[Single Card Discussion] Black Vise

[Implacable]

At best its a lightning bolt if you play it turn 1.

Vintage decks don't keep enough cards in hand to make it worth playing.

Vise is amazing.  Strategies can be built to make it a very effective card.  It's broken in multiples, and that's obvious, but what people don't understand is that it is not meant to win games on its own.  What it does is speed up aggro decks to a ridiculous degree, to the point where U/W Fish can kill on turn 4.  That's just dumb.

[Mind_under_Matter]

And setting up some sort of Chant lock with a large number of draw sevens seems decent, but not nearly worth the randomness factor as long as it's restricted.

[hollowbody]

At best its a lightning bolt if you play it turn 1.

Vintage decks don't keep enough cards in hand to make it worth playing.

Vise is amazing.  Strategies can be built to make it a very effective card.  It's broken in multiples, and that's obvious, but what people don't understand is that it is not meant to win games on its own.  What it does is speed up aggro decks to a ridiculous degree, to the point where U/W Fish can kill on turn 4.  That's just dumb.

I have never personally used vice in an aggro deck, but that sounds like it could be a very irritating build to play against. I mainly used Vise in two different flavours of deck in the past(*sniff* the good ole days). One deck was Similar to Keeper, but Vise was the win condition. It was basically Drains, FoWs, Draw7s and Brainstorm with a bunch of silver bullets to do random things. The other was a deck streamlined to race the opponent, it had no protection at all and when it worked, oh boy did it work. Basically, between the vises and howling mines and draw 7s, things got silly quickly and a stormseeker usually finished things off, or cards fed into a stormbind. Occasionally I would duck under a Nether Void and just watch my opponent frustratedly ditch cards at the end of his turn while the Vise slowly crushed him. No other card in the history of magic has been more fun to play with than Vise for me, I would love to see it come off the restricted list.

[zeus-online]

I'm pretty sure thqt Dream Halls is garbage any way you cut it.  That card was dangerous in Type 2 during the days of Tempest Block, and you could play 4 Mana Vault in Type 2 back then, so it WAS pretty nuts.  The problem with that card is that it's symmetrical and costs a billion mana.  Do you want to spend your hard earned mana on something that makes your opponet's cards all amazing?  When I discard my dark ritual and play bargain, you're going to cry. 

How would you even try to abuse Dream Halls now?  You could try to get it out fast with Academy Rector, but hell, you could do that NOW, and nobody's doing that because you could use BARGAIN.  You could also use Replenish which has similar problems. 

Dream Halls was considered dangerous in the wake of Urza's Block which spit out like a billion broken cards.  I'm pretty sure that it's safe now. 

Black Vise on the other hand makes annoying aggro decks better, and I'd rather see less of all that.

Agree.
Dream halls sucks in T1. - Unrestrict the damn thing so i can play it casually!
Black vise is freakkin' annoying.

/Zeus

[df8251]

Vintage decks don't keep enough cards in hand to make it worth playing.

that is true, but many of them play enough cards that allow them to get a majority of them back.

[Zarathustra]

Vintage decks don't keep enough cards in hand to make it worth playing.

that is true, but many of them play enough cards that allow them to get a majority of them back.

Yep.  And once they get them back, they win the game.

I see no reason to play Vise in any deck.  Not even Fish.  A one of that *might* get you 3 damage is pretty bad in Fish.  Just play a random Jitte.  Or Crypt.  Or Needle.  Anything but Vise, it's not worth the slot in today's metagame.

[netherspirit]

I'd just like to know, have any of you guys tried testing Vise lately? I'd be interested to hear any results.

[Roxas]

It's hard to "test" Vise, because it's a restricted card that typically goes in decks with little tutor/draw. 

That said, an inconsistent non-disruptive damage source simply isn't worth a deck slot right now.  Dealing seven to ten damage to Pitch Long (if you are lucky enough to even live that long) isn't really going to stop it from casting a lethal Tendrils.  For this and reasons people have already mentioned, it's just generally not worthwhile.

[netherspirit]

It's hard to "test" Vise, because it's a restricted card that typically goes in decks with little tutor/draw. 

It's really not that hard to test it IMO, you put it in the deck, play a substantial amount of games with it, and see how it does.

[Purple Hat]

he means it's hard to test because a 1 of that's only good in your opening hand in decks that don't play tutors doesn't show up enough to really have relevant sample size.  I can already tell you the results of testing with black vise as a restricted card in the current meta: when it shows up it's largely irrelevant vs combo and good vs control, but it very rarely shows up.

I think vise warps the metagame by making card advantage based control strategies unviable.  Whether we've reached that point in vintage through the natural evolution of the metagame is a seperate issue, but I think CS would have a rough time if it couldn't have 6,7 or 8 cards in hand on it's upkeep.

