[Deck] U/W Fish

[Everrid1234]

Hi,

I would like to read comments about the deck I am currently playing.
The Deck differs a bit from the Standard lists, I would like to discuss about some of my choices.

I meet all kinds of decks, so i want to have an all-around deck which can beat aggro, combo and control of all kinds.
So I don't need hints which change the deck into an aggro-, combo- or control-killerdeck.

Especially the ability to fight aggro is important for me.

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

1 Ancestral Recall
3 Standstill

2 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Meddling Mage
3 Icatian Javelineers
3 Stormscape Apprentice
3 Rootwater Thief
3 Kataki

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle

3 Null Rod

3 Swords to Plowshares


SB:

3 Old Man of the Sea
3 Seal of Cleansing
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod
2 Orim's Chant
2 Sacred Ground

The choices:

6 1cc-Creatures to bring Ninja in, tap fast Colossus or shoot Welder and Confidant.
Rootwater Thief is slow but removing Akroma, Simic Sky Swallower, Will, Burning Wish or Slaver can be game-determining.
I like this guy very much and he often is a threat. Playing a Meddling Mage after having seen the lib is also nice. At least he is a 1/2 flyer for 2 Mana. He lets me save Extracts in SB for other choices.

The mana base is stable, I thought about only putting in 3 Tundra and one more Island but with Kataki the ability to get a white Mana second turn i think 4 Tundra are better.
I play 3 Stifle.

Kataki is a nice creature, it combines Stax-/Affinity-/Slaver-Hate and others with attacking.
It replaces the Spiketail Hatchling in this deck and has a similar effect against most T1 decks.
The Katakis replace the Spiketail Hatchlings which are also nice but Kataki is stronger imo.

I play Standstill since its broken by the opponent 99% of the time i play it. Curiosity isnt a choice for me since i hate to lose 2 cards to the enemy playing only 1 or he blocks my weak creatures (remember, im not playing in a specific meta).

2 Ninja is the right number for me.
3 Stifle because I dont want to put one in the SB and the Fetchdenial completes the Mana denial.

The SB-choices:



Old Man: Costs 3 Mana but can steal a critter each turn, block with it and take a new one. Very good imo against most of all Aggro decks.
Jitte: I thought about Sword of Fire and Ice but the Jitte is one turn faster. I am not completely sure about this but Old man being the only 3cc-drop seems better. Since Jitte is so strong against aggro it shouldnt stress too much having Jitte AND Kataki out the same time.
Seal vs Disenchant: I want to tap only leaving one Mana open thats the reason. It is worse against Stax and better against all other decks. Dropping this early is a big advantage.
Sacred Ground: I would like to put in 3 of them....
Orim's Chant: Vs Tendrils and maybe Oath and Aggro
No Chalice because it gets bounced by Hurkyls etc.

So what do you think of this?

[Yare]

I hate to burst your bubble, but this list is fairly run of the mill for fish.  There isn't anything terribly innovative or different about this list.

Additionally, run four Null Rod maindeck.  It's that good.

[the boogie man]

One thing that I have been tinkering with is adding 4 sheltering ancients from coldsnap. with aether vials, the cc is hardly an issue, and oxidize is awsome to have anyway. the only creatures that come down early enough to matter are welders and other goblins, and against aggro these guiys go out anyway. but these guys create a humongous clock, especially if you are running a lot of stifles.

[Everrid1234]

Ok lets say its nottinovative
And lets say I dont want to play any green spells.

So what could I improve?

[DoubleDrain]

One thing that I have been tinkering with is adding 4 sheltering ancients from coldsnap. with aether vials, the cc is hardly an issue, and oxidize is awsome to have anyway. the only creatures that come down early enough to matter are welders and other goblins, and against aggro these guiys go out anyway. but these guys create a humongous clock, especially if you are running a lot of stifles.

it seems the ancients would be dead draws against gifts, grim long, or other creature-light decks. if you are worried about your aggro machups, and if indeed aggro is the dominant archtype in your area, then i would suggest playing a different deck altogether, since fish decks tend to roll to other 'true' aggro decks like gobbos, shop aggro, etc...

[Everrid1234]

Fish is not a deck which other aggro decks are fearing, thats clear.
But I think with a good sideboard you can win against good aggro decks.

This is the deck i play after boarding vs. Aggro:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

1 Ancestral Recall
3 Old Man of the Sea

2 Orim's Chant

4 Meddling Mage
3 Icatian Javelineers
3 Stormscape Apprentice
3 Rootwater Thief
3 Kataki

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Stifle

3 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares


Things I would like to discuss (explaining the reasons for your opinion):

Disenchant/Seal of Cleansing/Annul
Play Time Walk?
How many Stifle main?
Better anti-aggro-choices then Old Man and Jitte? (not Waterfront Bouncer)
How many Kataki main?
How many Tundra`? Maybe a Polluted Delta instead of the 4th Tundra?
How many Ninjas?

[AmbivalentDuck]

Sword of Fire and Ice is the biggest card you have against aggro.  Serendib Efreet is also quite good.  They both exploit the Wakefield principle, but SoFI additionally gives you cards and removal.

