[Deck] Mono Blue

[Tao]

Explanation of the Choices see some posts later.


Decklist:

// Lands
    8  Island
    4  Seat of the Synod
    1  Tolarian Academy
    3  Ancient Tomb
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine

// Creatures
    1  Darksteel Colossus
    1  Sundering Titan
    3  Trinket Mage
    1  Triskelion

// Spells
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    4  Force of Will
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Mana Leak
    4  Thirst for Knowledge
    1  Tinker
    3  Compulsive Research
    3  Repeal
    1  Grim Monolith
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  AEther Spellbomb
    1  Cursed Scroll
    1  Mana Crypt

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1  Chalice of the Void
SB: 3  Hydroblast
SB: 3  Stifle
SB: 3  Hurkly's Recall
SB: 3 Spell Snare

[Acenought]

Run Brainstorm, a main consistency reason to play blue, and 4-5 fetches.

[Harlequin]

I would say, if you going to run trinket mage... maindeck your toolbelt. 
Maindeck:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Aether Spellbomb
1 Engineered Explosives.
1 Pithing Needle

[Implacable]

Wouldn't playing 1-2 more colors make your deck much better?  You have none of the traditional advantages of Mono-Blue (Back to Basics & invulnerability to Wastelands) and your creatures are inferior to good cards like Dark Confidant and Meddling Mage.  You basically have two choices when trying to make aggro decks in Vintage: Just play with really good cards (read: Invitational creatures+Hate) or try to do something really well (read: Sullivan Sollution).  This deck doesn't seem like it does either of those things.

[TimeWizzle]

Mono Blue that can't run Back to Basics = sad panda. 

You defintiely should be running Brainstorm + fetch, which should also be enough mana fixing to run Mana Drain.

Chrome Mox and Mox Diamond are probably not good enough to run, those should probably be the Tormods/Needle slots. 

What do you bring Spell Snare in for?  Should that be Rune Snag or Annul?

[Manpriest]

If you are trying to run a disruption base and you are willing to screw your mana base enough to never get UU, then why are you not running wasteland?

[Kieranwolf]

I'm not sure what to make of this.

It sure doesn't play like aggro. The game plan feels a lot like SS, though. The mana cuve is just higher.

I'm not sure that Trinket Mage and TFK are amazing without Mana Drain. Your Mana Leaks and Forces would be holding off combo and combo-control, but would you be able to drop enough threats to apply pressure before being overtaken?

Drain would enable a lot of your 3cc spells, but if you added it, you might as well try a Bomberman list instead (the U/W deck with the 3 and 4cc beatsticks).

Otherwise, take a look at a current Mono Blue Fish list if you'd like to see an example of the mana curve that most non-drain and non-combo decks aim for. SS is perhaps the most mana-hungry of the aggro-control decks out right now, but it uses the card advantage and tempo it generates to get mana and draw into answers and threats.

Of course, SS and Bomberman are just what's hot locally, U Fish being even more obscure.

Check out your local Vintage Metagame, too. If you see a whole lot of Gifts and CS, this might not be so optimal. If you see lots of aggro, then go for it. (SoFI EATS aggro if you can get it active soon enough).

[Tao]

Thank you for the Feedback.

SB Spell Snare: These are for Dark Confidant, Hymn and Oath of Druids.

Chrome Mox / Mox Diamond: You were right, I rarely wanted to imprint something. Mox Diamond was better, but I cuttet both and replaced them with Strip Effects.

Brainstorm: Playing with so much acceleration is pretty new to me, but I know that Brainstorm/ Fetchland is wrong for this deck. I play Legacy quite successful so I know about the strenght of Brainstorm. But I wanted a deck that doesn't use time (blue mana) on library manipulation because it has so much artifact mana that you can go for real carddraw instead. Therefore Compulsive Research is better than Brainstorm here.

You were right, I cannot build enough pressure with these Faeries, so I changed the deck fundamentally. More heavy threats and Mana instead of those small creatures.

The suggestion of a bigger Trinket Mage engine was a good idea, too. I included Sensei Top to find answers, Cursed Scroll as an answer to Welder, Confidant and Negator, Aether Spellbomb for Colossus and a maindeck Crypt. In most cases I want to fetch a Mox Sapphire or a Sol Ring for more acceleration, but since all these cards are good on their own it is rarely a problem.

