Starting Gifts Hand

[GrandpaBelcher]

On the play with a pretty standard Meandeck Gifts list against Fish running Forces, Wastelands, Null Rods, and Duress, my opening hand was:

Lotus
Pearl
Jet
Ruby
Fact or Fiction
Force of Will
Mana Drain

I kept it and played it out thinking that FoF would put me into more threats and if it went wash, I would stay alive with the FoW.  Of course, the FoF piles were split into [Underground Sea, Flooded Strand] and [Mana Vault, FoW, Mystical Tutor] and I realized I had to take the mana or risk never getting any blue sources.

I ended up winning the game after Forcing Fish's first turn Null Rod; topdecking Merchant Scroll for Ancestral; Ancestralling into Gifts, Time Walk, and Rebuild; and Gifting for an unstoppable Darksteel Colossus and three more turns for the win.

Clearly a lot of things came together for me after the first hand.  Not ripping Merchant Scroll or having a bum (or even more average Ancestral) would have spelled the end.  Should I have kept the first hand or shipped it, especially knowing my opponent had Null Rods?

[And11]

I think you did the right thing. Find that permanent blue source until it's too late plus you're still holding Force and Drain (will likely be online before Rod = bonus) for that damn Null Rod that'll ruin this hand. Mulligan is outta the question with 1st turn FoF and Force IMO.

[Nixons_Evil_Twin]

Keeping it seems like a reasonable move. A first turn Fact or Fiction would likely result in a respectable hand with mana, and Fish was unlikely to do anything really broken early. Worst case scenario was Null Rod, and you had the answer to that in hand, so in all likelihood, you would come out ahead.

[diopter]

That hand was probably not keepable. You had two bottlenecks, blue mana and business. Your opponent can split FoF to make you choose to take either blue mana or business in your next 5 cards, but not both. In fact, that's what he did. You were playing the odds, and you topdecked Merchant Scroll... had it been a mana source or a Recoup/Wish/DSC or even countermagic, you may not have won.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I would definitely keep this hand on the play.  It's simply too broken not to.  First turn drain+fof is amazing.  I wouldn't worry about first turn rod that much because since you are on the play you can crack lotus to drain it and if they force your drain cast the FoF in response probably getting either more mana or a blue card for the Fow or if you are lucky perhaps both.  Drain mana then lets you play accelerate into anything from the Fof or topdeck (pretty likely you will be able to do something).  Yes, there are things that can go wrong with this hand, but it is very strong, and IMO quite safe to keep on the play. 

(on the draw I might worry about a first turn chalice if my opponent was playing it.  On the draw against a fish deck running both rod AND chalice it is much riskier; if they play first turn chalice you will have to force with the drain and then if they force/daze or play another one or a rod second turn you are probably screwed; you would have to hope that they did not have another one OR counter back-up or depend entirely on the FoF.  Being sure that you can play our your mana to drain+fof makes all the difference with this hand.)

[diopter]

I would definitely keep this hand on the play. It's simply too broken not to. First turn drain+fof is amazing. I wouldn't worry about first turn rod that much because since you are on the play you can crack lotus to drain it and if they force your drain cast the FoF in response probably getting either more mana or a blue card for the Fow or if you are lucky perhaps both. Drain mana then lets you play accelerate into anything from the Fof or topdeck (pretty likely you will be able to do something). Yes, there are things that can go wrong with this hand, but it is very strong, and IMO quite safe to keep on the play.

If you cast the FoF in response to his Force, a smart opponent will split your FoF into a pile of blue mana and a pile of blue cards/brokenness. If you take the blue cards to force and get brokenness, you will likely not have the mana to cast the broken spell because you will need to topdeck blue mana next turn (unless you are a champ and reveal Will or Demonic Tutor in the next 5 cards). Too many things could go wrong.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I would definitely keep this hand on the play. It's simply too broken not to. First turn drain+fof is amazing. I wouldn't worry about first turn rod that much because since you are on the play you can crack lotus to drain it and if they force your drain cast the FoF in response probably getting either more mana or a blue card for the Fow or if you are lucky perhaps both. Drain mana then lets you play accelerate into anything from the Fof or topdeck (pretty likely you will be able to do something). Yes, there are things that can go wrong with this hand, but it is very strong, and IMO quite safe to keep on the play.