Orim's Chant does not belong in your deck.  There are few situations where it's more useful than an actual threat.  If you're using it to prevent combat damage, better cards exist.

Rootwater Thief is only marginally useful without 3+ Moxen.  In order for it to be a real threat, it has to come online turn 2.

You'd be an idiot *NOT* to run Time Walk.  You're playing a tempo deck and Time Walk fundamentally gives you an additional turn's tempo.

Stifle >> Daze because of the above-mentioned tempo.  Having Wastelands 5-8 can buy enormous amounts of tempo for you and make your opponent pop fetches prematurely to play around a threat that may not even be in your hand.  Not to mention protecting your Factories from Wastelands.

Oh, and Tormod's Crypt >> Null Rod.  Your 2 drop slot is too full as is.  It does the same thing as Null Rod: it makes tempo.  The difference is, it doesn't eat up as much of your tempo.



EDIT: My first post had virtually no content, oops.

[Everrid1234]

Hi AmbivalentDuck,

please be a bit more sppecific.
How would you build the deck?

A Fish deck with Tormods Crypt, a lot of Moxen, Time Walk and no Dazes and Null Rods?
How should this work? Which creatures would you include?

As I said i am not seeing a Gifts-Metagame or something like that, I just like to be flexible.

[Harlequin]

You basically have 2 fairly good paths to take:
So Appart from the real meat of th deck (Mages, Force, etc...)

Beatdown Speed:
5 Moxen
3 Wasteland
4 Factories

2-3 Jite
1-2 SoFI

2-3 Serendib Efreet
2-3 Old Man
2-3 Silver/White Knight (first strike for the win)
0-2 Exaulted Angel
0 Kataki
0 Rootwater Thief

0 Null Rod
0 Daze
2-3 Stifle
2-3 Swords to Plowshare

-------------------------------------
Or Mana Denial
4 Wasteland
3 Factories
1 Library of Alexandria
2 Moxen

2-3 Kataki
3-4 Ninja
4 Evasion creatures (Soldevi Soldier, Flying Men, Greyscale)
1-2 Old man

2-3 Curiosity

3-4 Null Rods
2-3 Daze
3-4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plow

0 Equipment

======================

Without a good break down of metagame its hard to judge which deck is better.  Both decks are very much for different metagames.  The Beat down deck would be good in that middle-meta: Decently constructed mono-color decks, low-mid powered, and would have a decent game agaist Shop-Agro.  As far as aggro is concerned, you've got a trump card for each stage of the game: For the early game, Man-lands and 2cc First strikers (the protection is gravy) will slow your opponent's 1 and 2 drops.  For the mid game, you've got Jite and Effreet to dominate the baord.  And If you get into one of those annoying aggro vrs aggro creature stalemates, you can break through with a SoFI weilding Exaulted Angel.  Basically any aggro deck is going to have a rough time stareing down an angrey Swordwielding agnel.

The Mana Denial Decks would do better against a higher power meta.  In a meta with fewer creatures, you can ride cards like Curious Flying man to card advantage victory.  In a deck like that, you want to be chalk full of stile, Null Rod, and Dazey goodness.  In this type of meta, your likely to see Welder, Agels, and DSC for 90% of all creatures you face.  For this reason, it is of upmost importance to have 4 swords to plowshare.  Basically your admitting that you cannot beat big guys.  In this deck your setting out to win the small war.  Stifleing fetchlands, Kataki/Rod, and Mages all work together to hold the "window" open for you to get your 20 damage of beats in. 

Essentaily the fish philosophy is this.  I need to deal 20 damage to win... So all I have to do, is prevent you from winning while I attack for a total of 20 damage.  The first deck, deals 20 damage more quickly so in theory it needs to hold that window open for a shorter period of time.  The second deck wins more slowly, so It needs to be packing a bigger card advantage package with access to more control cards.  The theory being, with those tools you can hold the window open for longer.

[Everrid1234]

Erm...thanks, i know the philosophy behind Fish....

The Aggro-Style deck doesnt have enough denial for my needs....

[Harlequin]

Erm...thanks, i know the philosophy behind Fish....

The Aggro-Style deck doesnt have enough denial for my needs....

I'm not sure what you want outa the community.  If your looking to improve the deck, you might want to be a bit more receptive to suggestions.  If you just want to shoot down everyones ideas untill someone says "OMG this deck is perfect the way it is!! you rox!!"  Then perhaps this isn't the right place to post the deck. 

When your playing fish, I would suggest going one side of the road or the other.  Being a jack of all trades but master of none, is a good way to ensure that you suck equally against the entire field. If your sitting there saying: "well the aggro version doesnt have enough denial, and the denial version doesnt have enough speed"  Then I think you ought to stop playing WU fish until they print some god-awsome cards for it.  Working within the constraints of the current cardpool your speed/deinal ratios are limited by the fact that you only run 60 or 61 cards In any given deck.

[AmbivalentDuck]

No offense, but UW is suboptimal in any environment that isn't mostly Drain-based control.  If your environment involves *any* 3/3 or larger creatures, you really ought to play a different deck.  UW is *not* a deck that can beat the field.  You metagame it to beat *a* non-aggro field.