I'd like to run a 2nd Repeal and a full set of Wastes, but I am not sure what to cut and how to adjust the Manabase. With 2-3 Repeals I could play Mana Crypt again, which would be really good.

// Lands
    8  Island
    4  Seat of the Synod (they are great. They have synergy with Thirst, Research, Trinket Mage and they make Academy better)
    1  Tolarian Academy
    3  Ancient Tomb
    2 Wasteland
    1 Strip Mine


// Creatures
    1  Darksteel Colossus
    1  Sundering Titan (Random Tinker target or hardcast)
    3  Trinket Mage

// Spells
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    4  Force of Will
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Mana Leak
    4  Thirst for Knowledge
    1  Tinker
    4  Compulsive Research
    1  Repeal
    1  Tormod's Crypt
    1  Memory Jar
    1  Grim Monolith
    1  Chalice of the Void
    1  Mindslaver
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  AEther Spellbomb
    1  Cursed Scroll

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3  Hydroblast
SB: 3  Stifle
SB: 3  Energy Flux
SB: 3  Spell Snare
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

[Harlequin]

Cursed Scroll is likely a terrible choice.  Your a control deck that needs cards (and suprizes) in hand.  Cursed scroll is just going to make you play badly.  Engineered Explosives is far better at controling fishy fellows.  You run full mox so you should have no problem droping EE for 2, all it takes is one off color mox.  I think the # of times you do not have access to off color mana will be far less than the # of times when you can't use Cursed scroll because you have too many cards in hand.

Also I think your running WAY WAY too many tinker targets, esp in a deck that runs 0 welders, 0 ways of recurring artifacts, and minimal tutors for tinker.  Mindslaver, Jar, And Titan can probably be replaced by better cards.

Lastly, Brainstorm and Shuffle effects are way better than Compulsive research.  I would say drop your island count to 5 and run 3-4 Fetchlands.  Esp because cards in your graveyard are dead.  Your probably want to add a Personal Tutor to get tinker and add a 4th trinket mage.  Then your deck is TinkerDSC.Dec with Trinketmages as an alternate win + additional control elemenets.

Also you should include 1 pithing needle so you can stop welders who will "un-tinker" your DSC.

[Tao]

I will try out Explosives, but I really like the damage the Srcoll can do.

I feared that this discussion would come, and even though I hate to repeat myself:  Brainstorm is bad in this deck. You will see this after 1 or 2 Golfishes.

Number of Tinker targets: With all the cheap Mana and carddraw in the deck you can come easily to 6-11 Mana so that you can hardcast Titan, Mindslaver, Jar or Colossus. Jar makes some really strong turns, Mindslaver is randomly good, but definetely 1 thing that could be cut. Titan and Colossus are absolutely nessecary as kill conditions.

[Draven]

I will try out Explosives, but I really like the damage the Srcoll can do.

I feared that this discussion would come, and even though I hate to repeat myself: Brainstorm is bad in this deck. You will see this after 1 or 2 Golfishes.

Number of Tinker targets: With all the cheap Mana and carddraw in the deck you can come easily to 6-11 Mana so that you can hardcast Titan, Mindslaver, Jar or Colossus. Jar makes some really strong turns, Mindslaver is randomly good, but definetely 1 thing that could be cut. Titan and Colossus are absolutely nessecary as kill conditions.

Can you please explain why Brainstorm + Fetchlands are bad?

[GrandpaBelcher]

Yeah, I would think that dropping the Seats of the Synod and an Island for five Fetchlands and Compulsive Research for Brainstorm would be a great change.  You still have plenty of Tinker targets, especially since you're running Trinket Mage to find them.  Plus, the extra shuffle effects provided by Fetchlands would be really good with the Top.  You can keep a decent starting seven with Brainstorm and turn it into an awesome starting hand a few turns later.  Plus, it can help out against Duress and help you find that critical Force of Will.  Plus, your deck is already hit pretty hard by Null Rod, so there's no reason to add fuel to the fire and have four lands they can shut down with it as well.

Just try it.

That said, this looks like an interesting list and I'll have to try it out.  I'ma use Brainstorm, though.

[Harlequin]

Its hard to make the arguement that "Real Draw" as you put it plus DISCARD is better when you have absolutely no cards that use the graveyard in anyway.  The discard caused by compulsive research is actual card disadvantage.  Thirst for knowledge in a deck running Yawgmoths Will is only temporary disadvantage, becuase when you have your will turn you have all those discarded moxen waiting for you.