If you cast the FoF in response to his Force, a smart opponent will split your FoF into a pile of blue mana and a pile of blue cards/brokenness. If you take the blue cards to force and get brokenness, you will likely not have the mana to cast the broken spell because you will need to topdeck blue mana next turn (unless you are a champ and reveal Will or Demonic Tutor in the next 5 cards). Too many things could go wrong.

Your opponent might not even HAVE first turn rod+force.  I think that it's foolish to mulligan a strong hand like this on the play for fear of what your opponent MIGHT have/do.  If it was all disposable mana like black lotus+lotus petal+mana vault it would be a different story, but as it is you have 3 moxen in play after cracking your lotus.  If the rod is countered any blue source puts you in a good position here, because a deck like gifts is full of business and bombs, so you are likely to have quite good topdecks, most of them immediately castable with 4 mana in play.  Even if they have first turn rod+force and you must take a mana pile off the Fof (hence the rod resolves), you are still in a good position if you topdeck anything relevent (I'll admit, you could get screwed here in this scenario, but it's not certain to happen even in the first place; I'd say the possible benefits of this hand far outways the risks.)

One thing Fish has a lot of trouble with with control opponents is explosive starts like this one, especially when the Fish deck is on the draw.  First turn drain+fof on the play is ridiculous against a lot of decks but especially against them.  It already puts them way behind on tempo and should give you a great deal of resources.

The other thing to consider is what you are likely to get if you mull this hand.  I wouldn't want to get a hand of 6 with something like mox, fetch, dual land, drain, fow, gifts.  Fish has multiple methods of attacking your mana base and resources (ie, stifle, waste, etc) (IMO it has a favorable matchup against Gifts if well piloted and constructed) so you could likely be in for a tough time regardless of what kind of hand you keep.  This hand at least has strong prospects with an explosive first turn, and I think that by mulling it you play right into the Fish player's hand (no pun indented).

[Moxlotus]

I'd keep that hand on the play all day long.  Obv they are going to split between land and blue cards more than likely.  Obv you must take the land.  But then do you know what?  You set yourself in a position to have a bunch of mana if you draw any relevant card in your deck and that will probably lead you to the win.  As a bonus, you have counters in hand in case it takes a few turns to find a bomb.

[keratinx]

If you're starting first, you'll lay the moxen and cast a turn 1 FoF and take the fetchland pile. You already have Mox Ruby and Mox Jet, which provide you the important secondary colours for MDG. Hence, you'll want to fetch out a basic Island to improve your draws.

my 2 cents

[49 Cents]

Just one thing, if you started with Lotus + Mox into Fact of Fiction mainphase, you will still have 4 cards in hand. How does your opponent know these aren't lands? If he splits the piles like you say and you have another land, you'll just win. I think it's wrong to pass the turn in this situation simply because of that.

[Gaagooch]

I think passiing the turn would have been the best play, because then you opponent who wanted to play the first turn null rod still most likely would have.  You would have three moxen and lotus in play, so when they do, you sac lotus for blue, drain floating one, and then fof, thus making use of all mana you had comming to you.  Yes you opponent may split your fof piles such that its threats or lands, but also this way you are still holding a force of will so all you need to do is draw a blue card in order to counter a threat, where as the way you played it out you used two counters essentially to counter one spell.

[Liam-K]

THROW THIS HAND BACK!

You're up against Fish, and you're willing to throw FOUR cards (petal, fof, force, blue card) at trying to find your first land?  And you're just going to hope it's not wasteable?

[Disburden]

THROW THIS HAND BACK!

You're up against Fish, and you're willing to throw FOUR cards (petal, fof, force, blue card) at trying to find your first land?  And you're just going to hope it's not wasteable?

I agree with this statement. I see a lot of things in Vintage that, to me, are considered mistakes. Vintage is almost an entirely different game than Standard, but that doesn't mean that certain rules of tournament level Magic do not apply. I wouldn't ever keep a hand without lands unless I knew I could go busted before I pass my turn. The chances of this are very unlikely. If this was Standard and youd didn't have a land you would mulligan. Just because you have moxen doesn't mean this rule doesn't hold water. Your opponent has wastelands in their deck and Null Rods and you're willing to keep a landless hand. That's just a mistake to me. Sometimes having first turn spells off moxen isn't enough, even in this format.