If you want a solid game against everything, play Grim Long.

[Adan]

I don't like the Aggro-Style. I has got almost no denial. Savannah Lions and Isamarus are not good. I prefer creatures with have got some usefull abilities.

And i don't understand why so many people play Old Man of the Sea. I heard almost no one play Dark Confidant in America.
And even IF,i think Icatian Javelineer is the better choice.

I play U/W Fish myself and my Decklist looks like this:

3 Null Rod
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Curiosity
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Mystical Tutor
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Stifle
3 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Meddling Mage
1 Disenchant
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Icatian Javelineers
2 Kataki, War's Wage



Lands (22):
4 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Plains
1 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland

One different thing is, that i play Mystical Tutor instead of a 4th StoP(because the Tutor virtually can be the 4th StoP. And he fetches the Ancestral Recall and maybe Time Walk,if you own one) and a random Disenchant( here,again the Tutor can virually be the 2nd Disenchant).
But you don't need to play Mystical Tutor and Disenchant.

Creature Base should be clear:

Meddling Mage: He can massiveley disturb any Deck...except Friggorid i think...

Icatian Javelineer: A Fallen Empires Card in Vintage? WTF?! But wait,he can handle Goblin Welder and Dark Confidant faster than Old Man of the Sea can. And he has got a little synergy with Ninja of the Deep Hours.

Ninja of the Deep Hours: Can come in in Turn 2 and because Vintage NORMALLY is a non-aggro format,he's a 2/2 beater with Curiosity effect.

Stormscape Apprentice: One-Mana-Critter which taps away DSC and Oath-Angels for 1 Mana. Also good with Ninja.

Kataki, War's Wage: Also a good beater. A littlebit worse than Null Rod,but his Mini-Flux Effect makes the Moxen which are already on the board nearly useless. So,we can say that he's a beating Null Rod Nr. 4 and 5(and maybe Nr.6).

Other Card Choices:

Null Rod: Ah,this one needs no explanation. Disables all kind of Artifact Mana,Mindslaver,Triskelion and so on

Stifle: Counters Fetchland and counters Storm. That's why i play 4 of them,because i always thought 3 are not enough,but that's only my opinion,you must know that youself. But i think they are just amazing. They truly can screw the opponent together with Null Rod/Kataki.

Disenchant: I once saw a list with 2 Disenchants maindecked. I wanted to do it as well,but one of them was replae by Mystical Tutor,which can fetch the random Disenchant.

Mystical Tutor: He's virtually the 2nd Disenchant,the 2nd Ancestral Recall and the 4th StoP. And maybe the 2nd Timewalk,if you play Timewalk.

Curiosity vs. Standstill

Curiosity:

Pro:
- Like the Ninja,it can draw card from the 2nd turn with one of the 1 Mana Critters and generates Cardadvantage. The advantage is even bigger when enchanting Ninja of the Deep Hours.
- You can freely play spells.

Cons:
- You need a critter to draw cards with it.

Standstill:

Pro:
- Prevents the opponent to play spells,because he would give you Cardadvantyge.
- Draws 3 Cards.

Cons:
- Prevents you to play other spells.
- Sometimes dead,like when your opponent has resolved a Oath.
- The Time he gains sometimes is also good for the opponent. TPS just waits,then cracks Standstill with Duress,stealing a dangerous Spell from your hand and then kills you with Tendrils.

So,summarizing the facts: Standstill is no longer good and that he was the best unpowered Carddraw is also long time ago.

So,imo a U/W Fish should be built like this. Not exactly like my build up there,but Fish has got 1 main target:

Dragging my opponent down to MY speed and preventing him to do broken things. Then my critters should finish him off in a few turns.

That's why i think such Cardchoices like Savnannah Lions,Serendib Efreet and Old Man are just stupid,because they are incredibly slow and just don't hinder the opponent from doing broken things/gain cardadvantage/beating you with DSC/whatever.

So long for the U/W Fish with Null Rod.

But there's another Verson with Chalice of the Void and Aether Vial.

And i really like this Build:

U/W Fish
Paul Nicolo
3rd place at a StarCityGames Power 9 Tournament tournament in Chicago, Illinois, United States on 2005-10-30
 
Maindeck:

Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
1 Black Lotus
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

Creatures
4 Meddling Mage
3 Ninja Of The Deep Hours
3 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Voidmage Prodigy

Enchantments
3 Standstill

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Force Of Will
3 Swords To Plowshares

Legendary Creatures
3 Kataki, War's Wage

Sorceries
1 Time Walk

Basic Lands
2 Island
1 Plains

Lands
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
4 Silver Knight
3 True Believer
3 Energy Flux
3 Annul
2 Disenchant

But the Sideboard is very strange. Energy Flux is not that good against Stax,especially when you already play Kataki together Chalice and Aether Vial in the Maindeck. Imo it should be replaced with Sacred Ground. With Chalice and Vial the Permanent-Rush against Stax should be good and the Matchup is not that horrible than the matchup with Rod-Fish.