Vise is not as powerful as you suggest, especially as a one of.  Control decks typically have a way of dealing with threats due to large amounts of draw and search, not to mention countermagic.  There are tons of ways to deal with a one casting cost artifact - (powderkeg, engineered explosives, echoing truth, etc.)

obviously I meant as a 4 of vise warps the meta, as a 1 of it's just dumb.

[netherspirit]

Do you reckon it'd ever be possible to get it unrestricted or at least considered for unrestricting?

[Purple Hat]

I seriously doubt it, games that start land, mox, vise, vise, go have a lot in common with games that start workshop, trinisphere, go except that turn 1 wasteland doesn't own the dude with the vises, and the same play by player 2 doesn't make the game any more interesting.

[darkstar138]

Unresticted vice only helps aggro which is underrated in the current metagame.  Fish killing on turn four is not a valid arguement because this format contains combo decks capable of killing on turn one or two.  Black vice is not disruptive.  A prison deck would have to establish a lock before vice would become useful and even then there are better win conditions available.  The double vice draws and other insanity that people argue about occur in low percentages (the nutz) and every deck in this format has the capability to draw insane hands.  Black vice does not restrict players from playing cards like trinisphere and is not a part of any lock.  It only attacks an opponents life and even then only when they have four or more cards in hand.  I doubt it could ever be viable in this format.

[Darkenslight]

What about this hypothetical decklist:

4 Ivory Tower
4 Black Vise
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Dingus Egg
1 3-sphere
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 Time Spiral
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Diminishing Returns
9 Artifact mana
4 U/R dual (can't remember the name)
4 Thirst
5 Mountains
5 Islands
3 Polluted Delta
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Reminisce

That would be rather hard to play against, apparently.

[zeus-online]

What do you call that pile? It wouldnt last 1 round in a tourney, Hell my casual decks would destroy it.
Not trying to sound like an ass, but that decklist does not help the discussion at all.

/Zeus

[Implacable]

Unresticted vice only helps aggro which is underrated in the current metagame.  Fish killing on turn four is not a valid arguement because this format contains combo decks capable of killing on turn one or two.  Black vice is not disruptive.  A prison deck would have to establish a lock before vice would become useful and even then there are better win conditions available.  The double vice draws and other insanity that people argue about occur in low percentages (the nutz) and every deck in this format has the capability to draw insane hands.  Black vice does not restrict players from playing cards like trinisphere and is not a part of any lock.  It only attacks an opponents life and even then only when they have four or more cards in hand.  I doubt it could ever be viable in this format.

I'm sorry, but you're dead wrong.  Fish does not have a nuts hand.  Granted, it occasionally plays two creatures on turn 1; that's about the extent of its brokenness.  Nevertheless, as proven by the excellent finishes posted by U/W and U/W/B builds recently, Fish is a very good deck.  Saying that a combo deck can win on turn 1 or 2 is both obvious and meaningless; do combo decks pack as much disruption as a typical Fish deck?  Hardly.  What Black Vise does is make Fish absurdly good against Slaver, particularly the Slaver decks that now run Night's Whisper.  Additionally, it allows Fish decks to knock off a good chunk of life from combo decks that are getting off to a slower start than usual due to Fish's disruption.  Even if a combo deck is doing a good job of going off, trying to go off from <10 life is a much more difficult prospect than going off from 13+.  Vise will never, ever dominate Vintage, but it would warp an archtype that is well-balanced as of now.

[The_spooky_kid]

I think unrestricting black vise would make the environment even healthier than it is now.  It will be a great addition to aggro, and maybe make aggro decks viable again.

[Dakkon]

It wouldnt help vs combo which is aggros worst match-up. And it woudlnt really help vs control since thats already aggro's best match-up.

[darkstar138]

In order to support unresticted vice fish would have to cut four disruptive cards.  Fish thrives because it's threats (Meddling Mage, Kataki, Dark Confidant, Apprentice) double as disruption.  Black vice is not disruptive.  What would you cut from fish to support Black Vice?  Black Vice is a suboptimal choice in a fish deck.  Combo can still win with 10 or less life.  Black vice would speed up pure aggro which is unviable because it lacks disruption.

[Harlequin]

I think it would best fit in a shop - prison deck.   

4 Vice

4 Chalice
3 Null Rods
4 sphere of resistance
X Tanglewires / Smokestack


Chalice for 0, Shop => Vice, Sphere of Resistance??

seems much more powerful than anything fish could throw out.