Also if your insistant on running Jar, not running brainstorm is simply a mistake.  Jar into a brainstorm makes jar amazing.  If pop jar and can't cast what you draw (for one reason or another), then you can brainstorm back that critcal tinker or what not so you can draw it next turn.

Lastly Brainstorm gives you something to do on turn 1 - of realavence.  Playing a top, or Sol ring, or a an AEther Spellbomb do not do anything useful on turn 1 (because you wont nessisarily have the mana to activate the card).  Turn 1 Brainstorm lets to tailor a mildly good hand into a winning hand, and gives you more information about the correct path to winning the game.  All on turn 1.  Haveing 8 spells and 3 creatures that you cannot play until turn 2-3 is concentrating too much of your efforts on a few turns.  

Lastly if you insist on running Giant artifact creatures and intend to hard cast them.  You probably should be running mana drain.... and at that point your only a few duels and 3 welders away from being a slaver deck.

[Draven]

Lastly if you insist on running Giant artifact creatures and intend to hard cast them.  You probably should be running mana drain.... and at that point your only a few duels and 3 welders away from being a slaver deck.

Welll said...

[Tao]

I am only referring to the 2nd decklist because the 1st list in the opening post failed in doing what I tried to build.

____

You seem to have a fixed decklist in your head and then give arguments for changing each difference between them. Some of these arguments are really good, but some are just wrong. The Discard of Thirst for Knowledge/ Research is NO card disadvantage, it is 1 card advantage and it improves your card quality.

I will try to explain my point on Brainstorm again:
1. The deck plays very few blue sources and it should spend nearly each turn each single blue Mana. Therefore you have to take as much advantage of them as possible.
2. You don't want to shuffle cards back in. You want to play Mana, play another Drawspell, play the Mana you found etc. Brainstorm works not well enough in this concept.

I would like to discuss about the other points, Personal Tutor seems like a good idea, and what finishers exactly I shoul use because I am not really thinking that the list is optimal.

But first I would like to discuss if I am right about my point with Brainstorm and I hope that I am able to convince you. Please give it a chance and don't give me answers like "Blue decks run 4 Brainstorms" or "use Mana Drain because you play Monoblue".

This is more important, so that you understand what I want from the deck and how I want it to work. Then you can help me to find an optimal decklist with more Repeal and better Finishers.

[Harlequin]

Neither Thirst for knowledge nor Compulsive research only draws cards.  They both cause you to discard, and in that reguard you might as well be removeing them from the game because you don't run any sort of graveyard recursion.

If you have artifacts and lands that you don't ever need (and can thus simple discard them, never to be seen again) then why even run them in the first place?  If you have extra lands or artifacts in hand that you don't need right now then you can put them back in your deck for a 1/3 of the cost to discard them.

Further more, your running 4 Thrists, and 3 (wich should be 4) Trinketmages.  Thats plenty of meat for the critical 3-level casting cost.  Haveing 1 Thirst, 1 Trinketmage, and 1 Compulsive research in hand may look good on paper, but you have to consider that you cannot cast even 2 of them in one turn without being far into the late game.  Spreading those threats over mulitple turns is only setting yourself up to loose to a quick deck.  Infact out of all those 3cc cards, you probly won't be casting them until you have 5 mana open.  Otherwise you risk makeing your mana leaks obsolete. 

The reason I suggested drain was not because your mono-blue... in fact thats a good reason not to run drain.  My point was that if you have massive colorless outlets like thirst, Trinket mage, and huge artifacts... then drain is a natural fit to the deck.

[Tao]

Neither Thirst for knowledge nor Compulsive research only draws cards.  They both cause you to discard, and in that reguard you might as well be removeing them from the game because you don't run any sort of graveyard recursion.

If you have artifacts and lands that you don't ever need (and can thus simple discard them, never to be seen again) then why even run them in the first place? 

I didn't expect that I needed to explain this: It is just the principle of card adavantage. If you have a land in hand, then draw 3 cards (Land, Mox, Spell) with Compulsive Research and discard the worse land, you have made 1 card advantage and improved your Card Quality.

But you still have to have the land you discarded in your deck because you need lands to play Compulsive Research and you cannot know when you will draw them.

If you have extra lands or artifacts in hand that you don't need right now then you can put them back in your deck for a 1/3 of the cost to discard them.