And the Silver Knights,LOL. What are they good for? Against Aggro,Umezawa's Jitte just win Games,but Silver Knights don't.
And FCG  is out-dated afaik.

And the Stormscape Apprentice sometimes are also not that good,because sometimes you want to play a Chalice of the Void with 1 counter. And the Vial should always be at 2. And then,Stormscape Apprentice rots in your hand and just pitches to Force of Will.

I replaced them with Azorius Guildmage,because he's the next-best wizard with CC2. His effects are expansive,but good(tapping fatties,countering Fecthland,Strip-Effects).

In this build,Standstill IS good,because Aether Vial allows you to bring in Critters even when Standstill is on the table.And Aether Vial sometimes IS insane. TPS plays spells,then has got no handcards,plays Yawg Win,plays more spells and then Tutors for Tendrils, But before the Tutor resolves you just use the Vial to bring in Meddling Mage,naming Tendrils.

The true Believers are also good,because they also prevent the Opponent to play Gifts Ungiven. Gifts must target an Opponent,but when you're vialing in a true Believer,you will become an illegal target for Gifts Ungiven. And then Gifts just fizzles. And Tendrils of Agony and the 100 copies also do so.

Fish can be good and it has got good matchups.Aggro is an unfavorable matchup,but it's not an auto-loss. And Vialfish has got a excellent permanent race against Stax,but loses to other Fishes playing Null Rod.

Both versions have got their preferences.

[Liek]

That's my old Fish deck, and it's fairly outdated now. A few things I'd like to comment upon/correct from your post..

The Fluxes in the board powered me through the first two rounds of that tournament, through two Stax matchups. The card is such a bomb against them, having it and Kataki just increases the chance of finding such a bomb. Aether Vial will die when it comes down, but so will all of thier stuff, or at least enough of thier stuff to stop them from doing anything.

I was expecting one Goblin pairing at that tournament, or at least another Fish deck. The Knights are strong off a Vial against the format's aggro decks, and have recently come in handy against Ichorid, especially when carrying Jitte.

Stormscape Apprentice is in the deck because it costs 1. There are plenty of 2 mana guys with similar abilities, but he makes it in to make the deck's mana curve better.

This deck beats Fish with Null Rods, especially if they leave Rods in post-board. They really don't do anything except turn off Vial, so I'm usually pretty happy to see my opponent use two mana and a card to get almost nothing. Aether Vial is the heart of the deck, but the deck can function without it.

Standstill is outdated now. Here are its disadvantages:

It gets Mana Drained.
Combo plays Duress, breaks the Standstill, and takes the counterspell you'll draw from it.
It cannot be cast in an aggro mirror, or terrible things will happen.
It doesn't effect the board against Stax.
It cannot be cast when Oath of Druids is in play.

And most importantly, it costs a lot of mana and doesn't actually disrupt the opponent. Until you actually get cards from it, the card doesn't hurt the opponent at all, and even when you draw from it, it may be too late to stop them, since you spent your mana on it instead of a disruptive card.

Dark Confidant is a far more powerful card advantage option. Try this list:

3 Stormscape Apprentice
4 Meddling Mage
4 Voidmage Prodigy
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours
4 Dark Confidant

4 Force of Will
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Aether Vial
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus

4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
3 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard:
2 Disenchant
2 Annul
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Silver Knight
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Energy Flux
1 Tormod's Crypt

I recently split a piece of power with this list. It's still very similar to my older deck, but has more threats and more blue mana sources, and a sideboard with more answers and more business. Mox Pearl was a casualty for this list, but I often found myself wishing it was another land, as stupid as that might sound.

Anyways, despite Aether Vial being awsome, most people still like to rely on Null Rods anyways. Play whichever version you like more, but I find this to be the most optimal Aether Vial-based Fish deck available.

[Mantis]

Standstill is terrible because Gifts/Combo Slaver/Combo will build up their landbase and their hand while they take a couple of beats, play a tutor or draw spell EOT and you will be forced to discard down to 7 so you both have 7 cards in hand at the start of the next turn while you have just given up a buttload of tempo and allow them to combo off with their mana. Oh yes, you might have dealt them some damage but your goal is not to bring them down to 1 and to be able to call it a close game but to actually win the thing. Confidant is just sooo much better, being a threat and if it lives to see the untap phase you already gained the amount of cardadvantage that comes from a broken Standstill (Confidant + a card drawn = 2 opposed to 3 cards off Standstill minus the Standstill itself = 2.)

Curiosity is also terrible as you will get 2 for 1-ed soo often with that card. Play it on a critter and your opponent plays Dorkblast or a bounce spell. It also requires you to play terrible cards like Flying Men, a laughable threat. A lot of people get fooled because it looks like it brings home victory while other cards actually do.

Dark Confidant and Ninja of the Deep Hours combined with Stormscape Apprentice is the best drawengine for Fish. Stormscape Apprentice is just so awesome, it's a one mana costed answer to Colossus and Oath. It can bring home the victory in stalemates and can win under a Moat. More importantly, it ensures your Ninja to get through. It can serve as the Ninjitsu target itself or tap down the opposition to make sure you can Ninja out your own creatures.

