Purchased a set of Unlimited Moxen, authenticity in question

[Aaron]

EDIT: All the latest info on this can be found in my next post in the thread. This first post is a necessary background read, but I have since learned new things.

Hi, everyone. 

First of all, I realize we have had several topics regarding counterfeit cards lately. I am making a new thread because 1) I have some new findings to share and 2) I need many additional opinions on the matter so I may take action ASAP. I apologize in advance if I should have simply replied to another topic, but I believe the problem is getting serious enough to warrant more discussion.

Last Saturday, I purchased a set of five Moxen at a local tournament. The Ruby and Pearl are fine; The problems begin with the Jet, Sapphire, and Emerald. I already had a Jet that I know is real, so it is my benchmark, and is the left card in every following picture.

Here is my Jet compared to the second Jet. As you can see, the second Jet is more transparent than mine. It seems very similar to Gabethebabe's Jet comparison: http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/Gabethebabe68/FAKE/JetFake_Light.jpg

I am 90% sure that the second Jet is a counterfeit.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/intelli78/P1000631.jpg

Next, are my Jet versus the Ruby, and then versus the Pearl. As I said above, I don't see anything wrong here.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/intelli78/P1000632.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/intelli78/P1000633.jpg

Here is my Jet versus the Emerald. This is hard for me to say, as the Emerald is MORE transparent, but not as much as the fake Jet.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/intelli78/P1000634.jpg

Finally, here is my Jet versus the Sapphire. Once again, we have some transparency.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/intelli78/P1000635.jpg

Basically, what is boils down to is that the Ruby and Pearl have no problems, while the Jet, Sapphire, and Emerald all have varying degrees of transparency. Like I said, I am pretty sure the Jet is fake. The other two I am not sure about.

Here is where it gets more interesting. I used a 30x microscope to examine various areas of each card. Contradictions galore. Here are some observations I made:

-The edge of the fake Jet is MUCH whiter than any of the other Moxen. HMMMMMMMMM, it looks like it was recently made. This one is definitely firewood.
-The "TM" symbol on the back of the Jet is yellow at 30x. It is pure white on all the others.
-The front border along the top of the three questionable Moxen is about 1.25 times thicker than three real ones. Is this pure coincedence? I don't know. It's not very different, but it is different.
-The middle blue layer exists on all the cards, real or not.

Overall, I have come up with a lot of conflicting evidence. One thing I can say for sure is that the print pattern itself seems to be very consistent between real and fake cards. Whoever is making these things has the printing down perfectly; their paper is the last remaining way to detect a fake, and as you can see from my pictures, is not even a certain method.

So, what do some of you think about my cards? Real or not? At this point, I am saying that the Ruby and Pearl are definitely real, the Emerald is probably real, the Sapphire MAY be real, and the Jet is fake. The Emerald and Sapphire really wouldn't surprised me either way, so I'd like some more opinions.

The whole situation reminds me of 1984. It's real if you think it's real -- And that's what it's coming down to.

Oh - and all of these cards were known to exist at least 2 years ago, so they're not part of a "new" rash of counterfeits.

[chrissss]

here is a very good explaination of real or fake

http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=28283.0

2nd to my knowledge, Beta and Alpha cards have more danger of being fake, unlimited is too difficult to do.

if youwant to be sure, buy a blacklight and scan them. (fake cards dont go blue)

or use the water test ( its all in the link I gave you)

goood luck

[ashiXIII]

The water test will damage fakes, just so you know. It's safe on a real card. The best way to do it is lay the card on a table with a napkin/paper towel nearby. Wet the tip of your index finger, and either just drip one drop onto the card, or even touch it lightly if you have to. The water should bead, and then you can dab it off with the towel. There shouldn't be any mark on the card. Also, read the sticky on the top about fake cards. It has a lot of excellent information, but it does weigh more towards Beta (as those cards are much more likely to be fake than Unlimited or even Alpha)

[Harlequin]

The water test only works on EX and up rated cards.  Anything in the Played and poor catagory, even if they are real will fail miserably at the water test.  I have 2 peices of power with heavy wear (esp on the back) from years of playing and shuffling apparently without sleaves!

[Aaron]

It looks like you guys have not seen Gabethebabe's pictures: http://s61.photobucket.com/albums/h56/Gabethebabe68/FAKE/

I am going to sum up what I know here:

-All six Moxen pass the bend and water tests just fine.

-The real Jet, the Pearl, and the Ruby are very opaque, and I am sure they are real.

-The other Jet, Sapphire, and Emerald are all MORE transparent than the other three, but not to the extent that Gabe's were. You would not be able to read the text through the back. This seems to suggest a slight difference in manufacturing, rather than a completely different type of paper.

-I know the Sapphire, the Ruby, and the Emerald to all be at least 2 years old, because I saw the EXACT cards back then. I don't think anybody was making these quality fakes two years ago. I do NOT know where the questionable Jet came from, but I will find out from the previous owner.

-The three questionable Moxen have a slightly thicker card border. However, I have an Unlimited Stream of Life with the same thing, and there's no way in hell that the Stream of Life is fake.

I have taken four additional pictures, using a 100w light source (last time, it was only 60w). The questionable Jet is slightly more transparent than the real one, and is exactly the same as the Sapphire and Emerald. However, none of them are as transparent as Gabe's.

Real Jet versus questionable Jet:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/intelli78/P1000636.jpg

Real Jet versus Sapphire:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/intelli78/P1000637.jpg

Real Jet versus Emerald:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/intelli78/P1000638.jpg

Questionable Jet versus Sapphire:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v246/intelli78/P1000639.jpg

As you can see, there is a tangible difference in the paper quality of some of these. However, with these 100w pictures, and additional research through the microscope, I think scientifically they are all real. In Gabe's case, it was clear that the fakes were see-through. Mine let more light through, but nothing like Gabe's do. I think it is possible Wizards did not use completely consistent paper, and I will try to do more tests once I obtain more Unlimited cards.