[diopter]

THROW THIS HAND BACK!

You're up against Fish, and you're willing to throw FOUR cards (petal, fof, force, blue card) at trying to find your first land? And you're just going to hope it's not wasteable?

I agree with this statement. I see a lot of things in Vintage that, to me, are considered mistakes. Vintage is almost an entirely different game than Standard, but that doesn't mean that certain rules of tournament level Magic do not apply. I wouldn't ever keep a hand without lands unless I knew I could go busted before I pass my turn. The chances of this are very unlikely. If this was Standard and youd didn't have a land you would mulligan. Just because you have moxen doesn't mean this rule doesn't hold water. Your opponent has wastelands in their deck and Null Rods and you're willing to keep a landless hand. That's just a mistake to me. Sometimes having first turn spells off moxen isn't enough, even in this format.

Also I think it's just the quality of the first-turn threat you're presenting. If the hand had Scroll you could scroll for Ancestral and cast with Force backup and 2 floating blue mana from Lotus, or if  it was Gifts you could Gifts for brokenness like Will, Recoup, Academy, Ancestral. Fact gets you... two lands. Leaving you Force + Drain and all of your starting brokenness used up against a deck with its own Forces and Duress (stated in the original post) to protect Null Rod or equivalent threat.

[Whatever Works]

You have to keep this hand. Its not even questionable. You would have to have absolutely NO spine to throw this back, and without some guts you shouldnt be playing a deck that wants to be played aggressive.

You will be casting FoF with 4 cards in hand. Opponent will not know if you have lands or not. Them having to guess will likely leave you with an easy choice from FoF.

Chances are VERY likely that you find a land. First turn your digging 12 Cards into your library.

Unless your fish opponent has 2x FoW You will be resolving 1 of the strongest draw spells in magic.

Based on how explosive gifts is and the fact that your opponent runs Duress you would play the FoF on your turn. This gives you the oppertunity to likely play your land for the turn & perhaps another mox which could allow for the mana to still have Drain up, or at least cast merchant scroll. Regardless, casting on the EoT would allow opponent 1 more card, ability to perhaps cast something dumb like daze... Shaman (in some fish...) Duress... etc.

Also your playing against fish... what turn 1 Drain target is really going to even be usful if your just going to mana burn anyway if you dont topdeck a land?

Kyle

[Shock Wave]

You have to keep this hand. Its not even questionable. You would have to have absolutely NO spine to throw this back, and without some guts you shouldnt be playing a deck that wants to be played aggressive.

You will be casting FoF with 4 cards in hand. Opponent will not know if you have lands or not. Them having to guess will likely leave you with an easy choice from FoF.

Chances are VERY likely that you find a land. First turn your digging 12 Cards into your library.

Unless your fish opponent has 2x FoW You will be resolving 1 of the strongest draw spells in magic.

Based on how explosive gifts is and the fact that your opponent runs Duress you would play the FoF on your turn. This gives you the oppertunity to likely play your land for the turn & perhaps another mox which could allow for the mana to still have Drain up, or at least cast merchant scroll. Regardless, casting on the EoT would allow opponent 1 more card, ability to perhaps cast something dumb like daze... Shaman (in some fish...) Duress... etc.

Also your playing against fish... what turn 1 Drain target is really going to even be usful if your just going to mana burn anyway if you dont topdeck a land?

Kyle

What he said. You absolutely cannot send this hand back. Ask yourself this: What're the odds the 6 card hand you'll end up with will give you a better shot at winning than the 7 you've been dealt? What exactly would you be hoping for? You're basically throwing away a strong hand because you're assuming that your opponent will have "1st turn insert nasty disruption here + FoW". That's like throwing away pocket kings because you think your opponent has pocket aces.

[Vegeta2711]

THROW THIS HAND BACK!

You're up against Fish, and you're willing to throw FOUR cards (petal, fof, force, blue card) at trying to find your first land?  And you're just going to hope it's not wasteable?

