New Card Discussion: Lotus Bloom

[Dxfiler]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/arcana/1148

Artifact
 Suspend 3 - 0
(Rather than play this card from your hand, pay 0 and remove it from the game with three time counters on it.  At the beginning of your upkeep, remove a time counter.  When you remove the last, play it without paying your mana cost.)

Tap: Sacrifice Lotus BLoom: Add three mana of any one color to your mana pool

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The second coming of Lotus?  I personally don't think so.  It's definitely cute with welder, and it looks like it will be impactful, but I don't see this as format breaking in vintage.  In type two it looks like a beast.  In vintage it looks like it will have its niche.  Tinkering for it and then welding it back in, discarding it to thirst and welding it in.  Just putting it in the same sandbox as welder in general :p  Those are the obvious uses. 

Could it be totally broke?  I suppose.  On the surface, it looks strong but not broken.  Only time will tell I guess.

Feel free to discuss.

- Dave Feinstein

[wethepeople]

it certainly has potential. i can see this taking part in several vintage decks, but its not going to be a required slot to all decks.

[Pitlord]

I don't really know if this card is going to be broken, I highly doubt it. Since they restricted Chrome Mox and Mox diamond, this will probably get restricted as well, because it makes more mana than it costs to play. With it restricted, it will still be good, but I don't think it will become an auto include. I Think that only decks with goblin welder will be able to truely abuse this, especially slaver, where it is another artifact to pitch and becomes lotus number 2 a lot.

At least we know that wizards hasn't completely forgotten about vintage, and I am glad to see them pushing the envolope with things like storm coming back and now this. The second auto-include everywhere black lotus it isn't, but a decent car it is.

[GrandpaBelcher]

Granted, I am bad at seeing all the nuances of cards, but I tend to agree.  Lotus is broken because it accelerates turn one to turn four.  This accelerates turn four to turn seven.  Shrug.  It's not as good as Gilded Lotus for welding in, but it might make more controlling combo decks viable.  I.E. Drop a Lotus Bloom or two on turn one and refill your hand with protection and a two-card combo along the line of Illusions-Donate, then win turn four.  I predict restriction, but it will be played about like Lotus Petal.

This can still be countered, yes?  How does this work with Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance?


Edit: edited numbers because I'm bad at math.

[psu42]

Ignore

[Komatteru]

I'm not a judge, but I have to imagine it can't be countered and isn't affected by Sphere of Resistance or Trinisphere as it has no casting cost and those cards can't be played. "Rather than play..."

Incorrect.  The card is still played.  Anything on the stack is a legal target for a counterspell, regardless of how it actually got there.  You can counter storm copies, after all.

Trinisphere will ALWAYS apply.  With Trinisphere out, it is not possible to play a spell without paying 3 mana in some way shape or form.  It's a replacement effect, and it will hit this card as well.  Sphere of Resistance will hit it as well.

However, It will still be countered by Chalice for 0, since the spell is still played.

However, there is one thing I'm not sure about: do you have to play the spell?  Reminder text isn't always the best source for complete rules info, and the ability might be worded as "You may play this spell" when it gets entered into the comp rules.  If it's not, you will have to play it if it is possible for you to pay the cost--i.e., even if there is SoR and a Chalice 0 out, and you have 1 open mana, you will have to pay the one mana to play the spell and have it be countered.  If you can't pay additional costs for it, well, there's nothing that can be done, and I'm sure it would either stay RFG or go to the graveyard (probably the former).

It will count as your spell for the turn under Arcane Lab.

You can still counter the spell when the last counter is removed.

[wethepeople]

i wonder how much this is going to cost. i am guessing it will go for a similar price as chrome mox, maybe cheaper. i am going to buy one, just because i like it..

[TopSecret]

     I hate to be the one to ask, but does this work with Shahaaraarraradaazaazzad?

[Gabethebabe]

Am I the only one that can count? You RFG it turn 1, you play it turn 4.

It is certainly an interesting card. Also from a rules point of view, because what is the mana cost when it is in play and when it is on the stack? There isn´t a manacost at the right upper corner. I suppose it will be zero.

[wethepeople]

     I hate to be the one to ask, but does this work with Shahaaraarraradaazaazzad?

its Shahrazad.

[chrissss]

looks pretty though, and its the closest thing I will ever get to a mox, so

I am going to buy it, and test it in my tendrils deck.