Brainstorm improves Card Quality while Research is Card Advantage. You don't run Brainstorm because the Manabase supports not that much blue. Please just try it out.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Tao, I used to feel the way you do about Brainstorm.  When I put together my first Fish list (a deck not unsimilar to yours, though my answers were tutorable spells and not tutorable artifacts) I used Standstill as my draw engine.  It was cheap, I drew three cards, lots of people were running it--it seemed like the right move.  Plus, I hated the idea of Brainstorming and putting two cards back because I would still have to draw through those cards to get back to my deck.  After a while of being frustrated by Standstill and its drawback of not really being able to play spells, though, I tried Brainstorm and I haven't looked back since.  Running Brainstorms and shuffling chaff away with Fetchlands or other shuffle effects that you'll be using anyway is practically broken.  Seriously.  We're not trying to get you to run them because it's the cool thing to do; we're trying to get you to run them because it really is powerful and does so many things that Research and Thirst don't.

1.  Improves your opening hands.
2.  Hides cards from Duress.
3.  Diversifies your card drawing out of your already crowded 3-mana slot.
4.  Can draw you into an artifact threat and leave you with mana left over to play it.

Thirst, Research, and Brainstorm all will draw you into Force of Will or pitch to it.  Thirst and Research are both better at filling your graveyard than Brainstorm, but since you don't have any recursion that doesn't matter.  Thirst is a good card, and you can keep that in the list, especially with the number of artifacts you have.  Drop Research for Brainstorm, though.  You might have to change your playstyle (saving Fetchlands until after Brainstorms and Brainstorms until you can shuffle, for example), but you won't be displeased.  You can't be.  It's too good.

Also, Brainstorm costs just as much blue as Research or Thirst.  It also costs two fewer colorless mana.  If the manabase doesn't support that much blue as you argue, you probably don't need 8 Islands and 4 Seats and can drop some of them for more powerful colorless sources like City of Traitors or Mishra's Workshop.  You're not arguing your case very well.  What happens if you don't have a land to discard to Research or an artifact to Thirst?  Then it's barely card quality and you just paid three times the mana to Brainstorm and you lose two spells that might have come in handy later.  I admit that might be unlikely with Thirst (though you might have to discard a powerful artifact instead), but it won't be uncommon with Research, especially since you'd be hard pressed to find a situation where discarding Academy or Strip Mine was good.

Right now you have 4 (should be 5 with another Trinket Mage) shuffle effects in your deck and 6 effects that will draw you through Brainstorm in a pinch.  If you drop Seats for four or five Fetchlands, you'll have plenty of shuffle effects.  Better still, Fetchlands also get lands out of the way, so you won't have to worry about drawing them later, further improving card quality.

[Harlequin]

Also last I checked, Compulsive research and Brainstorm have the same amount of blue commitment.  anytime you could cast Compulsive research you could also cast brainstorm.  The opposite is simply not true. 

Also you can't say "I discard useless lands, but have trouble finding blue mana."  Most of the time, if your haveing trouble finding lands then you will likely be discarding TWO non-land cards which may include draw and winconditions simply to make a land drop.  And thus you have no card advantage. 

Lasty it apears that you understand card advantage, but your not thinking about tempo.  Why would run Compulsive research when you could just run Oppertunity instead?  thats for a +3 card advantage.  Obviously I'm not trying to insult your intellegence with that question, but there is a reason why no deck runs Opportunity.  The reason is -> Tempo.  Simply put, Tempo is your ability to play the right spell at the right time.  Your deck lacks the ability to spend mana in the early game.  Your Tempo is too clustered at the 3 mana level.   Brainstorm is a good Card not because of "Card advantage" but because it fits into a control decks natural tempo.

[FlamingCloud]

Every blue deck plays brainstorm/fetch for a reason.  Research is useless because playing three mana sorceries that don't do anything in a deck with counters is insane.  You are going to get mana drained and lose.

Sorceries are bad.  This isn't T2 tidings and other sorcery speed draw spells suck.  What good is singleton chalice, grim monolith(no mana crypt but this??), cursed scroll.  Chalice coming down anyturn but 1 is generally not very impressive.  I can't see how memory jar, drop a land is worth 5 mana... is a single mindslaver activation worth 7(tinker) or 10 mana?

If you want a heavy colorless draw engine you should be running intuition/ak, or fact or fiction / gifts ungiven, not compulsive.  Not sure why drain isn't in a deck with so much colorless mana costs.. You play like 15 blue sources, I find it hard to believe you can't support double blue.

