Budget U/W Vial Fish

[wake_of_destruction]

The new Jotun Grunt inspired me to rebuild my Fish deck. Here's what I came up with, tell me what you think. It's still a pretty traditional build with Standstills and Factories, because I just love those. Anyway, here's the list:

Lands: 21

3 Island
1 Plains
4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Creatures: 15

4 Meddling Mage
3 Voidmage Prodigy
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Stormscape Apprentice
2 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Others: 24

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal


Sideboard: 15

4 Pithing Needle
4 Seal of Cleansing
3 Energy Flux
2 Stifle
1 Jotun Grunt
1 Umezawa's Jitte

I've played with Azorius Guildmage instead of Stormscape Apprentice for a while, but his abilities were too expensive to be very useful, really. I also love Apprentice for the synergy with Ninja (and Prodigy, obviously, but Azorius had that as well). Jotun Grunt is just amazing, really. But running 4 clutters them up somewhat. Same for Voidmage Prodigy. Without Vial it's pretty slow and even then it's heavy on the manabase.

It's been running rather smoothly with this build, but I'm open to suggestions.

[Zarathustra]

This isn't the best version of U/W Fish.  Vial and Standstill are both outdated.  The link below shows the best iteration of U/W Fish.  There is also a tourney report to go with it:

U/W Fishy deck

I have to agree, Grunts are insane and I think four is the right number.  I would only run three Isamaru because I don't like drawing multiples.  Drawing multiples of a legend makes me uncontrollably for something close to an hour(but not really).

Standstill isn't that good anymore.  In general, Brainstorm is a billion times better.   

[sundering jerk]

Jotun Grunt ..... wow ..... now that's a T1 card! I think white is going to make a come back!

[Implacable]

Jotun Grunt ..... wow ..... now that's a T1 card! I think white is going to make a come back!

It's just blatantly silly in Type 1, because it takes a dump on the mana curve.  It can realistically stay alive for at least four turns, and if you have any other dudes, the other guy's dead.  He's not going to warp the metagame, but he does make Fish much, much better, to a degree where we can look at making it Tier 1. 

[Everrid1234]

I didnt test them yet but i think the Grunts are very good vs a lot of decks.
If they can replace the Tormod's Crypt by not having such a strong effect like Crypt and not instant (if dropped) but being a creature and beating each round they are imo very good, also vs. Aggro.

What do you think of this Creature-basis:

3 Stormscape Apprentice
3 Icatian Javelineers
4 Meddling Mage
3 Rootwater Thief
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

Playing 3 Ninjas could help with leaving out the Standstills but stil having a good Draw.
This are 22 creatures which is a lot for a fish deck, but they all have superb abilities.

[Zarathustra]

That's way too many creatures.  Eighteen is about the right number.  Anymore and you're not gonna have room for your much needed spells.

[Everrid1234]

So what about

4 Tundra
4 Fetchies
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Mishras Factory
2 Island
1 Plains

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire

4 FoW
3 Daze
3 Swords
3 Stifle

1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk

3 Null Rod

3 Stormscape Apprentice
3 Icatian Javelineers
4 Meddling Mage
2 Rootwater Thief
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours


2-of-creatures are suboptimal, i know....

Budget: Replace Moxen with lands and Ancestral/Walk with Stifle and Thief

[Yare]

Everrid,

I'm not really sure what you're looking for regarding your fish deck.  We've given you suggestions, some of which you've taken, some of which you haven't.  You give us another variant using all sorts of typical fish creatures, and then ask us what we think.  Honestly, you're the only person that can answer this question.  What sort of decks do you expect to face?  Do you want to play the deck aggressively, with the control aspect being secondary?  Or do you want to play more controlling, just holding on long enough to win (which is what I prefer)?

Test the deck out using what you have, either on MWS (alone or not), or in person.  Use the deep deck analysis tool to tell you what kind of opening hands you can expect.  Figure out if you are going to have early drops or not.  Then, maybe take it to a tournament and see how you do.  What worked, what didn't?  Were you surprised by this? Why or why not?

I might suggest eyeballing the fish decklists that have been successful over the last year or so.  Personally, I think something resembling my decklist from last September in Richmond is really good.  However, other people may not like it.  A lot of people dislike Flying Men.  I almost certainly will never run AEther Vial fish because I think Null Rod is just ridiculously good.  On the other hand, I know that Mr. Nicolo (I think his first name is Paul, but I'm not certain) loves his Vials and has had a lot of success with them.  More power to him (no pun intended), that's just not for me.  The general point is that a better strategy might be to start with what you know has worked in the past.

The overarching point is that we can armchair build and critique your deck forever, but until you decide what you want and what your metagame is, we can't really help you.  It's not going to be possible for us to go "Yes, that it is the perfect UW fish deck."  Yes, we can give suggestions about some cards in general, generic terms.  We just can't build your deck.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just trying to show you how things look from at least my perspective.  Others may or may not agree.