Some question to Liek:
I see you run no basic lands, I've been doing the same for quite a while because I think Vial and fetchies are enough to stop Wasteland. But wouldn't you want another fetchland to ensure you will have the proper mana available and be a little more Wasteproof.

You always had the white mox in your deck, how come you dropped it (correct me if wrong)? Kataki, StP, Bob, Meddling Mage, Apprentice(tap), Chalice, Factory and Vial can all be paid of the Mox. Postboard you are likely to bring in even more white/artifact cards.

I truly like this deck, but haven't played it in ages as I play CS now and have obviously tested SS and URBan Fish. But I'll be more than happy to pick it up again and maybe provide some new tech. I'll let you hear, props to the deck.

[Yare]

Curiosity is also terrible as you will get 2 for 1-ed soo often with that card. Play it on a critter and your opponent plays Dorkblast or a bounce spell. It also requires you to play terrible cards like Flying Men, a laughable threat. A lot of people get fooled because it looks like it brings home victory while other cards actually do.

Eh, I don't know that I agree with this entirely.  The fact that you only have to swing once with Curosity to get the card investment back makes it playable in my opinion.  A lot of decks aren't really running that much spot removal.  That being said, I wouldn't run Curiosity as a 4-of anymore.  I would run 2 or 3; more than that tends to clog the deck a bit, at least in my experience, because you end up with Curiosity and no creature to play.

Oh, and I would still play Flying Men over Stormscape Apprentice.  Sure, Apprentice does tap stuff, but Flying Men allows Curiosity and Ninja to do their thing.  That, and he is almost always swinging, whereas Stormscape Apprentice is usually stuck behind a wall of blockers.  Fish needs to always be advancing its gameplan; not just staving off the inevitable.

Oh, and at least 1-2 basic lands is probably necessarily if you want to have a prayer against Stax.  It just makes life a lot easier and less calculated n general if you know you're facing Wastelands.

While I'm sitting here clicking "modify" over and over, Javelineers are a house.  Don't let anyone talk you out of using them.  They were previously just good for Welder, but now they have Confidant to hit.

[BreathWeapon]

Flying Men is a terrible card, they don't advance your game state especially when you don't have 4 Curiousity in your deck. There is no such thing as a wall of blockers in Vintage, unless by wall of blokers you meen a Colossus, Angels, Welders, Shamans, Confidants, Swarms, Ichorids, Ashen Ghouls, Juggernauts and Su-Chi. Stormscape Apprentice actually has an affect on the game state, which is what every creature in a Fish deck must have in order to be considered for inclusion.

I don't think the U/w versions and Aether Vial offer anything relevant, Aether Vial allows you to generate threats under Standstill and frees mana for Man Land activations, but it takes up spots that could be better used for disruption like Duress, Daze or Stifle. Ninja of the Deep Hours is no Dark Confidant, not only does he set you back in tempo, but he releases important pressure when you return Meddling Mage and Voidmage Apprentice to your hand.

I'm not big on Swords to Plowshares either, a mix of Stormscape Apprentice and Ication Javelineers usually gets the job done against the decks you are designed to beat and Sword of Firce/Ice is better against the decks you are not designed to beat.

[Liek]

Some question to Liek:
I see you run no basic lands, I've been doing the same for quite a while because I think Vial and fetchies are enough to stop Wasteland. But wouldn't you want another fetchland to ensure you will have the proper mana available and be a little more Wasteproof.

You always had the white mox in your deck, how come you dropped it (correct me if wrong)? Kataki, StP, Bob, Meddling Mage, Apprentice(tap), Chalice, Factory and Vial can all be paid of the Mox. Postboard you are likely to bring in even more white/artifact cards.

I'm an idiot, there's one Island and one Plains in the deck. I must have forgot to type them in.

As silly as not playing Moxes sounds, I really don't have enough to do with white mana to want another white source in the deck. However, a Mox is probably better than something else that taps for white (perhaps a Tundra,) so I may make a change soon.

[kirdape3]

With my (admittedly vastly) different build, I crutched so badly on colored mana - Mox Pearl didn't tap for {W/U}, and neither did Mox Sapphire.  I would honestly consider cutting Mox Pearl from your list, and Mox Sapphire from mine.

[Everrid1234]

Ok, some further comments, especially about Adan's list:

Aren't you playing moxes because you don't have them or because you added Rods and Katakis to the list?
I dont know how well the Curiosities work, we discussed a bit on www.2say.de but I still think that it could be a bit of a problem having a critter, Ninja and Curiosity in the starting hand. This will happen sometimes.

In a powered low-aggro meta I still think Standstill is the better choice, especially when you play 4 Stifle main which is a good choice. But its a personal choice.
The only option for a better draw are Brainstorm (no card advantage but good with mystical and 5+ Fetches), Standstill Curiosity and Confidant. So I think all is said that can be said.

The Disenchant for me is more for the side because even if you have virtually 2 Disenchants in the decks it seems a bit late vs. Oath or Stax and against a lot of decks they aren't useful. Better play a further Kataki is my opinion, it is an extremely good card. I play 3 Katakis, with 3 Null Rods it is nearly overkill artifact hate.