I don't see how this is aggro-control.. It is just tinker-control.  This deck would have an extremely bad CS matchup as it basically dies to an active welder, or mana drain.

"1. The deck plays very few blue sources and it should spend nearly each turn each single blue Mana. Therefore you have to take as much advantage of them as possible."

That is correct, just you should be spending all those sources on your opponents turn, not yours.

Seat of the Synod is bad.  You will realize this the first time someone drops a turn 1 gorilla shaman on you and blows up your land.  Even energy flux is good against your deck, and blue control shouldn't die to eflux(but your curve is so high that it will).  You have plenty of artifacts to discard without running jank. 

[Tao]

deleted, double post

[Tao]

First of all: In other Forums Mods are more careful if members called Flaming Cloud are flaming a thread. I never said I wanted a new thread because I didnt like the answers. That is basically a lie and the mod just accepted it. I wanted a new thread because I made a bad opening post, said it and apologized for it. Thats a big diefference.


Anyway. I edited the opening post and changed the name to avoid more confusion.



Here is what I wrote in the other thread:

---

I will try again to explain what I want the deck to do. It is supposed to generate much Mana, create fast Card Advantage and overwhelm the opponent. It shall spit out permanents fast and keep on drawing cards. While doing this it shall counter some of the opponent's key spells and then win with its superior Mana and a big threat or beat the exhausted opponent with 1 or 2 Trinket Mages.

First of all I want no further Brainstorm / Mana Drain discussions. As an example for other blue decks that are Monoblue and don't use the Brainstorm/ Fetchland engine here are the Top 3 from an online tourney:

http://www.magic-league.com/deck/22584/legacy_t15.html

Of course Sea Drakes and Serendib Efreets are not that impressive in Vintage as in Legacy, so they are replaced with other threats. But the baisc principle is the same: With all the artifact mana Brainstorm is just an inferior choice and Mana Drain, like all UU spells is not supported by the mana base. The last thread was really frustrating. I hope I made you understand why I don't want a Brainstorm discussion here.

I would much rather like to discuss the exact amount of Mana needed and the kill engine.

The choices so far:

4 Force of Will: Yes

4 Mana Leak: It can counter really often on Turn 1 and is still quite good in the later game

4 Thirst for Knowledge: Creates card advantage and improves card quality

3 Compulsive Research: same as TfK, only slightly worse.

3 Trinket Mage: They are really good. In most games you fetch for Blue Mox to accelerate or Senseis Divining Top to find spells. Other options are Black Lotus to hardcast a massive threat, Seat of the Synod to discard to CR or TfK and some of the 1-ofs. I am not sure if I shall go up to 4.

3 Repeal: Really great card. Much better as Chain of Vapor. You can bounce your opponent's threats and then counter them. It saves Trinket Mages from Removal or with damage on stack, then you draw a card and use them again. It is great with Mana Vault and Mana Crypt. I can play Mana Crypt because I have already 3 Repeal in the deck.

1 Cursed Scroll: absolutely nessecary to keep Welders, Confidants, Cutpurses and Negators back. Better than E. Ex. at this. E.Ex. seems like a good choice, too, but you cant play everything.

1 Aether Spellbomb: Colossus or Akroma. It also saves your fatties from StoP and lets you use Trinket Mage again. It can cycle, too.

1 Senseis Divining Top: Really great card. I fetch for it really often with Trinket Mage and it wins games.

1 Trisk, 1 Titan, 1 Colosssus: Titan and Colossus are in without a doubt. They are not only Tinker targets, you can hardcast them pretty often, even the colossus. 11 Mana is realistic with Mana Vault or Monolith plus a fetched Lotus. Or with Academy.  But I am really not sure about the finishers.

Wasteland / Strip Mine: Nessecary against stupid Bazaars, acdemys and Workshops. Helps Brainstorm get better and improves your mana advantage.

Ancient Tomb: Because of the nessecary inclusion of Strip effects you can play only 3.

Grim Monolith, Mana Vault: They help hardcasting a big threat.

Tinker, fast Mana, Ancestral, Time Walk, Tolarian Academy: yes


SB Choices:


Tormod's Crypt: Maybe I should add one to the MD. Of course they are Trinket Mage targets, too.

Chalice: You can side it in on the play or together with Hurkly's Recall against Staxx.