Confusing? Ohhh yeah.

[Jacob Orlove]

Keep in mind that back in '93, the printing process was nowhere near as standardized as it is now. It's entirely possible that the wider borders are from a sheet that wasn't cut perfectly, stuff like that. These may indeed be fakes (it's very hard to tell online), but that's not a giveaway or anything.

My advice is to take them to an experienced dealer, if possible, and have them evaluate the cards in person.

[Aaron]

By "borders", I mean the black frame around the perimeter of the ink on the card, not the white borders. But as I have said, I have a Stream of Life exhibiting the same variance, so even that doesn't seem to prove anything. I would take pictures, but it requires a microscope.

There is one dealer in town who used to buy and sell a LOT of power on eBay, and he had no problems with these - I could sell them all to him right now if I wanted to.

The questionable Jet is the piece I am most concerned about. It's the one that gave me a bad vibe in the first place, and the only one that had a variation in the TM logo (under the microscope, it is a TOTALLY DIFFERENT COLOR). When I look at the six cards all together, that Jet just doesn't seem right. I can't even explain it, but something in the back of my head says "this thing wasn't around in 1993". None of the other pieces give me this vibe. They give me a warm, fuzzy feeling, but the Jet just seems like a coaster.

This power is for me, in any case, and everything except that Jet is real enough that it doesn't bother me. I think I am going to try to get my money back on the Jet, and keep the rest of it. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has about the same transparency as a duck, and looks the same as a duck under a microscope, I can only conclude one thing.

All my cards are ducks. 

[Yare]

This kind of gets into a small discussion that was had a very long time ago on TMD involving whether "really good fakes" effectively become "real."  Now, I'm not advocating making fakes or promoting that, however, at some point you have to say "there is no way any reasonable person could conclude that this is a fake just by looking at it normally."  No judge is gonna hold your power up to a black light.

That being said, if it matters that much to you that your power be "truly" authentic, I would agree with taking them to a dealer or even having them tested by PSA (I have no idea if they actually do that).  One thing I would recommend against doing is sending them to WotC to test, as they keep all fakes.  Not that I think that you would, just wanted to give you a fair warning.

They seem real enough to me.  Best of luck.

[Aaron]

To me, part of the allure and fun of owning power is to know that kids used to play with it back in the day like it was nothing. It's cool to have a card and to be able to say "this was around in 1993".

If someone were to GIVE me a card that was EXACTLY the same as all real cards - EXACTLY the same - but I knew it wasn't real, it would still be ruined for me. The history of a collectible object contributes to what it is.

With that said, I'm pretty damn sure that any dealer would find everything except the second Jet to be fine. If any of them besides that Jet are fake, they are so good that I will never know. The only thing I do know is that they were all in known existence several years ago, which is good enough to me. The very good Unlimited fakes seem to be a very new occurence, showing up only in the past few months.

I am going to acquire a black light, however, and perform that as a final test. If they pass, I think they are home free. (Except the Jet, I think I have enough evidence suggesting it's fake. It just looks funky, and that TM logo is something that separates it from the others.)

[CrashTest]

Hey, the most important picture you did not have!

        I need to see the front! Front of all of the cards!

       Some of those cards are really worn, so that can affect how light is passed through, or at least one's perception of it. Let us see a good shot of the fronts of the cards, so that the print can be looked at. A lot of times, you can tell if it is real or not by the front.

          In unlimited fakes, the face of the card is the key. 

 You mentioned the Mox Jet border/edge was much whiter, that's normal for nicer condition cards, but I may know more after looking at the fronts.
     

         

[Aaron]

I will link you to a very high-res photo. The Jet below the others is the one I think is fake. It just isn't like the others, but I can't really put my finger on what the problem is. I think it's a combination of slightly different cardstock, and too vivid colors. Keep in mind I have examined the front and back of all of these with a microscope, only finding one piece of evidence (the TM on that Jet).

http://cp05.ionhosting.com/~pocketlo/P1000642.JPG

[Royal Ass.]

I'm curious as to how much you paid for the cards, and what you know about the seller.   If the seller knew they were fake, but also knows the value of real cards, they would be more likely to sell you the fake cards at a deflated price.

Also, you chould try the light test comparing the questionable moxes to other unlimited cards you know are in fact real and in the same condition as the questionable moxes.  It's hard to compare your beated jet to a minty one because the white sploches on your beaten one could affect your judgement of how they are passing light thought.

Lastly, on the picture of the fronts of the cards, the Mox and Sapphire have much whiter text in the card name and under Mono Artifact when compared to the other cards. However this could just be because they are in better condition. 

If you really must know, send them in to PSA.  (though I've heard they are also known to make mistakes)

I have never done any testing on my unlimited power, but I've had it long enought that I know it isnt fake...

[Yare]

Could you remove the red line from your picture scan and then put it side by side with a real Jet?  That would be very helpful.

Oh, and $4 Mana Drains on that newsgroup posting make me cry.

[Aaron]

Tonight I was able to compare all this stuff to other power known to be 100% real - Let me say that I have made a complete ass out of myself. These cards are NOT fake. I completely overreacted to the amount of light passing through them. I was totally convinced I had a bunch of fakes on my hands, but in reality they are exactly the same as the 100% real power.

The moment of realization came when I realized that fake unlimited cards have absolutely zero fibers in them. The amount of light passing through is not the concern, it is whether or not there are fibers in the cardstock.

This episode has been quite a learning process for me, as you can tell from my blogging in this thread.