I am also trying to pack in a third Ninja but at least 7 1cc-critters are needed for this.

Adan, what does your SB look like? Sacred ground is indeed the strongest weapon against Stax, it hits its main tactic.

About UBW-Fish: I think Dark Confidant is good (though not this overwhelmingly good as in Dark TPS etc. because hitting yourself against TPS or aggro doesn't let you live longer) but the 3c-manabase doesn't make it playable in Wasteland-dense metas. He is better in this new EBA becasue with negators you kill much faster. It think UW is still the better chioce.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR ME:

What are the best anti-aggro-cards (not regarding the colors of the enemy decks), againt decks like Gobbos, Madness and others?

For me its Old Man/WF Bouncer and Jitte. Jitte over Sword of Fire and Ice because I don't play flyers (ok Thief...but its not a real flyer). Also possible: Waterfront Bouncer, Avenger-en-Dal, Overtaker, Cho-Arrim Alchemist or Serendib Efreet. But i like the idea of stealing Goblins with Old Man and blocking the Piledrivers with them. But maybe he is a bit too slow for my plans. The other suggestions bind much mana so I think Waterfront Bouncer is a compromise. Keeping the big treats from the table hoping to get Jitte running.

And don't say that Fish is bad vs. Aggro. I want hints for Fish vs. Aggro no matter what you think how the matchup is.

Current list:

Modifications: Main: nothing
                   SB: +1 Kataki -1 Sacred Ground (both strong, Kataki more flexible
                         +3 Waterfront Bouncer -3 Old Man (not sure, but he is a bit faster and can handle all creatures, more flexible (Oath, Dragon))

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

1 Ancestral Recall
3 Standstill

2 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Meddling Mage
3 Icatian Javelineers
3 Stormscape Apprentice
3 Rootwater Thief
3 Kataki

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle

3 Null Rod

3 Swords to Plowshares


SB:

3 Waterfront Bouncer
3 Seal of Cleansing
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Sacred Ground
1 Stifle

[Yare]

In a powered low-aggro meta I still think Standstill is the better choice, especially when you play 4 Stifle main which is a good choice.

You seem to be suggesting that you can Stifle Standstill here.  You can't; it will just trigger again in response to Stifle.

[Zol]

This is my list, like many other people have already said the lists for fish aren't terribly inovative anymore, however, this one does have some decent changes to it. The removal of Ninja makes it so you do not have to depend on really bad 1cc men, and on top of that you can move into better utility guys, generally speaking the curiosity is better to pitch to FOW and is also just a bit faster. I play in the chicago area, so Magus of the Unseen was almost an auto include. There are better things you can be doing with your creature base than worrying about Bob or welders. Bob can be easily taken out via STP, and while that is going on, win conditions can be removed through the looters. If against stax you can just plain not worry about anything because magus takes their crucibles negating their lock on you, or null rod+kitaki locks them down. Fish should be running a greater number of permanents than stax anyway, so there isnt much of a problem there at all. Not sure what to tell you though about fish being fantastic or any of that garbage, i myself am moving onto that izzet deck as it is tons more fun to pilot.

Land
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sorceries
1 Time Walk

Artifacts
4 Null Rod
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

Enchantments
3 Curiosity

Creatures
4 Meddling Mage
4 Rootwater Thief
3 Kataki
3 Magus of the Unseen

Instants
4 Force of Will
2 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall

SB:
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Old Man of the Sea
4 Pithing Needle
3 Exalted Angel
2 Fire/Ice

[Implacable]

In a powered low-aggro meta I still think Standstill is the better choice, especially when you play 4 Stifle main which is a good choice.

You seem to be suggesting that you can Stifle Standstill here.  You can't; it will just trigger again in response to Stifle.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Yare, but can't you play a spell and make the stack look like this?

Stifle (targetting Standstill trigger)
Standstill Trigger
Initial Spell

That way, if you need to, you can play a spell into 'Still and not let them get the cards.  Still, it does suck.

[dre4m]

In a powered low-aggro meta I still think Standstill is the better choice, especially when you play 4 Stifle main which is a good choice.

You seem to be suggesting that you can Stifle Standstill here.  You can't; it will just trigger again in response to Stifle.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Yare, but can't you play a spell and make the stack look like this?

Stifle (targetting Standstill trigger)
Standstill Trigger
Initial Spell

That way, if you need to, you can play a spell into 'Still and not let them get the cards. Still, it does suck.

No, the Standstill will trigger again because of the Stifle.  The stack would look like this:
Random Spell => Standstill Trigger => Stifle => Standstill Trigger
Any spells added to the stack after the first will trigger the Standstill again, and any triggers before the last (in this case, the one you Stifled) will do nothing because the Standstill will be sacrificed as a result of the last one, and the player will draw three cards.

[Implacable]

In a powered low-aggro meta I still think Standstill is the better choice, especially when you play 4 Stifle main which is a good choice.

You seem to be suggesting that you can Stifle Standstill here.  You can't; it will just trigger again in response to Stifle.

Correct me if I'm wrong, Yare, but can't you play a spell and make the stack look like this?