This card will be restricted though, playing one or 2 in the first turn, means that turn 4 you will have a lot of mana, and like someone said, most artifacts that give more than they cost, are restricted in the best format ever.

I like the ability though, I think we are going to see a lot of nice cards with this ability.

[SyntheticAngel]

Do you think this card will see play in the current combo decks?

Rather than ask a one-liner, I would suggest providing something of substance for people to chew on.  Consider replying to this thread just as demanding as starting a new one would be; we need posts with some subject matter.

-Kowal[/color]

[EnialisLiadon]

I don't like it.  It looks like it falls under the Black Vise category of cards--only good during the first few turns, especially the first.

I can't see it in combo, and I see it as situationally decent in slaver decks.

Though this could make the tendrils kill of burning slaver better--I always found it unreliable.

[Evenpence]

WOTC is doing a fantastic (ABSOLUTELY FANTASTIC) job of incorporating cards which are useful in Eternal Formats into T2 without having them be distortedly broken to the Standard Formats.

This is something we should all be very thankful of.  If anyone from Wizards is reading, especially Mr. Rosewater, I think I speak for the Vintage community when I say:  Thank you for making a conscious effort to create cards which are useful in the Eternal Format.

Also, I love that they keep using Lotus references in current cards.  Allusions, for me, keep the memory and the flavor of Magic alive.  This card is amazingly well done.  "Lotus Bloom," blooming to full potential.

Absolutely brilliant.

That being said, MOX DIAMOND is on the restricted list.  This card is MUCH better than Mox Diamond.  Don't think combo - think anything with medium sized draw spells.  Although this might be stupid in combo - I've never tested anything like this mechanic.

[arj]

At least it's going to be a real nice proxy for a real lotus

[Conan_barberarn]

This card looks truly terrible for type1. Having no mana cost means (like Evermind) means that the spell can't be played => you can't replay it with Will. Once in your grave (after 4 turns!!!) it plays no role whatsoever except for the farfetched welder interaction.

To have 1 less card during the 4 first turns of the game (my guess is that 90 % of all games are allready settled in the first 4 turns) is a huge drawback and the investment doesn't pay of at all. All the mana I'm interested in is to either get UU, BBB or lots of artifact mana available 1st turn.

/Gustav

[vartemis]

I too think it has its limits in Vintage.  The only real use for it will be to weld it in.  To have made it playable, they should have gave it a casting cost of . If Gilded Lotus had a casting cost of , and it stuck around, surely this could warrant a cost of 4 because it sacks.  That way you could also play it off a will. As of right now, the only decks I could see it in is stax and slaver due to their welder ability, or maybe 2 land belcher, but thats unlikely.

j

[Enzo90910]

I agree that this card seems too slow to see play in Vintage, but the "Suspend" mechanic is in my opinion a forebearer of very good things as far as Type-1 playable "Time Spiral" cards are concerned. "Lotus Bloom" shows us an example of known very strong power (Black Lotus) balanced by a clear disadvantage (Suspend). Maybe the WOTC R&D intends to have several others cards in the same spirit (Ancestrall Recall/Suspend 3, Channel/Suspend 3, Time Walk/Suspend 4, Tinker without the artifact sac/Suspend 5,...).

Such a set would be a dream for Vintage players and really deserving of the "'Time Spiral" name.

OK, I may be reading a little too much in this preview card, but it would be nice

[Mr. Nightmare]

I'd still consider running it as a 1-of in Long decks.

Lotus -> Tinker -> Jar -> LED -> Will -> Lotus -> LED -> Tinker -> Bloom -> retarded.

[Polynomial P]

This card is tough to compare to known cards. I think the best example is topdecking lotus on turn 4. Yes, it is good, but it isnt as broken as turn 1 lotus. However, if you topdeck this on turn 4, it wont do anything until turn 7! That and the inability to use this off Yawgwin will push this card into the near unplayable range in vintage.

[cssamerican]

Think about this, no one plays Gilded Lotus and it stays around, so the Welder interaction is worthless. It can not be hardcasted, ever. Once again Gilded Lotus seems better. The only good thing is, it requires no mana to be invested in it; however, I don't think that makes up for all its drawbacks. It takes three turns to pass before it becomes usefull, which means three turns for somone to pull a Chalice, Null Rod, or a counter if need be. Black Lotus>>>Lion's Eye Diamond>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Lotus Bloom.

[vroman]

I just checked mtgsalvation and there are 10 cards up from this set, almost all of which look solidly playable in some format. This might set might be a major overhaul for vintage.

