Turn Zero kill?

[technogeek5000]

I was just wondering is there any possible way to get a kill before the beginning of your first turn. I am, of course, going to explore the possibilities of turn zero plays and how they can be turned into a kill before your first turn.

Turn Zero possible 0 cost mana sources:
Elvish spirit guide
(coming in time spiral) Gemstone Caverns


Elvish spirit guide is a 3 mana 2/2 that can be removed from your hand to make 1 green mana. Gemstone Caverns is a land that you can start play with if it is in your hand.  but you have to remove a card from your hand so this might pose a problem.

turn zero cards playable:
instants
cards with the effect: ... can be played as a instant.
the leyline cycle.
all other cards with vedelkan

1392(all the instants ever printed[excluding un-sets]) +168(interrupts) +50 (instant speed cards) + 5 (Leylines)= 1615 possible cards to be layed during your opponents turn or to start the game with.

Note: I realize if this were possible you would need the best luck in the world so lets talk hypothetically, so lets leave chance out of this discusion.

Since dark ritual is instant speed we can add 3 more to our mana base. Also there is plenty of instant speed draws.I know that misdirecting a fireball/channel combo would win you the game so please don't mention this. The combo should be tournament legal so don't saysomething like: ancestral recall 4 times.

One card that comes to mind is Volcanic geyser. It is a fireball for 2 red instead of one at instant speed. So here is the challenge: come up with a instant speed mana combo that will pump this up to burn your opponent for 20 and have 2 red to cast it with.

My zero turn lists may be incomplete. If you know one I forgot then please mention it and it will be added.

[Jacob Orlove]

It was possible to win before taking a turn before Gemstone Caverns. The key was to get Vedalken Orrery into play.

The caverns will make it a lot easier, though--they let you use Flash and Academy Rector, not to mention Crop Rotation (cast off ESG), which can get Phyrexian Tower to sac Rector. You probably have to just get Bargain with Rector, and then Flash a second Rector to get Dream Halls for the win.

That takes 8 cards in the opening hand to win, though (Flash, Rector, ESG, Crop Rotation, 2x Caverns, 2x RFG'd cards), and you have to figure out how to get UW for the second Flash/Rector pair (if you can get back Crop Rotation, SKycloud Expanse works), so there's still room for optimization.

[parallax]

Gemstone Cavern, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Entomb (putting Worldgorger Dragon in your graveyard), Necromancy for infinite mana. You still have two one card in your hand to win with infinite mana.

[technogeek5000]

 :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

wow... just plain wow. That is pretty interesting. I will have to put veldeken orrey in the playable turn zero list.

parralax I am confused how yours works.

[parallax]

How do you get Vedalken Orrery in play?

When you cast Necromancy and bring the Dragon back from your graveyard, the Dragon removes Necromancy and the Caverns from play. When the Necromancy leaves play, it kills the Dragon. When the Dragon dies, it brings Necromancy and Caverns back to play. Tap the Caverns for and bring the Dragon back. You can gain an arbitrary amount of mana this way. Still working on the actual kill, though.

[technogeek5000]

ah i understand thank you for ellaborationg

[parallax]

OK. This one's an actual kill.
Opening Hand: Gemstone Caverns, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Entomb, Necromancy, Barren Moor, Volcanic Geyser.
Start the game with Gemstone Caverns in play.
Tap it for . Cast Ritual, Ritual. ( floating.)
Entomb Golgari Thug. ( floating.)
Cycle Barren Moor and replace the draw with dredging the Thug. ( floating.)
Put Karmic Guide; Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker; Sky Hussar and Thermopod in your graveyard from your library.
Cast Necromancy on Karmic Guide. ( floating)
Return Kiki-Jiki to play with Karmic Guide.
Tap Kiki-Jiki to copy Karmic Guide, returning Sky Hussar to play.
Sky Hussar untaps Kiki-Jiki. Tap Kiki-Jiki to copy Sky Hussar.
The copy of Sky Hussar untaps Kiki-Jiki. Tap Kiki-Jiki to copy Sky Hussar. Repeat until you have millions of Sky Hussar tokens.
The last copy of Sky Hussar untaps Kiki-Jiki. Tap Kiki-Jiki to copy Karmic Guide, returning Thermopod to play.
Sacrifice all your Sky Hussar tokens to make millions of mana.
Cast Volcanic Geyser for as much as you like.

Doesn't work. Missing a card to pitch to Gemstone Cavern.

[Jacob Orlove]

The problem with the theoretical Orrery kill is that it required specific actions from your opponent--Tempting Wurm, Eureka, or the like. You can read more here: http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=18979.0

[That0neguy]

Gemstone Caravan
Card to pitch
Quicken>card to pitch
Gemstone Caravan
Mana Clash
Force of Will
Blue Card

Needs a ton of luck but its still possible.  Also the others are probably better.

[parallax]

You can't play multiple Gemstone Caverns because they are Legendary Lands.