Stifle (targetting Standstill trigger)
Standstill Trigger
Initial Spell

That way, if you need to, you can play a spell into 'Still and not let them get the cards. Still, it does suck.

No, the Standstill will trigger again because of the Stifle.  The stack would look like this:
Random Spell => Standstill Trigger => Stifle => Standstill Trigger
Any spells added to the stack after the first will trigger the Standstill again, and any triggers before the last (in this case, the one you Stifled) will do nothing because the Standstill will be sacrificed as a result of the last one, and the player will draw three cards.

Thank you for illuminating that.

[Everrid1234]

So what about the best weapons vs. Aggro?
I think regarding Gobbos and other "normal" aggro its the Old Man.
I dont need WF Bouncers so much....i have Weapons vs. Oath and Dragon (a lot) and against the rest of the decks the Old Man is better (WF Bouncer cant win me lategames vs. 2/2 creatures). The Bouncers are good, no question. But in an Aggro meta there is no big sense in using them.

Avenger is great but the activation cost is high and the enemy wont attack but just drop neew creatures seeing that i have 3 Mana open. Makes no sense.

My current list:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

1 Ancestral Recall
3 Standstill

2 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Meddling Mage
3 Icatian Javelineers
3 Stormscape Apprentice
3 Rootwater Thief
3 Kataki

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle

3 Null Rod

3 Swords to Plowshares


SB:

3 Jotun Grunt (vs. Aggro, Dragon, Tendrils,Stax (removing Will targets)
4 Disenchant
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Null Rod
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Sacred Ground

SB: -1 Stifle +1 Seal , Simic Sky Swallower is the reason.

Zol, maybe there are the better creatures in your deck, but it is overload for the cc2 slot.
They are too expensive imo.
Playing Jitte makes 1cc creatures also much better.
Stormscape and Icatian are very good (ok, Stormscape not this much in a Stax meta...)

The manabase is good but in 1/3 of the games i miss a color in the early game.... but i would have to cut manlands to improve this which are very good.

[Yare]

Regarding this latest list, a few things.

Regarding the manabase, I could see adding one more source (probably Black Lotus), but not doing this would probably be ok.

You still don't have 4 Null Rods.  This deck will not be optimal until you get 4 in the maindeck. 

I wouldn't count on winning the aggro matchup, even with Old Man and Jitte.  Jitte has terrible synergy with Null Rod, although you might be able to just make that direct exchange to negate the issue.  I would run 4 Energy Flux before running 4 Seal of Cleansing in the sideboard; it's much more effective against stax in general and also pitches to Force.  Why run Sacred Ground over Crucible of Worlds?  I personally do not like Standstill (anymore), essentially because you can run either another Ninja and/or Curiosity over it.  I probably would up the maindeck to 4 Javelineers and remove 1 Kataki to make the change.  If you can find a way to cram Time Walk in there, I would do it.

Regarding the best weapons against Aggro, all I can suggest is Javelineers, a bunch of Swords to Plowshares, and possibly some bounce, either in the form of echoing truth or chain of vapor.  I wouldn't run Waterfront Bouncer; it just doesn't do enough for it to be worth a slot, maindeck or sideboard.

[brianpk80]

... Why run Sacred Ground over Crucible of Worlds? 

In general, Crucible might have a slightly wider applicability than the Stax matchup.  But if you're looking for a Stax-specific sideboard card, Sacred Ground is much stronger.  First, it tends to completely negate the Smokestack, whereas with Crucible you still have to race a ramped up Stack.  Secondly, it's cheaper to cost in a match where mana is critically tight.  And finally, it's much more difficult to get rid of.  Crucible can be Welded out of play and most mono-red Stax variants don't have any direct enchantment removal.  Sacred Ground is very close to an auto-loss for Stax once it resolves.  That's why it's preferable to Crucible.

[Everrid1234]

EDITs below, new comments wanted!!

IMO this deck looks perfect now!


Thanks for the replies so far.....
Brian is right. Earlier is was also thinking Crucible over Sacred Ground but Sacred Ground completely negates Stax' main tactic. Vs non-Stax decks i would never board in Crucible so Sacred Ground is preferable. I can easily fetch Tundra and drop it. The Stax player having out Crucible laughs about my crucible when he gets Smokestack out. About Sacred ground he doesnt laugh for sure  Still Sacred Ground is a very narrow chioce, only viable vs. reguar Stax.

So I decided to only run Katakis and Null Rods as permanent Stax hate.

Yare, 4 Null Rods Main is too much imo since i need them mostly vs. Slaver, Stax and Tendrils where i have other weapons, too. They are sometimes useless especially in the tough aggro matchup. Better 3 Kataki, he can cumpblock.
Vs. Aggro, the Null rod is surely boarded out while I board in the Jitte.

Kataki is the Main option vs. Stax 1st game, it makes this matchup winnable. 3 are necessary imo. It combines very well with a Null Rod.