-R1 sorcery = 1 damage, storm
-G2 instant = naturalize, uncounterable
some land = universal fetch for basics, no drawback

[vartemis]

some land = universal fetch for basics, no drawback

Fetched land comes into play tapped, but fetching eot could get around this.  It also doesnt cost a life IIRC.

j

[Purple Hat]

maybe that land will finally push koblod aggro into viability.....then again....maybe not.

suspend cards look problematic for type 2 but I feel like auto mulligan to guarentee turn 4 lotus isn't all that good.  the game will probably already be decided or over by the time you get your lotus especially given you're starting with a 6 card hand.

[L_O_L]

Come on guys, let's not give up on this newfound gem just yet.  If we're not going to come up with something broken, who is ?  It's been a while since R&D gave us such a nice present, let's not disappoint them .

Some random thoughts :

1) Some weird Ritual based combo deck that runs 4 of these and Aether Snap for the win ?  Farfetched indeed.
2) A Tinker/Transmute Artifact/Reshape deck that abuses this may or may not work.
3) A well-timed Eureka FTW ?
4) Does Power Conduit help anything ?

All of this is probably too slow/complicated.  Just trying to contribute to the discussion.

[Harlequin]

Well for power conduit, and Aether Snap ... they simply do not work because the card is not in play.  so it is not a permenant and it is not targetable. 

I'm not sure a card this slow could ever be used effectively.  Its a bit like our favorite topdeck tutors, or even Isochronic Scepter, or dare I say panoptic mirror?  -- Initial card disadvantage for some longterm gain -- This concept has never really worked in T1.  Think of how "amazing" Aether Vial is.  Essentially its a bit like Aether vial, but with out the instant speed / uncounterable / long lasting benefit.  In this case, its initial card disadvantage for a minor tempo boost on turn 3?  I would sooner run Enlighten tutor for Lotus... at least thats only a 1 turn set-back.

[cssamerican]

-R1 sorcery = 1 damage, storm
-G2 instant = naturalize, uncounterable

The red storm spell is really nice because it can hit creatures as well as players. But the real interesting card so far is the green spell. It has some new mechanic called Split Second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't play spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities.).The mechanic is an uncounterable Abeyance in conjuction with instant speed wins. For example, Dragon could cast a card with this mechanic then in response cast Necromancy and win without the opponent able to do ANYTHING to stop it. It migh not be broken right now, but just having the ability to win without your opponent able to stop you is a powerfull mechanic that will be broken at some point in time.

[Harlequin]

It has some new mechanic called Split Second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't play spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities.).The mechanic is an uncounterable Abeyance in conjuction with instant speed wins. For example, Dragon could cast a card with this mechanic then in response cast Necromancy and win without the opponent able to do ANYTHING to stop it.

Im not sure how your going to play Necromancy "in response" when you cannot play spells or abilites.  The Split Second Mechaninc doesn't make any of your other spells less counterable... but it IS very very powerful.  It means you can Blast something and your opponent cannot respond by welding that thing out.  Or if your opponent plays Memory Jar, it resolves, then they play some other card from thier hand, you could respond to it by Split Second killing the Jar and they will not be able to pop the jar in response to its destruction.    The same applies for Mindslaver.  and it becomes a great tool for destroying a patient triskellion.

I think Split Second practically defines a "good" ability in T1 something that happens RIGHT NOW, where Susspend is a "bad" ability because its a cost right now for some future benefit.

[cssamerican]

Your right Harlequin. I got excited and thought it only applied to the opponent, but I still like the fact that it prevents you opponent from doing anything to prevent that spell from resolving.

[Harlequin]

Your right, the spell with Split Second is absolutly less counterable.  But all your Other spells are not less counterable.  There is no way to make the necromacy less counterable.  If you cast the Split Second card first, then you cannot cast Necromancy untill the Split Second card is off the stack (has resolved).  If you cast Necromancy and then without passing priority cast the Split Second Spell... well all your opponent has to do is allow the Split Second Spell to resolve and then Necromancy will still be on the stack, so they can drain/force/tormod's the target/etc etc... essentially the Necromancy is not protected at all by the Split Second card.  (it acutally can't even kill a chalice set at 3 - because it doesn't prevent the chalice from ~Triggering~).... well I suppose it could be used to Target a Tormod's Crypt and they will not be able to blow the crypt "in response" to your split spell.