I agree with this statement. I see a lot of things in Vintage that, to me, are considered mistakes. Vintage is almost an entirely different game than Standard, but that doesn't mean that certain rules of tournament level Magic do not apply. I wouldn't ever keep a hand without lands unless I knew I could go busted before I pass my turn. The chances of this are very unlikely. If this was Standard and youd didn't have a land you would mulligan. Just because you have moxen doesn't mean this rule doesn't hold water. Your opponent has wastelands in their deck and Null Rods and you're willing to keep a landless hand. That's just a mistake to me. Sometimes having first turn spells off moxen isn't enough, even in this format.

Are you kidding? The fuck is this shit? How do you not go for turn 1 FoF, w/ 3 other permenant mana sources and being against FISH. Nothing they do can possibly screw you. Even if they double FoW and 'devestate' you, they've just Mind-Twisted themselves out of the game. Your deck is so far ahead of theirs as far as power goes that mulling to 6 just gives them more time to get the meager disruption they have online.

[Disburden]

My post wasn't just about the Fish Match but in general for the games I usually play. A lot of Vintage players need to keep in mind that we all don't get to face Grim Long, Slaver, Stax and fish and that is it. A lot of us play against random decks that kick our asses sometimes. You know how many R/G decks I play against on average? About 4 when I play in my area. Four in one day. That is a deck that runs four Hidden Gibbons, four Null Rod, four Pyrostatic Pillars and Wastelands. I like having Islands in play over Moxen and Mana Crypt. If I faced control decks this much I would be jerking off to the first turn Fact Or Fiction, but the fact indeed is we all don't play the cut and dry metagames of SCG tournaments. I have never seen Stax to be honest with you.

Sometimes I wonder why Dave Feinstein is the only one that is known to play that deck on TMD. It is a pain in the ass.

[Liam-K]

THROW THIS HAND BACK!

You're up against Fish, and you're willing to throw FOUR cards (petal, fof, force, blue card) at trying to find your first land?  And you're just going to hope it's not wasteable?

I agree with this statement. I see a lot of things in Vintage that, to me, are considered mistakes. Vintage is almost an entirely different game than Standard, but that doesn't mean that certain rules of tournament level Magic do not apply. I wouldn't ever keep a hand without lands unless I knew I could go busted before I pass my turn. The chances of this are very unlikely. If this was Standard and youd didn't have a land you would mulligan. Just because you have moxen doesn't mean this rule doesn't hold water. Your opponent has wastelands in their deck and Null Rods and you're willing to keep a landless hand. That's just a mistake to me. Sometimes having first turn spells off moxen isn't enough, even in this format.

Are you kidding? The fuck is this shit? How do you not go for turn 1 FoF, w/ 3 other permenant mana sources and being against FISH. Nothing they do can possibly screw you. Even if they double FoW and 'devestate' you, they've just Mind-Twisted themselves out of the game. Your deck is so far ahead of theirs as far as power goes that mulling to 6 just gives them more time to get the meager disruption they have online.

I'm much more worried about FoW + threat.  Say you force through your FoF, take your 2 lands (as in the example), your opponent drops land mox null rod and passes the turn.  You're out of gas, right where fish wants you.

Or say they think you're bluffing and have lands in hand.  You force it through for dual land, gifts, drain.  They waste your land and pass the turn.  You've got no tempo and you're right where fish wants you.

Or duress and they take the business spell you have left in your hand.  Hell, this hand is extremely vulnerable to duress even if they aren't holding a force, you're doing to have to take a mana-heavy pile and unless your top 5 are really really juicy, have 1 business spell and drain won't be online.

Or what if your FoF just sucks?  A fistful of counterspells does not win against fish, and flipping 5 without seeing a land is hardly inconceivable.


This hand is going to lose outright nearly half the time, and win outright almost never.  It is not keepable.

[Vegeta2711]

What threat are they going to play that you honestly care about? Even if they have the perfect counter hand of FoW + Blue Card + Land + Mox + Null Rod, they're down to 3 cards in hand. If you got the 2 lands like in the example, you're left in a topdecking situation with 2 lands and a far higher quanity of good cards / search to topdeck into.