[dandan]

If Trinishere was restricted for being unfun, Black Vise deserves to be restricted. Cards only get unrestricted if they look 99.9% safe and Vise doesn't

[Lunar]

@ Harlequin and others

The problem with Vice in prison decks is the same problem as vice in Fish...wtf do you cut for 4xVice? I guess I still go by the golden rule that Cron had in Stax..if it isnt a lock piece itself or something to benefit the lock then it has no place in the deck...Once a lock is established the win condition is irrelevant. All vice in your opening hand does in Stax is take up a spot that a chalice or sphere or null rod could have gone. Needing to draw into that one last lock piece mid game with stax and hitting something irellevant like Vice instead would just be horrific. The list you mention Harlequin is fine and all..but how does that fit into a 60 card deck and still be consistant and balanced without losing something more relevant than a win condition that might not even be relevant once prison has established a lock? Myr Retreiver or Servitor might as well be there, at least they can deal damage outside of the prison lock, heh. To be honest life total is the last thing to worry about not only in Stax but in much of T1 in general (small things matter like being at 19 instead of 18 against Oath, or lower life against Tendrils) But speeding up the actual damage stax deals is irrelevant...you want to speed up the lock in prison.

I could MAYBE see it in shop/aggro, but even then I find it doubtful as it doesnt deal nearly as much damage as say Juggernaut which is castable first or second turn most of the time behind some disruption like chalice and sphere. The only difference is double vice opening hands that also contain early disruption, but as pointed out that is rare. But here again, I would find an extra piece of disruption more valuable in most cases behind a win like juggernaught or R. Masticore or something, heh.

[dandan]

May all of you pushing for the unrestricting of Vise meet a newbie with a hand of Vise and Stipmine/Wasteland one day. In our gloriously swingy format, there is no need to increase the number of luck wins.

I understand the logic here. Damage doesn't matter. Decks that deal damage over several turns lose to decks that just win. Lock first the kill. All true.

BUT

If Black Vise were a murderer I'd not parole the %@%@#%^@# even if he is 87. Vise is the Smallpox of Magic. There might be worse things out there now, but there is no advantage to releasing it.

It's not as if there aren't worse cards on the B&R list.

[darkstar138]

May all of you pushing for the unrestricting of Vise meet a newbie with a hand of Vise and Stipmine/Wasteland one day. In our gloriously swingy format, there is no need to increase the number of luck wins.

I understand the logic here. Damage doesn't matter. Decks that deal damage over several turns lose to decks that just win. Lock first the kill. All true.

BUT

If Black Vise were a murderer I'd not parole the %@%@#%^@# even if he is 87. Vise is the Smallpox of Magic. There might be worse things out there now, but there is no advantage to releasing it.

It's not as if there aren't worse cards on the B&R list.

Ok so some newbie is able to slaughter a terrible deck.  This would not bother me.  A workshop deck would take three then drop mox land lock peice.  A control deck probably would not waste force of will on vice.  This speeds up only red sligh strategies which are unviable because Chalice @ 1 owns then.  Most disruption is discard which would shut off vice.  I don't think it matters whether or not vice stays restricted or not because it isn't a useful card. 

[zeus-online]

Urh...so you'venever lost to getting your first two lands destroyed or what?

With vice its even worse.

/Zeus

[Lunar]

Urh...so you'venever lost to getting your first two lands destroyed or what?

With vice its even worse.

/Zeus

This is true...but what is winning the game here? Vice or the two lands getting destroyed?

[Vegeta2711]

Vise is never coming off the list because it doesn't deserve too. There's like 10 'fairer' cards that have to come off first and even then Vise won't come off for at least a few years (if ever).

[Roxas]

Sorry if this is off-topic, but it's spelled VISE damnit.  NO LETTER C.

Why are people so obsessed with "making aggro viable" anyway?  If it's not good, then it's just not playable, and there's no good reason to unrestrict cards in an effort to make it better.  Go read "Playing to Win" again if you cannot grasp this concept.

[netherspirit]

If it's not good, then it's just not playable, and there's no good reason to unrestrict cards in an effort to make it better.

I've gotta disagree, it seems stupid to me to have a card on the Restricted list because it was broken a long time ago. If it's not as powerful now, then it makes sense to me to unrestrict it. You guys seem to think it wouldn't see loads of play, so what's the problem with unrestricting it?

[zeus-online]

Urh...so you'venever lost to getting your first two lands destroyed or what?

With vice its even worse.

/Zeus

This is true...but what is winning the game here? Vice or the two lands getting destroyed?

Yeah you *might* loose cause you got no mana and have to sit on your hands, i have won several games from this position, i havent won any where i've been beaten down to 0 before i drew any new lands.

But yes, the worst part is the two lands getting blown away.

/Zeus