Gifts, feasible?

[ZeroGs]

I was thinking of trying out the Mizzium Transreliquat with Time Vault Combo Instead of the **flame/vault**, severance/belcher, b.wish/tendrils in Gifts. Basically it would run tinker/colosus of course, and Time Vault/Mizzium Transreliquat. Mizzium Transreliquat comboing with Vault would setup a pretty cool kill condition (infi-turns), also it could also just randomly copy their colosus or yours for that matter. I look at it this way, yeah flame/vault costs you 1R5C and Mizzium/Vault costs a total of 5C to setup and 3C more to go off, in the end you are paying 3C instead of 1R which goes very well with Drain Mana also letting you go off with basics. I guess it could be a better inclusion in a CS style deck, but I like Gifts which runs many tutors. Let me know what you guys think.

Mizzium Transreliquat
3: Mizzium Transreliquat becomes a copy of target artifact until end of turn.
1UR: Mizzium Transreliquat becomes a copy of target artifact and gains this ability.

Time Vault
Time Vault comes into play tapped.
If Time Vault would become untapped, instead choose one - untap Time Vault and you skip your next turn; or Time Vault remains tapped.
Tap: Take an extra turn after this one.

[ZeroGs]

No comments. Ok, well I will ask for constructive criticism then.

[frolll]

Gifts just does not need another kill in addition to an 11/11 trampler plus Time Walk. Any Gifts deck played the right way will give you the exact setup to win if you play it correctly. The Tendrils plan is a good idea, sure, but another kill in the maindeck is likely. Although a hand with Recoup and Burning Wish is not that exciting, a hand with Mizzium Transreliquat as lone land is not that cool too...

And infinite turns, that sounds really like overkill and useless... But, hey, that should be a hell of fun to play.

I hope there will be a Gifts list that will try to introduce that combo and place top8 in a tournament... That would be a great kill condition-infy turns to accumulate ressources and hardcast your colossus...

[TopSecret]

It does cost one mana less than Severance Belcher.
Unfortunately/Fortunately, the combo is also much easier to disrupt than FlameVault was.
It's probably viable, as it doesn't even require colored mana.

     If you are looking for a lot of comments on its viability,
I think the people that are trying to break it are wary of posting.

[ZeroGs]

In terms of it being easier to disrupt I really don't see how, Null Rod and Pithing Needle will affect Belcher/Mizzium/Vault rendering the combo useless. You no longer have to worry about getting your Vault bounced in response to Flame, if either Vault or Belcher is in play and you cast Flame/Severance/Mizzium they are all vulnerable to counters. Please elaborate on how it's easier to disrupt.

[frolll]

I mean, it's an artefact, and wich deck doesn't don't run at least one way of killing this kind of permanent in the main or via a Wish?
But, the same was true for the old Flame/Vault.

I cost you a land drop. lolzor That's true, even if played under a Yawgmoth's will, it will take you a land less. And, more importantly, this land is non-basic, which means that any Wasteland effects will nuke it. And Stifle, by the way.

[BreathWeapon]

I assume you realize that you can set up the combo with either Reconstruct and either Argivian Restoration or Argivian Find. This is an important realization, because it allows you to play "Mono Blue Gifts" combo and never expose your manabase, and you never have to Gifts for Tinker or Yawgmoth's Will so the threat density of your deck is never at risk to a Tormod's Crypt. It's also the only stack that allows you to set up the combo over multiple turns

This was the list I was using,

4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain

2 Repeal

4 Thirst for Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall

4 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor

1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Argivian Restoration
1 Reconstruct
1 Mizzium Transreliquat
1 Time Vault

1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Time Walk

1 Darksteel Colossus

2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
5 Island
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet

It's important not to just put the combo in MD Gifts, because MD Gifts is such a one dimentional deck that it can't support the alternate combo with out the deck becoming awkward, so a BrassMan style Gifts list is preferable. Just remember that your first goal is to try to assemble the combo by hand with your tutors and draw engine, and if for some reason that shouldn't work you can Scroll for Gifts as plan B. The White splash may well be better, because it gives you access to Sacred Grounds and Meddling Mage. You can easily replace the Repeals with Needles for Thirst, I just like to be able to bounce Chalice and don't have many qaulms about discarding Moxen.

It's really a fun deck, but it's not broken by any meens.

[BruiZar]

"And infinite turns, that sounds really like overkill and useless... But, hey, that should be a hell of fun to play. "

Emm, Mindslaver anyone?

[ZeroGs]

It's not useless when it's you win condition. With CS I would understand why you would say that, be it that once you mindslave them once or twice its not really necessary to take infinite turns, but in the deck that I am trying to make it is my win condition in other words necessary.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

It's not useless when it's you win condition. With CS I would understand why you would say that, be it that once you mindslave them once or twice its not really necessary to take infinite turns, but in the deck that I am trying to make it is my win condition in other words necessary.