Stifle: Storm Combo

Hydroblast: Welder and Red Blasts.

Spell Snare: Confidant and Oath


Decklist:

// Lands
    8  Island
    4  Seat of the Synod
    1  Tolarian Academy
    3  Ancient Tomb
    3  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine

// Creatures
    1  Darksteel Colossus
    1  Sundering Titan
    3  Trinket Mage
    1  Triskelion

// Spells
    1  Mana Vault
    1  Mox Emerald
    1  Mox Jet
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Ruby
    1  Mox Sapphire
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Sol Ring
    4  Force of Will
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    4  Mana Leak
    4  Thirst for Knowledge
    1  Tinker
    3  Compulsive Research
    3  Repeal
    1  Grim Monolith
    1  Sensei's Divining Top
    1  AEther Spellbomb
    1  Cursed Scroll
    1  Mana Crypt

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1  Chalice of the Void
SB: 3  Hydroblast
SB: 3  Stifle
SB: 3  Hurkly's Recall
SB: 3 Spell Snare


My reply to some answers from the other thread:

Mana Drain: it is not included because I need Turn 1 counters. Mana Drain can only do this with a Mox Sapphire/ Island draw. Vs. Staxx or Oath the game can be over before I haver UU.

Repeal vs. Chain of Vapor: Of course Chain is better vs. Tinker/Colossus but in nearly every other situation Repeal is better. Repeal as a cantrip is just a part of the Card Draw engine. You could never run 3 Chain of Vapor because you die from Card disadvantage.
The deck is build around having more Mana than your opponent, so it works as a Tempo card. The important thing is the card you draw, so you can just cycle with a Mox.

Spell Snare: It is quite encouraging to get some at least neutral feedback... I can't understand why this card does not see more play since it counters Dark Confidant, Oath of Druids and Mana Drain. So, yes, my experiences with it were quite good. I countered Confidant, Oath, Drain, Time Walk and Hymns with it.

[Draven]

I am going to try your own logic here.

I feared that this discussion would come, and even though I hate to repeat myself: Brainstorm is bad in this deck. You will see this after 1 or 2 Golfishes.

Try running 4 Brainstorm and 4-5 fetches. You WILL see what it does after a couple goldfishes.

Everyone is not saying this because we are a bunch of sheep, we are saying this for the same reason everyone who "believes" in gravity is not considered stark raving mad, it is becasue it is TRUE.

Spell Snare: It is quite encouraging to get some at least neutral feedback... I can't understand why this card does not see more play since it counters Dark Confidant, Oath of Druids and Mana Drain. So, yes, my experiences with it were quite good. I countered Confidant, Oath, Drain, Time Walk and Hymns with it.

I think the reason Spell Snare is not played is although it does counter all those spells, it doesn't counter: Will, Tinker, Gifts, Welder, Thirst etc.

[Kelme]

Agree with draven

Its a good sb card vs oath and fish though

Brainstorm and fetches are amazing.

The major concern with deck is that i am unable to pinpoint which major strategy you seek; I see no ophidians or chalices, i do not see why cursed scroll or grim monolith belong in this deck.

Neither do you have any game breaking combos such as trinket mage-->lotus-->salvagers-->infinite mana-->draw deck with spell bomb..

You run 3x repeal which confuses me; repeal is a cheap cantrip for decks like gifts or md tendrils, not mono blue.

Your manabase is entirely wastelandable.. this troubles me too; this is not a quick combo deck where the loss of a single land is easily compensated for with the quick kill.. you have to sit back and build up. Actually this manabase is the worst i have ever seen; your only blue manaproducers will be shut down with null rod. (excluding the sole academy)

[Purple Hat]

if you think people are flaming your thread cus we say things like:

you're playing lots of stuff that costs lots of colorless in a mono blue deck....mana drain produces lots of colorless in mono blue decks while at the same time countering your opponent's threats, you should include it.

or

Brainstorm + fetchlands is one of the most powerful synergystic effects in vintage.  it adds to the consistency of your deck, makes it less exposed to mana drain, and allows you to make relevant turn 1 plays, you should include it.

then clearly you're misunderstanding the point of these posts.  People aren't flaming you, they're giving you advice on how to make your deck better.  getting pissed off at them isn't gonna change their advice.  Getting back on point, how many turn 1 counters do you really need?  I could see wanting more than 4 but more than 6 seems a bit excessive as you are then forced to use them later when mana drain would be strictly better (ie. after turn 2).  Playing a blue deck you will win more games due to a turn 2-4 mana drain than you will lose because you don't have a counter on turn 1.