Regarding what you have posted most recently, again, I would suggest running four null rods, but you don't want to do that.  Black Lotus could come in, but I can see why people would not want to run it (I've debated cutting it myself).  Maybe you could run it in the sideboard if you can't come up with that 15th card on tournament day.  The manabase is fine, primarily since it's what I run, less the Lotus.  You should probably up the Swords to 4 and cut a creature or four.  You're all over the place with your creature base; I feel like you're not going to do anything particularly well.  Rootwater Thief beside Jotun Grunt seems especially out of place to me.  Either beat his face in or mill away his win conditions, not both.  Frankly, I feel like Grunt is probably generically better just because you have Meddling Mage who does part of Rootwater Thief's job as is.  I personally don't like Stormscape Apprentive (preferring Flying Men), but since you are only running 3 Ninjas, the flying isn't terribly important and so Apprentice is probably the right choice.  Three Kataki's make me nervous, but I know that I've never tested them thoroughly, so I really can't comment all that much.  Generally, I would say cut creatures for more spells, probably Null Rod, Swords to Plowshares, and then some utility card that you like, be it Mystical Tutor, Crucible of Worlds, another Daze, another Stifle, Black Lotus, Echoing Truth, or whatever.

Edit: Now that I think about it, the absence of Standstill, Brainstorm, AND Curiosity is fairly glaring.  You need to find room for at least 3 or 4 of one of these cards.  Personally, I think Curiosity is the best choice.  A lot of people also like Brainstorm.  Standstill is probably best avoided, especially since you're not running Vial.

[Everrid1234]

Yare,

try out Kataki and Null Rod vs. Stax (best vs. Uba Stax) and Slaver (of course, Affinity and 5/3,too) and you will see how extremely strong this creature is. It also Helps against Gifts, slowing the other player down. This creature is perfect: Heavy board control, improving the worst matchups AND beating (Null Rod needed to save Kataki from Trisk). In the tough Stax-Matchups i always want 4 of them in my deck. Its the best creature after Meddling Mage for Fish.

The draw is the biggest problem, I think we can't find a good solution. Brainstorm isn' playable without Confidants or a lot of shuffeling effects imo. At least about Ninjas we can come to a conclusion: 2-3 or even 4 are always a good addition.
You are right that leaving Standstill, Curiosity and Brainstorm out isnt looking very good on the paper but dropping a big tread instead of standstill (for example the Grunt) is also good. The main reason for leaving out all draw but the Ninjas is that there really is no very good draw atm. But I am still not sure about the Standstill...I will test further.

Although Meddling Mage and Rootwater Thief have a similar effect, playing both isn't wrong, they combine very good, Meddling Mage for 4-ofs and Rootwater for the 1-ofs. One or 2 activations are enough to make the other deck way weaker.

I would never play 4 Grunts and am not sure about playing 3, I think 2 main and 1-2 SB are a good choice (depending on the meta ).

Do you play Flying Men?
I would like to see your decklist....including SB

I don't share your opinion that a player has to chose a way for his Fish deck, either beating his face or controlling and killing in the long run. I think the most succesful decks are the decks which take the middle way. Belcher and Tendrils without Duress/FoW don't win a lot (as I can see), no.....the players include some hate or counters, wait a turn or two longer and kill the safer way. The decks which draw too many cards lose to some cheap aggro decks because they sometimes dont DO enough.

And a controlish Fish deck loses round 1 to Madness.
What for example makes the Grunt more interesting. He blocks Rotwallas (only an argument, dont let us discuss about if Madness is played in you meta).

[wake_of_destruction]

^^ You're right. At a certain point, when you know the staples, you just decide for yourself. I've been playing with Vials and Standstills for a long time now, and I love these cards. I've had succes with my Fish in tournaments, on MWS and in casual (but competitive) play, so I guess I'll stick to those.

I'll be testing hard to figure out that perfect creature base, but other than that I don't myself making any big changes any time soon.

Oh one more interesting card I'd like to mention that I don't think everyone knows is Azorius Guildmage. Works well with the Prodigy I ran 2 for a while but the abilities just proved a tad too expensive in the end. Still, interesting creature.

[wake_of_destruction]

That was to Yare, btw.

Yare,

try out Kataki and Null Rod vs. Stax (best vs. Uba Stax) and Slaver (of course, Affinity and 5/3,too) and you will see how extremely strong this creature is. It also Helps against Gifts, slowing the other player down. This creature is perfect: Heavy board control, improving the worst matchups AND beating (Null Rod needed to save Kataki from Trisk). In the tough Stax-Matchups i always want 4 of them in my deck. Its the best creature after Meddling Mage for Fish.