It makes me leave the Energy flux (which is too expensive imo--3 mana vs Stax is too much) out of the side. Vs. Stax the tactic is --> 1st turn FoW, 2nd turn Kataki (or Sacred Ground), followed by Null Rod, if he got out some Moxen and A Workshop I lay first the Rod to hinder Trisk to kill Kataki..
4 Disenchants/Seals are needed vs. Oath (plaing SSS now) and also very nice vs. Dragon which also isnt an easy match.

Yesterday the Oath player played Pithing Needle after I played my Seal of Cleansing..... 
This was very random but maybe Disenchant is the better option...... it also is surely boarded in to get rid of Stacks, Crucibles and what-do-I-know eot.

Time Walk /Black Lotus:

I would really like to include some tempo boosters like Black Lotus or Time Walk.
Black Lotus is very good but the problem is: Using Lotus makes Null Rod welderable.
Time Walk is really good but i really don't want to put any card out of the deck.
The denial base is fix, 3 Stifles, 4 FoW, 3 Null Rods and 3 Dazes are must imo.
Also I dont want to put out any of the creatures. Sure, you could say that putting out Rootwater, Kataki or Stormscape for a Time Walk or Lotus doesn't have such a great effect on the whole deck.

But that's not correct for me. You need 4 Katakis against Stax, you want 3 Thiefs vs. Combo and you need the Stormscapes vs. Oath and other decks, Icatians vs. Welders/Confidants and at least my 3 Standstill and 2 Ninjas for the draw. Playing a Time Walk gives me another card and a land drop but i have to reduce heavily needed cards and for this i maybe get a card which isn't needed this much .
Maybe you consider leaving Walk out a bad idea but playing no Confidant, playing Ninjas (needs fast 1cc drops), playing Standstill (making Time Walk useless after combo player broke the Standstill to go off in his turn) are my reasons for this.
Rootwater is often a must-counter, Kataki is (althoug Stac can't counter ). There is just no room left for the Walk.
I don't think it is a definite must in this deck.

It is not necessarily needed to get another untap to makes broken things or another attack phase since this deck doesn't play fatties. Having 1 Ninja out is good enough, I wouldn't pack in the Walk for this scenario since i should win 70% of the games with a Ninja out.
I put thoughts in building up a good base of 1cc drops and heavy-game-affecting 2cc-drops.

About the Standstill:

If i drop Standstill completely i need some good draw.
Ninjas and Curiosity are not good in one deck, having a cc1-creature, Ninja and Curiosity on hand is.....bad. And better creatures with good effect means often they don't fly.
And Brainstorm isnt an option because of the lack of shuffeling.... I still think cheap creatures, a few Ninjas and Standstill are best.....
The other option would be Curiosities and a Time Walk. But not for me Standstill is still very good with fast 1cc drops. Its relatively easy to bring myself in a better position then the enemy with my shooters, tappers, robbers and forbidders.

Another good SB option would be Piting Needle to name Welder or Bazaar, but is it worth the slots? I think maybe, but not for me.



EDIT:

Having thought about the Grunt which is really good but imo a SB card my new deck:

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

1 Ancestral Recall
3 Standstill

2 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Meddling Mage
3 Icatian Javelineers
3 Stormscape Apprentice
3 Rootwater Thief
3 Kataki

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle

3 Null Rod

3 Swords to Plowshares


SB:

1 Swords
1 Kataki
3 Jitte
4 Disenchant
1 Null Rod
3 Jotun Grunt
2 Old Man of the Sea

This is my last version after editing.

This deck doesn't have a lot in the SB vs. Combo. I tried to leave out narrow cards like Arcane Lab, Orim's Chant and Sacred Ground and even the more flexible like Pithing Needle.
My thought was that I want the ability to beat aggro, so I think that Jotun Grunt is a very good choice. He makes threshold away and lets me reshuffle Rituals. He survives Pyroclasm and Massacre. He has such a broad application range....

Another nice Card is the Devout Witness, but a bit too slow....or maybe the True believer which makes combo matchups better and could even be sided in vs. aggro. Since the True Believer improves my Dragon and Tendrils Matchups, which arent very good but good, this could be a nice card in my SB and could also be boarded in to get time against aggro. The Problem is that he has no real effect on Tendrils-decks to go off. Sure, they can't cast tendrils, but playing a Will or use Chain of Vapor or Massacre is still critical. I'm not sure about him since Massacre/Pyroclasm is played often. If he can be protected he is just awesome, but its difficult to win with a lot of threats on the board which can be killed my massacre.. In heavy combo metas (Tendrils/Dragon) i would just throw Old Man out putting True Believer in.
Maybe the Grunt is the way to go in random meta because he empties their graveyard and survives the pyroclasm, after which he survives even longer to maybe bring the final damage.

The most annoying cards against this deck are indeed Massacre and Pyroclasm.

And because Orims Chant is narrow (but the card i would pack in the SB as the first) and True Believer gets killed my Massacre i think i would side in the full load of cards i got, even Disenchant to get rid of a moxen eot because when i have Rod dropped the Rebuild plan becomes more tempting each turn.

So what are your opinions about this whole construction, with regards on that I want to be able to have a nice matchup against any kind of deck?

What do you think about the more narrow cards, are they needed to beat Combo or does this variant have a chance?