway wrong. Please, correct me! I am going off what I was told, and what I myself witnessed.

If this didnt happen but you were at a tournement and you believed that you did witness such an action would you be ok with this? I am 100% for fair play, but having a judge over your shoulder waiting for the slightly error to give a penalty is very nerve-racking and to a degree distracting.

[LordHomerCat]

As a MAJOR caveat:

If indeed this person was an SCG employee, were they being sponsored in this event by SCG?  How do you know that, if this person did indeed win, they intended to return the prize to the store?  I don't think SCG has rules about employees playing in their events (at least none that I have seen posted), so whats to stop an employee who isn't judging or working one day from playing as well?  It would explain a good reason a judge would be watching them (just out of interest for a friend: when I drop, I enjoy watching my friends' matches too).  This seems like a VERY important question that should be answered before you imply SCG was attempting to "rig" their own tournament to cut their losses (not that you are necessarily saying that, I don't know which way you voted, but it seems like a possible interpretation).

[Whatever Works]

That is indeed a very good question. I believe the person in question was one of the card dealers. However, I am not possitive. I am going off the sight of what I was told by several players and about 4 rounds of a judge carfully watching this SCG'ers opponents matches.

I have much more interest in the general question of: is this ok irrelevent of this 1 situation??? Because, I for 1 can swear on my life that I have seen it happen at other (usually smaller) events.

I am not trying to attack SCG. However, if it appears that I am that should show that this behavior as a whole is unacceptable. Because, If it was acceptable then I dont believe my post would be considered an accusation in such a negative sense of the word.

Kyle

[LordHomerCat]

As a general question, I see no qualms with asking.  Without any real evidence, I can't really comment on the SCG hypothetical that was posed.

In general, this is obviously wrong.  Any kind of favortism from judges is severly frowned upon.  Theres a reason for Penalty Guidelines and things like that, so that problem situations are the same everywhere, for everone.  If the player asked the judge to watch his match (because he suspected his opponent was a cheater, or stalled a lot), then it is fine, but if a Judge continues to watch a specific player the entire tournament, unless they believe that player needs to be watched, it sounds pretty fishy. 

HOWEVER, if the judge is being unbiased, and is carefully watching both his friend and the opponent for mistakes, and is equally strict with both of them, I see nothing wrong with watching a match.  Top8 matches have table judges, and if there was a way to have that many judges, there is no reason not to have someone watch every match closely.  The rules aren't there to try and DQ people, they are there to make everyone play fair, so every opportunity to avoid mistakes and broken rules should be taken, in my opinion.

[Harlequin]

I really don't buy the Conspiracy theory.  Think about it... The SGC crew plants ONE guy in the crowd, and assigned a judge to him HOPEING that they can steel wins because of accidental rule breaking.  So lets say this guy gets into top 8, and doesn't get caught by the community with his accomplis.  Then he volintarily gives his prize back to SCG with NO compensation at all, so they can recoup what? a couple hundred bucks??  Now what do they have to loose?  Well lets say that the judge goes overboard and gives out harsher than normal penalties, and people catch on!  Well then SCG looses face and probable looses hundreds MORE dollars on dropped attendance and potentially even less sales on the internet (because ppl no longer trust them).  Why would they risk it?   They would probably get more money if they sent that employee out to buy and sell cards for the entire day. 

Much more likely is the guy showed up for the event to judge it, but attendance was low, therefore they didn't need all the judges, and he helped them recoup $25 by paying entry into the tournement.  Then his friend/co-worker ended up spending time between judgement calls watching his friend compete - like well all do.  There is nothing dis-honest about that. 

I did not go to the last SCG p9 but I was in richmond.  I will say that Richmond was Judge suberbly.  I catch wind of anyone was inaccurately judged or was over punished.  Infact in a game next to me I actually heard a judge say "I'm pretty sure thats the way it goes, but I'm going to go check with the head judge..."  He was totally right, but he had only that 95% certainty about him, so he checked it!! Its amazing.  I have seen more blatently incorrect RULES judgements than I care to discuss... and I've seen even MORE un-fairly over punished judgements than that... but never at SCG.