The draw is the biggest problem, I think we can't find a good solution. Brainstorm isn' playable without Confidants or a lot of shuffeling effects imo. At least about Ninjas we can come to a conclusion: 2-3 or even 4 are always a good addition.
Although Meddling Mage and Rootwater Thief have a similar effect, playing both isn't wrong, they combine very good, Meddling Mage for 4-ofs and Rootwater for the 1-ofs. One or 2 activations are enough to make the other deck way weaker.

I would never play 4 Grunts and am not sure about playing 3, I think 2 main and 1-2 SB are a good choice (depending on the meta ).

Do you play Flying Men?
I would like to see your decklist....including SB

I don't share your opinion that a player has to chose a way for his Fish deck, either beating his face or controlling and killing in the long run. I think the most succesful decks are the decks which take the middle way. Belcher and Tendrils without Duress/FoW don't win a lot (as I can see), no.....the players include some hate or counters, wait a turn or two longer and kill the safer way. The decks which draw too many cards lose to some cheap aggro decks because they sometimes dont DO enough.

And a controlish Fish deck loses round 1 to Madness.

Kataki is a very powerful creature indeed. I side some Fluxes to warrant me excluding them, but yeah. Running 3 is definitely not overkill. I wouldn't run Rootwater Thiefs, though. I mean this is a great creature and I've played with it for a long time but Meddling Mage is just better, and running both is slightly too much. There are better replacements. It's a bit slow and costly as well. Meddling Mage is also good against every deck (great against some), where Thief really is for specific match-ups.

I do disagree on Thief and Grunt being an awkward combination though. It's not like Grunt instantly makes Fish super aggro. It remains aggro-control, and preventing spells from happening will always be a part of its game plan. Still, the point stands that Meddling Mage is superior in this area and suffices creature-wise. Talking about the Grunt, I would have to say Everrid, that running 3 is a must. This is hardly arbitrary, not really up for debate, even. The Jotun Grunt is a sick creature. And unless your meta would surprisingly demand otherwise, it's an automatic 3-in. I'm probably going to be running 4 for a while now, see how that works out. Having run 3 for some time I can safely say so far I am amazed by this creature.

[Everrid1234]

I haven't tested enough to be sure that in most cases his hunger can be fed.
Of course he is cool, especially in certain metas. Like Rootwater Thief.

The point is I really dislike 2-ofs. So Grunt OR Thief for me. Or both and leaving out the draw (Standstill) but with the lack of draw I must test again.
If I can only play 20 creatures then: one in the Main and the other in the side. Rootwater is for certain matches like Grunt is for certain matches. It really depends on the metagame. Meddling Mage is a no-brainer 4-of, thats clear.

Flux is a bit outdated imo when Kataki is played. Of course: Must pay 2 etc. but the higher cost and being blue is bad.

[Yare]

Ok, I'll be the first to say that I haven't given Kataki that great a look and I definitely have not tested Grunt at all thus far.  I haven't really run Kataki since I'm a huge fan of Energy Flux (in the sideboard) just wrecking artifact heavy decks.  I have toyed with Kataki being played alongside Fluxes and in the stead of Fluxes, and just never run him for whatever reason.

So, I guess I'm going to have to withold a verdict on Grunt until I get a chance to get a feel with him, particularly in my own build. Maybe, just maybe, the answer is to cut Ninja and run 4 Grunt and 4 Curiosity.  Now, I know without a context that doesn't make a lot of sense, but I'm just going to throw it out there.

Speaking of my own build, I saw the request for decklists and I will post links...just not right this second because I can't access those lists at the moment.  They will be forthcoming though.  To answer your question though, yes, I have and still do play Flying Men.  That may change, but right this second Saffiyah's henchmen are still in on things.  The idea is that with so many of your drawers (namely Ninja and Curiosity) being dependent upon getting a successful swing, Flying Men are the compromise.  I am definitely not thrilled with them, but I just haven't been able to bring myself to replace them with anything else.

I haven't played a madness deck in a vintage tournament, ever.

Energy Flux being blue is a good thing: you're ever so slightly more blue mana heavy and it pitches to Force.  Sure, there's REB, but I just feel like Energy Flux hoses so much better due to the 2 rather than 1 upkeep.  Oh, and double Energy Flux in play is ridiculous (this obviously can't happen with Kataki, although Flux + Kataki could happen).

Edit: The lists are here:

http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=13343
http://www.morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=448 (tied for 1st 4 ways)

[Everrid1234]

Btw, there is no reason for playing Flying Men in a meta where no one blocks.....(if you play in pro combo metas)
You could also play Stormscape to handle early Colossus.

Any updates in anyone's decklist?
Did anyone include the Children of Korils? I find them a bit narrow.....

[Klep]

There is also no reason for necroing a thread that hasn't been posted in for a month and a half. Locked.

-Klep