The question should really be if it is necessary or not.  Do you really need another win outside of colossus and burning wish, especially a 2-card combo in which the pieces do nothing on their own? (also not to mention the fact that you still need to kill them after getting infinite turns, so if you have used up burning wish and your colossus has been stped/extracted/w/e you are still out of luck). 

Personally, I think it just adds more garbage and weakens the deck.  I'd rather play cards that actually do something that helps me to win.  (Oh and argivian restoration and reconstruction are even more dead weight IMO.  I certainly wouldn't want to be playing them.) 

The best thing you can do for a Gifts deck (or any deck, for that matter) is make sure you are running as little chaff/dead weight/conditional cards as possible, and transreilquat/time vault is really a step in the opposite direction.

[ZeroGs]

I agree for the most part with you Gandalf, transreliquat could make you beat with 2 DSC's and copy their slaver. Just seemed like a cool way to win for me.

[BreathWeapon]

It all depends on how you look at it, BrassMan Gifts used a combo finish despite Smmenen's claims that MD Gifts was the superior choice and became more popular for it. As far as I see it, Tinker Colossus is a standard in this format that people are prepared for, be it removal, bounce, welder or chalice etc. he isn't as effective as he used to be at overrunning decks. Concentrating on a combo kill that can be assembled by hand alleviates a number of those problems. I also find Reconstruct and either Argivian Restoration or Argivian Find to be useful cards, if you are constructing the combo by hand they serve as hard counters, if you have Black Lotus they serve as Dark Rituals, if you discarded Moxen or either of the combo pieces they serve as Regrowth and if you want to add other busted cards to the deck, Memory Jar, they become Draw 7's.

The deck doesn't bottle neck itself in the same way MD Gifts does, you aren't reliant on Colossus and the graveyard to win your game, thus you avoid hate which otherwise gives MD Gifts trouble. I don't think it's right to look at it as whether or not you are adding "dead" cards, MD Gifts runs three dead cards against any non-Blue deck, but whether or not those "dead" cards are adding another dimention to your deck.

Edit: Mizzium Transreliquat is not a dead card, it copies opposing Darksteel Colossus, Crucible of Worlds and Slaver Cogs which makes it a seriously strong card in its own right.

[Harlequin]

It is spot removal for Karn and Mindslaver. You cannot use it to slave someone.  Because it will either legend kill itself before you get priority to slave, or the ability will "Fizzle" with no leagal target (if they sac it in response). 

If your going to run red, why not run Trash for Treasure over Argivian Restoration.  It basically is Sac a Moxen instead of pay extra.  Also it costs less colored mana (but requires the use of 2 colors).

Total Combo Cost:
Reconstruct, Argovian Find => , [7+3, 1 blue plus 1 off color]

Reconstruct, Argovian Restoration => , [7+3, 3 colored mana - all blue]

Reconstruct, Trash for Treasure => (sac), [6+3, 2 on color mana]

[TopSecret]

Please elaborate on how it's easier to disrupt.

     It requires more mana than FlameVault did.
Unlike Fusillade, Mizzium Transreliquat must be played at sorcery speed,
costing 6 mana to win immediately, as apposed to 4.
Flame Fusillade could be played at end of turn, too.

     Also, once Fusillade resolved with an active Time Vault on the board,
the opponent was guaranteed dead immediately.
MizziumVault requires another win condition to be drawn,
while taking infinite turns.
This might become relevant, given how many Jester's Caps are seeing play.
Also, Hide//Seek might become more popular in Stax and Aggro.

[ZeroGs]

FF is a Sorcery.

[BreathWeapon]

That argument is so flawed, if an opponent resolves Jester's Cap or Hide/Seek vs any versions of Gifts it's going to either win or cripple it, and even BrassMan gifts included Tinker-Colossus simply for its ability to GG Fish and to luck sack turn 1 Tinker. Taking infinite turns is just as good as winning on the spot, whether or not it is easier to disrupt is debatable, because being able to set up over multiple turns and not require a colored source to win gives this pile a big advantage, not to mention you can assemble this combo by hand much easier.

[TopSecret]

FF is a Sorcery.

     Thank you for pointing that out.


     BreathWeapon, I agree with you for the most part.
MizziumVault allowing infinite turns will almost always mean game.
Jester's Cap and other library removal spells are very rarely an issue,
and are not a large factor in determining viability.

     The combo being colorless is certainly a very large bonus.
I do not think that MizziumVault is unviable. I ain't no hater.
I am just trying to point out that the combo is not as outright broken as FlameVault.
     
     Small differences, be it an additional two mana, or infinite turns vs. direct damage,
are not necessarily huge factors in the application of a combo.
However, everything is a factor at some point, no matter how small.
Take Belcher/Severance vs. FlameVault vs. Tendrils for example.

 
     Also, Travis Laplante killed himself recently at a Myriad Games tourney,
by flipping fatal Confidant damage after taking infinite turns with Mizzium Vault.