The Mana Clash kill does work with Gemstone Cavern, random card, Elvish Spirit Guide, Crop Rotation, Quicken, Force of Will, blue card.
Play the Cavern, tap for blue, Crop Rotation for a Volcanic Island, Quicken drawing Mana Clash, Mana Clash. With Force back-up, no less. You can use Daze if it's not a mirror match, too.

And Jacob: Flash has been errataed. It doesn't combo with Rector any more.

My kill above forgot to take the pitched card to Caverns into account. Here is a fixed version.

Opening hand: Gemstone Cavern, random card to pitch, four Dark Rituals and a Skeletal Scrying.

Start the game with Gemstone Cavern in play (pitching a card). (Cards: 5 Mana: )
Tap Caverns for . Play 4 Dark Rituals. (Cards: 1 Mana: )
Skeletal Scrying for four, removing all four Rituals. (Cards: 4 Mana: )
Draw Entomb, Barren Moor, Cabal Ritual and Skeletal Scrying.
Entomb, putting Golgari Grave-Troll into your graveyard. (Cards: 3 Mana: )
Cycle Barren Moor, dredging the Troll. (Cards: 3 Mana: )
Put Karmic Guide; Kiki-Jiki Mirror Breaker; Sky Hussar; Thermopod; and two other cards into your graveyard.
Cast Cabal Ritual with threshold. (Cards: 2 Mana: )
Skeletal Scrying for three, removing the Entomb and two random dredged cards. (Cards: 4 Mana: )
Draw Songs of the Damned, Necromancy, and Volcanic Geyser.
Cast Songs of the Damned for four mana. (Cards: 3 Mana: )
Cast Necromancy. (Cards: 2 Mana: )
Return the Karmic Guide to play. Use Karmic Guide to return Kiki-Jiki to play. Tap Kiki-Jiki to copy Karmic Guide. Return Sky Hussar to play. Sky Hussar untaps Kiki-Jiki. Tap Kiki-Jiki to make a copy of Sky Hussar. The copy untaps Kiki-Jiki. Repeat until you have many, many Sky Hussar tokens. The last token untaps Kiki-Jiki. Tap Kiki-Jiki to copy Karmic Guide, returning Thermopod to play.
Sacrifice all your Sky Hussar tokens to Thermopod for an arbitrarily large amount of mana.
Cast Volcanic Geyser for as much as you like. (Cards: 1, the Golgari Grave-Troll)

[Jacob Orlove]

And Jacob: Flash has been errataed. It doesn't combo with Rector any more.

Sure it does. You just need an extra 1W and a sacrifice outlet. It's not stupid broken the way it used to be, but if you actually just want to play Rector at instant speed, Flash is the card you need. (that's why I have two caverns in my solution, for W and U). I didn't notice that they're legendary, though, so I'll need some other way of getting that mana--probably via a different Crop Rotation target, and some other sac outlet.

[parallax]

And Jacob: Flash has been errataed. It doesn't combo with Rector any more.

Sure it does. You just need an extra 1W and a sacrifice outlet. It's not stupid broken the way it used to be, but if you actually just want to play Rector at instant speed, Flash is the card you need. (that's why I have two caverns in my solution, for W and U). I didn't notice that they're legendary, though, so I'll need some other way of getting that mana--probably via a different Crop Rotation target, and some other sac outlet.

Sorry. I misunderstood. Your solution couldn't generate the extra two mana, which is why I thought you were using the old combo.

A slightly shorter solution:

Start the same way: Gemstone Cavern pitching a random card. (Cards: 5)
Dark Ritual x 4. Skeletal Scrying. (Cards: 4 Mana: Storm: 5)
Draw Elvish Spirit Guide, Harrow, Quicken and Gush.
Remove the ESG and cast Harrow. Fetch two Islands. Tap them for mana. (Cards: 2 Mana: Storm: 6)
Gush, drawing Cabal Ritual and Tendrils of Agony. (Cards: 3 Mana: Storm: 7)
Cabal Ritual, Quicken drawing whatever. (Cards: 2 Mana: Storm: 9)
Cast Tendrils for 20.

[Jacob Orlove]

Ooh, that's a much better solution.

[Anusien]

You can always Quicken Eureka or Flash Ticking Gnomes into play if you need Orrery for your kill.

[parallax]

You can always Quicken Eureka or Flash Ticking Gnomes into play if you need Orrery for your kill.

Only problem is, to achieve the five-six mana those require, you burn through most of your hand and don't have anything left after to abuse with Orrery. By the time you can Quicken Eureka to good effect, you are at the point you can Quicken Tendrils for the win, anyway. Also, I was wondering how you could put Orrery in play prior to Gemstone Caverns as Jacob said, but he already said it required your opponent's cooperation.

Quicken-Tendrils feels so dirty. I think this one is better. It doesn't rely on drawing any cards at random after your opening seven:
Opening Hand: Gemstone Cavern, random card, Dark Ritual, ESG, Crop Rotation, Necromancy, Worldgorger Dragon

Cavern, cast Ritual, remove ESG, Crop Rotation for Bazaar of Baghdad, Necromancy, in response Bazaar.
Start the Dragon loop, dump your library into your graveyard, switch to the Karmic Guide--Kiki-Jiki--Sky Hussar--Thermopod combo.
Generate lots of mana and flashback Flaming Gambit.

