Smmenen, The Invitational, and the unexplored Online format...

[DJ Catchem]

While I would certainly love to see a response from Smmenen on this, I am absolutely throwing this question out to the vintage community as a whole.  You guys all know your stuff. 

In his SCG article, "Breaking The Invitational", Smmenen, as usual, wrote a fantastic account of developing the 8.5 Tails/Storm Combo list he designed for the Classic Vanguard portion of the 2006 Invitational.  In rereading the article, I took particular note of this quote:

"...Oh how I wish Brainstorm was legal! With all of the eggs and Chromatic Spheres, I could really bust Lion's Eye Diamond if Brainstorm were legal and optimize/perfect my hand at the same time...."

With Coldsnap now Online, Brainstorm is finally a possibility.  Which leads me to my question...

Is there a broken Storm combo list that is Online Classic legal?  Not necessarily Vanguard-legal, but plain Classic?  I have been testing a fairly strong list that is pretty similar to the list Smmenen proposed, using the additional synergy of Infernal Tutor/LED to give the deck a fantastic level of redundancy, as well as abusing the ability to run Mind's Desire unrestricted.  But it's not nearly solid enough to stand up to proper control strategies in my testing.  In addition, there have been attempts by the Online community to take various Easter Tendrils and Sensei Sensei/Brain Freeze lists to competetive tournaments, but the former seems to fizzle fairly easily due to the fragility of the combo, and the latter relies on a multi-card specific combo, leading to Extraction problems compounded by a general lack of speed and enough protection. 

For those of you who have tuned Vintage combo to bleeding-edge...what are your thoughts?

--->DJ

[Machinus]

Smmenen's Vanguard deck ended up not being much different from normal decks, because of the way they ran the auction (bidding brought down the cards in hand).

Building this deck on modo must be a huge, non-redeemable investment : (

[DJ Catchem]

Smmenen's Vanguard deck ended up not being much different from normal decks, because of the way they ran the auction (bidding brought down the cards in hand).

Building this deck on modo must be a huge, non-redeemable investment : (

That is true, on both counts.  As far as building it online, it's not such a big deal, though.  I'm a retired cardboard player, due to lack of a good place to play in my area and several other serious time investments, such as a wife.    THe ability to log on for a while here and there to catch a game is fantastic, and this is as close to an Eternal format as I can get.  (In some cases, better; like I said before, four Mind's Desire in one deck...)  So I don't mind dropping a few dollars to be able to run Dragon or Storm Combo.  Besides...there are player-run events popping up now quite frequently, and it's starting to get fairly competetive. 


Here's the build I was running for reference:

4 Archaeological Dig
4 Crystal Vein
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
3 Seething Song
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Shadowblood Egg
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Spoils Of The Vault
3 Mind's Desire
2 Tendrils Of Agony
4 Duress

SIDEBOARD
1 Mind's Desire
1 Tendrils Of Agony
1 Infernal Contract
4 Shattering Spree
1 Dematerialize
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Recoup
1 Sway Of The Stars
1 Cranial Extraction

I realize there are some glaring holes in the design...being able to only play Desire after tutoring and saccing LED in response is just one of them.  So I'm interested in what you guys would do differently...Smmenen's quote about Brainstorm got me thinking, and I still can't see a good way to include Brainstorm (or a stronger blue component in general) in a deck that is so black and red-heavy without some of the tools that aren't available yet Online.

--->DJ 

[Smmenen]

Your builds looks like a good start.     I would consider also trying the Elvish Champion build.   With Brainstorm, the focus should be on abusing Desire with LEDs as quickly as possible.  Good catch. 

I would disagree with Machinus characterization though - my deck was still retarded if you watch the games play out.

[Machinus]

I would disagree with Machinus characterization though - my deck was still stupid if you watch the games play out.

I was talking about Vanguard vs. regular magic. Your deck still ended up using ~7 cards in hand, ~20 life for that tournament.

[DJ Catchem]

I appreciate the replies.  Thanks very much.

I guess my question would be in reference to the mana base.  It seems much easier to abuse Brainstorm with a proper five-color vintage-style mana base; City of Brass, Glimmervoid, possibly Tendo (or even Dig) to replace Gemstone Mine.  The problem I run into is that the majority of the accelerants have a CC of two, and I do see times when I drop a turn one Egg or Sphere off a Dig, and then get stuck looking for source number two.  Brainstorm will theoretically help in this area, but I feel like it may be putting all of my eggs in one fragile basket.  The other problem becomes a need for blue mana off the Egg/Sphere to set up, versus a need for red mana for the big accelerators.  With that in mind, does it make sense to modify the mana base from the Dig/Vein configuration, or is that acceleration still too important?   

The other major question that I've been debating is protection.  Since this deck tries to win as fast as possible, does it care about running Duress? (At least pre-board?)  I noticed that both of the Invitational builds eschew maindeck protection for raw speed, and rely on wish power instead to bring key spells to bear.  Somehow, although I feel this is stronger in the Classic environment, the cardboard player in me is cringing... 

--->DJ

[droper]

Right now the are no classic tournaments in Magic online

It would be great, I have already managed to make a consistent turn 3 Dragon build but terrible to play as it takes a lot of time to operate the combo extract mana, etc (millions of clicks).... In a tournament it would cause you to time out.

Here is the list:

http://www.moxes.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=1475


This is the firs one, I'm now testing with brainstorm and more fetches to allow me play more basic lands to get the combo clicking thing easier.


Brainstorm is nuts I'm already making a nice storm list, but I Will not reveal it until the first premier event I play in Magic online with it.
(The list is pretty simple, probably you are developing it too  )

[DJ Catchem]

Right now the are no classic tournaments in Magic online

No *official* WoTC-sanctioned ones.  There is a pretty decent Classic community that has risen up to hold Player-Run Events.  Check this link:

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=690783

It's updated with the wrong info at the moment (due to the changing over to the new message boards), but Danger runs a Classic tourney every other weekend.  The last one, on Aug. 19th, brought in 28 people, was free to enter, and was giving out Draft sets to the winners among other prizes.  The next event is on Saturday, September 2nd.

Actually, there are several people who have shown up playing Dragon at these things.  One of the guys who helps run the tournaments has a list that is that consistant as well.  One thing I will note about your list is that *tons* of people come packing graveyard hate, and with the recent addition of Swords To Plowshares, it would be suicide to run a Dragon list with no Duress/counters.

--->DJ

[droper]

Thank you for the information about those tournaments.

I will try to play one of them soon and donate something

I didn't know that there is a coommunity like that in mtgo


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Yes graveyard hate kill this deck, but is a nice deck to have fun with it, I hate mking millions of clicks to make the combo go off

Im researching something very similar to your list, i nfact only the mana base is diferent, the other cards are almost he same ones

Ill test your list too