The best case scenario for the Fish player is Null Rod + FoW turn 1, holding land, Bob and Strip. So ok, if they have that I lose for sure. *shrug*

Or what if your FoF just sucks?  A fistful of counterspells does not win against fish, and flipping 5 without seeing a land is hardly inconceivable.

I can count on two hands the number of times FoF has given me total crap and I'm counting all the old Vintage, T2 and Extended enviroments I played in where FoF was a factor.

Go ahead and pretend Fish always has the turn 1 Null Rod + FoW or Wasteland + w/e to ruin you. If you have 3 moxen in play and just resolved FoF and have FoW back-up, you only lose outright if they a few specfic combinations of cards. It's simply playing odds and making the best use of the overall power level of your deck. Mulling into an unknown six when you have a perfectly playable seven card hand with a busted opener and FoW backup just seems silly.

Where this overestimate of Fish being good comes from, I have no idea. Just like this assumption that it can actually captalize on things. It can't. That's why olden Fish* is and has been crap for the entire year (Unless were only counting SS now) and most of 4th quarter last year.

*And since were talking about Null Rod and stuff, I figure this is what you're referring too.

[zeus-online]

If fish goes down to 2-3 cards in hand, then they're right where I want 'em!

Gifts should topdeck waaaay better then any fish deck i've ever seen.

/Zeus

[cssamerican]

That's like throwing away pocket kings because you think your opponent has pocket aces.

I have done this three times in my life, and it was the same guy all three times. He has a biggest tell of anyone I have ever seen when he has pocket rockets. Maybe if you playing a guy that only gets really exited when his opening grip allows him to play a Null Rod with Force of Will backup, and when he draw his opening seven it looks like he is about to piss in his pants do you throw that hand away. Otherwise, you just can't throw back busted hands that have a small percentage of risk associated with them. If you do you will throw back every busted hand you get lucky enough to draw.

[FlamingCloud]

Even if they have their 'God hand' of first turn null rod + FoW, you have first turn FoF with drain and FoW backup.  Clearly you don't cast FoF until their turn, when they cast rod you cast drain, then FoF if the rod is countered.  If they attempt to save their rod(which they will if they have the counterspell back up) you cast FoF, and take a pile with a blue card in it, then FoW.  Worst case scenario is you with 1-2 unknown FoF cards & your next turns draw, Jet, Pearl and Ruby in play to their mox/land, and 3 cards in hand.  So worst case scenario puts you at a slight disadvantage.  Yes you could end up with no blue source, or a null rod in play if you couldn't take a FoF pile with a blue spell.  But if they have an average hand(which for fish would be land go, or a force on your FoF(which you can save) you absolutely maim them.  If you had this same hand with business instead of 2x counter it would be a clear muligan since you would lose to a null rod.  I just couldnt justify muliganing a hand with double counterspell and draw, you should have enough faith in your deck that you will topdeck what you need, after stalling it out for a few turns with the counters.

[Liam-K]

I would usually keep this hand against most matchups, and I agree that it's not a terrible hand in a vaccuum.  But it's vulnerable to too many fish cards for me to risk it in that matchup, knowing what you're going into.

[FlamingCloud]

I would usually keep this hand against most matchups, and I agree that it's not a terrible hand in a vaccuum.  But it's vulnerable to too many fish cards for me to risk it in that matchup, knowing what you're going into.

I don't see what you are refering to.  It was said to be UB(maybe UBW fish) so probably no main deck kataki (or atleast not more then 1-2), chalices don't matter since you are on the play, duress does basically nothing to this hand as it has no bombs you cant afford to lose, and you have double counter to deal with any rods, wastelands are effectively useless since you already have both your splash colors and can afford to get only basics all game.  Worst case is they play 4 stifle, 4 rod, 2 kataki, and you should have enough counter power to stop the rods/katakis in their opening 8.  Wasting all your counter magic and then stifling you first land which happend to be a fetch would be the worst result.  There is almost no chance you wont get a blue source in the top 6 cards, with effectively 16 sources left in the deck (including demonic since you have the mana if push comes to shove) 6 chances at those 16 sources (or 10.1% chance of zero blue mana, and most zero blue hands would leave you with a handful of good cards and fow+misdirections that could still win if you drew a blue source)

You can't always have a hand of recall, sapphire, island, drain, or first turn tinker with counter backup and timewalk.  I just can't see this hand being worse then the average 6 you would get, sure you "could" muligan into a better hand, but I would imagine most of the time you would hit a worse hand.