[ashiXIII]

I think it's fine, as a judge, to watch your friends' matches. Even in the exact situation posted, I think it's fine to OBSERVE matches. However, whenever a judge is watching a match, that match should have FEWER penalties, not more. Judges are supposed to prevent these things if at all possible. I do not, however, think it is okay to watch a friend's opponents so that you can penalize them if they screw up. I think any judge doing this should lose their certification.

[kirdape3]

The same guy played in SCG Richmond day 2, as well as Head Judge Matt Villamaino.  Even if the judges at this event were keeping track a little more (or even a lot more) of the SCG employee than they were the other players, at REL 3 they're supposed to watch everybody like that :<.

[Bram]

As a hypothetical issue, this would be grey area material. Not completely kosher, but not exactly nauseating behaviour either.

In a concrete situation such as this, you'd better back up such claims with proof or eye witnesses, because otherwise, it's bordering on slander.

[Whatever Works]

As a hypothetical issue, this would be grey area material. Not completely kosher, but not exactly nauseating behaviour either.

In a concrete situation such as this, you'd better back up such claims with proof or eye witnesses, because otherwise, it's bordering on slander.

Your correct in calling the issue a "grey area" and that is what this topic was ment to discover. Are the actions presented crossing the line? The answer that seems to be showing up through posts is that its really up to a judges discression, and that the behavior would be more accepted if not expected to occur at higher rel events or at major tournements.

My post I guess could be considered borderline slander because I didnt back up my claims with eye witnesses. However, this was done on purpose because I didnt want to name any names for fear of possibly unjustly attacking a player/judge/event. I have witnesses, but I really would rather not get into any debate on he said/she said... or in the case of magic... He said/He said...

Harlequin your points are very solid and this could be considered a conspiracy theory in the case of SCG. However, I am sure everybody has had an experience where somebody at a tournement was in some form or another is trying to win the tournements own prize back for there store/sponcer etc.

[ctthespian]

I noticed interesting behavior of judges at SCG Richmond.  There were ceartin Judges watching what I'm assuming were friends matches all day.  Also during the final round a judge was watching the match of an assumed friend on table somewhere between 9-12, a table that had no contention for T8.  I almost requested the judge to leave the match I was playing one round because it was making me uncomfortable.

[Bram]

I almost requested the judge to leave the match I was playing one round because it was making me uncomfortable.

Yeah, good luck with that.

[ashiXIII]

I almost requested the judge to leave the match I was playing one round because it was making me uncomfortable.

Yeah, good luck with that.

I understand that having somebody watching your match can make you uncomfortable, especially if that person can give you penalties. However, it's never a good idea to request that a judge leave your match because it looks really, really, really shady to that judge. As a judge, I can guarantee you that I'd suspect something.

[outpost1]

"SCG Employee Playing in T8. Head judge watches all of his opponents like a hawk in hopes of catching a violaton."

Wrong, but thank you for phrasing your accusation as if it was a fact. Even *if* the head judge was watching each of the matches in question, please explain to me how you would know that he is only doing so in the hopes of “catching a violation” by any one specific player?

“Thus, SCG saves themselves money by winning back a Black Lotus?”

Wrong again. Star City employees, friends, writers, etc. play in Star City Events all the time, and always have. They pay their own entry fees, are not “sponsored” by Star City, keep 100% of any prizes that they win for themselves and are treated the same as any other player. We are a professional organization that has never, and will never, tolerate any sort of shenanigans or biases.

“Note: His opponents were the ONLY people being carefully watched by judges.”

You have absolutely no way of knowing if that’s true, so why are you publicly stating it as if it was fact?

That said, if anyone has any questions (on this, or any issue), please let me know either here or privately at outpost1@starcitygames.com. I will answer your questions and address your concerns as best as I can.

[Bram]

And with that, I'd like to conclude this thread, which will otherwise no doubt degenerate into random accusations. I mean, we all agree that if it were true, it'd be somewhat wrong-ish, most of us seem to think it didn't happen, and even if it did, there's no point in discussing it unless someone miraculously caught the alleged incident on tape.

Notthing to see here, people ;-)