Brainstorm will also help with your turn 1 counter issue as you will now get to see 10 cards when looking for turn 1 force of will (initial 7+ 3 off brainstorm in response to threat).

Stax fears drain, and with good reason, nothing sucks like walking turn 2 smokestack into drain and watching your lock disappear before your eyes.  Good stax players will be FAR more worried about getting a turn 2-4 threat drained than they will about getting a turn 1 threat leaked or forced.  drain means you lose, leak means you play something else next turn and force means you just got card advantage.  asside from that, the way your deck currently is designed if you don't lose the game on turn 1 vs stax you'll lose on turn 2 or 3 when you tap out.

seriously, instead of getting pissed at the more experienced type one players who try to help you as you are, by your own admission, new to the format, maybe you should try paying attention to what they have to say about how your deck could function better using the type one card pool and in the type one environment.

[Tao]

i never said anyone except flaming cloud is flaming my thread and that was when he said that my thread should get locked and mod followed, but how can you know??? you'd have to read my post for that and i really dont want anyone to do this, i am writing all this because i like writing, i dont expect anything from this

i really dont care, lock this, ban me for not playing brainstorm, whatever

dont forget to send me emails with "play brainstorm" after banning me, because i didnt hear that suggestion often enough the last 5 or so days

but dont dare testing the deck before writing a comment or testing cards from new editions, how can a spell that hardcounters oath for U or a bounce spell with card parity be good

[FlamingCloud]

Sorry you are upset at your other thread being locked but there was no need for two threads.

Mana Drain: it is not included because I need Turn 1 counters. Mana Drain can only do this with a Mox Sapphire/ Island draw. Vs. Staxx or Oath the game can be over before I haver UU.

Spell Snare: It is quite encouraging to get some at least neutral feedback... I can't understand why this card does not see more play since it counters Dark Confidant, Oath of Druids and Mana Drain. So, yes, my experiences with it were quite good. I countered Confidant, Oath, Drain, Time Walk and Hymns with it.

Had a big long thing written up about brainstorm and mana drain and how bad compulsive/seat are by I decided to delete it and make more positive suggestions..

Spellsnare seems really good to me and I am honestly not sure why it isn't played more(atleast in sideboards), some vintage decks are filled with spells cost 2 mana.  Oath for example has Walk, Demonic, 4 Oath, 2 Null rod, Chalice at 1, 4 Mana Drain thats almost everything worth countering in the deck.  Still, it is the kind of sideboard card you could go an entire tournament without boarding it in, and then you would feel like you made a bad sideboard call.

May I suggest running Fact or Fiction, it is much better then thirst in this deck.  Second only to ancestral in power. 

Also you should probably cut the 1 divining top, divining top without dark confidant or shuffle effects in pretty bad.

Speaking of shuffle effects mystical tutor would probably be a good card to run since the deck is so reliant on finding and casting tinker.

[Implacable]

Tao, I'm really sorry that you're frustrated, man, and I can understand it.  It's just that you're basically denying something that >99% of the Vintage community takes for granted.  Now, we may be wrong, but the fact is that that overwhelming majority is going to advocate for the inclusion of the cards that we universally consider superior to some of the cards in your deck.  As has been said many times, I really, really encourage you to do some extensive testing with Fetches+Brainstorm.  I honestly believe that you will find it is much, much better than the card draw that you're using at the moment.

[netherspirit]

Hey Tao, I seriously understand your frustration here, I've been working on a deck based on Recycle, for example, and I really didn't like a lot of people's suggestions. But no harm can come of at least TESTING the ideas. To be honest I like your deck, but Brainstorm is undeniably great. Seriously, just give Brainstorm a test, follow what people say, and post your findings etc, and if you make a change that you don't feel works you can easily change it back.

[Kelme]

Well, my first post was rather hard, i do realize now.

I think that you should play mana drain, as you play mana spells which`d love mana; thirst, compulsive research--

Another thing is that you seem to play to many lands; 22 plus a lot of accelerants; dont you find that you draw to much mana?

you could cut it down to maybe 17-18 lands (i suggest removing the ancient tombs) and play fetches and brainstorm: in any deck that play many instants or need mana fixing; its perfect!