It is like playing grimlong and not going for the first turn win against an unknown deck, there is about a 40% chance they will have a FoW+Blue Card if they are even playing FoW which lets say 70% of decks do, so you have a 72% chance of winning outright..  Now lets say you have a 20% chance of recovering and winning if they FoW your win, thats now a 77.6% chance of winning.  Unless you think you have a better then 77.6% chance of winning if you wait a turn why not go for the win?  I don't see how gifts with double counterspell a resolved FoF and 3 permenant mana on turn 1 is not well on its way to a turn 3-4 kill.

[Liam-K]

Wasteland matters if you FoF into a dual land.
Duress likely leaves you completely out of gas after FoF resolves.
Your "double counter" will likely not be online very soon.  You have FoW backup, don't pretend drain isn't blank for now.

Gifts is a very focused deck that knows exactly what it wants to do.  This hand wanders off to pick daisies and hopes it works out.  You can do that against decks that will want to fight over EoT superiority and play draw-go with you for a while, because the cards you get from FoF will count.  You *can't* do that against a deck that is specifically designed to kick you in the balls for playing draw-go, and to capitolize on the fact that FoFing into something that you can do to eventually get what you need is slow and clunky.  I don't want to draw cards for the sake of drawing cards, especially when it slows me down against a tempo oriented deck, and I really don't want to be deciding between a stable mana base and cards that do something.  COUNTERS ARE BAD AGAINST FISH.  All you have once FoF (presumably) resolves is a drain, a force, some mana, and in all likelyhood 1 other card.  Look at what *actually* happened when the OP kept this hand, he finished his turn with drain, force, land, land.  What do you do now?  Shit all, that's what.

Also I think it's just the quality of the first-turn threat you're presenting. If the hand had Scroll you could scroll for Ancestral and cast with Force backup and 2 floating blue mana from Lotus, or if  it was Gifts you could Gifts for brokenness like Will, Recoup, Academy, Ancestral. Fact gets you... two lands. Leaving you Force + Drain and all of your starting brokenness used up against a deck with its own Forces and Duress (stated in the original post) to protect Null Rod or equivalent threat.

Emphasis added.  If opened mox, mox, mox, petal, FoF with 2 cards in hand when they know I'm playing a deck with force, I would split the 5 mana/not mana EVERY TIME.  You have 2 cards in hand, if they aren't force + blue card you are being stupid and if one is a land, they are not force + blue card.

This hand logically eventuates in topdeck mode.  It sucks.

[FlamingCloud]

Wasteland matters if you FoF into a dual land.
Duress likely leaves you completely out of gas after FoF resolves.
Your "double counter" will likely not be online very soon.  You have FoW backup, don't pretend drain isn't blank for now.

Gifts is a very focused deck that knows exactly what it wants to do.  This hand wanders off to pick daisies and hopes it works out.  You can do that against decks that will want to fight over EoT superiority and play draw-go with you for a while, because the cards you get from FoF will count.  You *can't* do that against a deck that is specifically designed to kick you in the balls for playing draw-go, and to capitolize on the fact that FoFing into something that you can do to eventually get what you need is slow and clunky.  I don't want to draw cards for the sake of drawing cards, especially when it slows me down against a tempo oriented deck, and I really don't want to be deciding between a stable mana base and cards that do something.  COUNTERS ARE BAD AGAINST FISH.  All you have once FoF (presumably) resolves is a drain, a force, some mana, and in all likelyhood 1 other card.  Look at what *actually* happened when the OP kept this hand, he finished his turn with drain, force, land, land.  What do you do now?  Shit all, that's what.

Emphasis added.  If opened mox, mox, mox, petal, FoF with 2 cards in hand when they know I'm playing a deck with force, I would split the 5 mana/not mana EVERY TIME.  You have 2 cards in hand, if they aren't force + blue card you are being stupid and if one is a land, they are not force + blue card.

This hand logically eventuates in topdeck mode.  It sucks.

First, meandeck gifts only plays 3 duals as opposed to 5 fetch, 5 island, the odds of a wasteland screwing you are not very high, which is why I listed stifle in my worst case scenario and not wasteland.

Second, counters are bad for CS against old school UW fish, but against null rod/dark confidant I hear counters are pretty good.  Meandeck gifts has 11 counters and 4 merchant scrolls, if it gives up on the control route then you might aswell scoop it up right now because if you lose control of the board your only hope is a tendrils kill or some sort of extremly luck colossus magic.  Far as I am concerned meandeck gifts has the potential to counter every relevant threat UB(W) fish plays all game with this hand if things go right (ie rods/confidants).  This is the best deck in vintage at playing the control role when it wants to.  Maybe if this was fish with factories and vials I might agree with you that playing the control route is not feasible.

Unless you somehow take a pile of tinker no blue source, or get yawg in your hand I don't see what a duress is going to do beside take a counter because you will be playing any relevant threats with the blue mana you got from the FoF, and even then tinker or yawg going to the yard isn't such a problem(you could even cast yawg next turn if you wanted.. You do have 3 mana plus whatever you get in those 6 cards plus a lotus in the gy).

There is always the option of them dropping land go, and you not even casting the FoF yet so you can keep your double counter online.  A UB(W) fish deck probably only has duress, brainstorm and maybe stifle as its 1 mana plays, and the deck doesn't play enough accel to get 2 mana on turn 1 more then half the time.

Also FoF is way better in this case then gfts because you would have to gifts for 4 lands, and personally I would rather 2-3 brokeness be in the graveyard for future use then 2 lands.

"he finished his turn with drain, force, land, land"

Lets see... A manabase of 4 with a land in hand and lotus/vault in the yard on turn 2, a drain, and a force.... HMMMMMM this seems to me to be where gifts wants to be against a deck that probably wont win until like turn 10 and the worst thing they could do is drop a rod(probably the only card you would be willing to force with drain in their deck).  You almost certainly win within two turns of drawing any relevant card (yawg, demonic, tinker, 4 gifts, recall, hell even 4 merchant scroll or 4 brainstorms as demonstrated.. so like 16 out of 47)  At this point the only way fish is going to win is to get control of the game back, which it could only do by means of confidant + you topdecking mana like 5+ times since you essentially run 15 counters and have 2 in hand.

Sorry if you think gifts doesn't like having 5 mana inhand/inplay and 2 counters(and the card drawn for the turn[which was scroll]) against a deck that plays mana denial.  If I could start the game with 10 lands in play and no cards in my hand against fish I would be estatic, gifts loves mana, because it means you outright win whenever you find a business card, and fish can't stop you.  There are three components of playing a gifts deck.

1. Build manabase
2. Control game(ie stop things that either interfere with tinker/collosus or with you mana base)
3. Fuel graveyard for recoup/will

1... Check
2... Check(assuming they dont have like 2 rods and 2 confidants or something retarded)
3... Check(mystical, lotus, vault, FoF)

So barring them having lots of brokeness or your topdecking going ultra bad you have already won.

Topdeck mode with lots of mana and 2 counters in hand is a good thing, not a bad thing.

[Whatever Works]

If this hand isn't good enough to keep against fish (regardless of the build) then fish must be the best deck in the format, because it apparently has FoW more then 40% of the time, and even though they do always have FoW & you counter it!!! It wont matter because they are going to duress + null rod with there insane mana acceleration on there turn 1.

LOL.

Please, if this hand doesnt beat fish then sign me up to play fish.

Kyle L.

[Shock Wave]

Gifts is a very focused deck that knows exactly what it wants to do.  This hand wanders off to pick daisies and hopes it works out. 

This is an absurd statement. When you resolve a card drawer, you always hope it works out. When you resolve Ancestral, do you hope it works out, or do you hope to end up with 3 lands in hand? You're casting a powerful draw spell very early in the game with drain backup and acceleration on the board. What more do you want?

I would like you to provide me with an example of a 6 card hand that you feel would better server you in winning this game.

[LordHomerCat]

I don't understand people saying "you dont have an island so you can't keep against fish".  Do you guys actively not want to draw your Lotus against Fish?  That just seems absurd to me.