It's a longer combo, but it doesn't require knowing any cards beyond your opening hand.

[jro]

Start the Dragon loop, dump your library into your graveyard, switch to the Karmic Guide--Kiki-Jiki--Sky Hussar--Thermopod combo.
Generate lots of mana and flashback Flaming Gambit.

Riftstone Portal seems a better way to make lots of mana for the Flaming Gambit.  You could wash the green mana into double red by using your last Necromancy on Nomadic Elf, Orochi Leafcaller, or (best of all) Tinder Wall.  I think the only card that could kill them at instant speed using unlimited G/W mana would be Ambassador Laquatus, but since they are on the play, they won't die during their draw step. 

Edit: Instead of Flaming Gambit and Tinder Wall, you could animate a Djinn Illuminatus and replicate flashbacked Embolden and Howling Gale for a damage based kill.

Edit2: I think you could run Riftstone Portal / Sun's Bounty and gain an arbitrarily large amount of life while the Dragon loop is running.  Basically, you run the loop 4 times stacking the recover ability below the Dragon leaves play ability.  This nets you 4 mana.  Next time, you put the recover ability on top of the leaves play ability, paying to recover Sun's Bounty and recast it.  Then you go back to stacking it below again.  But then you die with an empty library on your own first turn.

Edit3: Okay: gain lots of life using Sun's Bounty, and then finish the Dragon loop by reanimating Ifh-Biff Efreet and dealing lots of damage.  You can use this same combo to kill on your own turn 1 if you're on the draw, play the Caverns turn 0, then turn 1 play Bazaar, use Bazaar to pitch Dragon, then play a non-land mana source and animate the Dragon.  Turn 0 Entomb Dragon or turn 0 Crop Rotation for Bazaar also seems totally insane.  I think this deck might almost be playable, or at least deserve some attention as a sideboard for when you are on the draw.

[parallax]

How did I forget Riftstone Portal? I love the Portal for reasons like these.

Cavern, cast Ritual, remove ESG, Crop Rotation for Bazaar of Baghdad, Necromancy, in response Bazaar.
Start the Dragon loop and dump your library (including Riftstone Portal, Tinder Wall, and Flaming Gambit) into your graveyard.
Continue the Dragon loop, generating mana from the Riftstone Portal-enabled Bazaar of Baghdad.
Necromancy the Tinder Wall, sacrifice it and cast Flaming Gambit.

Of course there are numerous ways to kill with Dragon and Riftstone Portal, but I think this is the simplest.

Also, I would play this deck just for the one-in-a-million chance of being able to say "I once won a game of Magic before I even got a turn." Are there any ways to tweak this combo to fit in a halfway-decent Dragon build? Flaming Gambit seems like a horrible kill for Dragon any time after turn 0.

Actually, the chances are much better than one in a million. The chances of opening this hand are: 165150720 / 1946482876800 or about 1 in 11786.

[Godder]

Would it be possible to Quicken -> Eureka, dropping Pandeburst?

[Billy Bones]

Would it be possible to Quicken -> Eureka, dropping Pandeburst?

Well, you'd need gemstone cavern, card to rfg, and quicken plus two more cards for pandeburst and another for eureka.  Is there one card that plays for free, as an instant, and gives you four green?  edit: you get two cards, one as the draw from quicken

[forests failed you]

Gemstone Cavern, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Entomb (putting Worldgorger Dragon in your graveyard), Necromancy for infinite mana. You still have two one card in your hand to win with infinite mana.

Ghithu Fire!!!!!!!!!!

[jro]

Gemstone Cavern, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Entomb (putting Worldgorger Dragon in your graveyard), Necromancy for infinite mana. You still have two one card in your hand to win with infinite mana.

Ghithu Fire!!!!!!!!!!

That doesn't work, because the Caverns will only make colorless after it comes back into play during the Dragon loop.

[parallax]

Gemstone Cavern, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Entomb (putting Worldgorger Dragon in your graveyard), Necromancy for infinite mana. You still have two one card in your hand to win with infinite mana.

Ghithu Fire!!!!!!!!!!

That doesn't work, because the Caverns will only make colorless after it comes back into play during the Dragon loop.

Yes. I forgot to mention that this infinite mana comes as . Where X is colorless but as large as you want.

[andrewpate]

The closest thing I can come up with is casting Skeletal Scrying into Elvish Spirit Guide and Caller of the Claw.  That will give you infinite 2/2s with which to kill as soon as you untap.  That's not really "turn 0," though.

[parallax]

I think Crop Rotation into Bazaar of Baghdad works just fine. You only need to see these cards in your opening hand: Gemstone Caverns, Dark Ritual, Elvish Spirit Guide, Crop Rotation, Necromancy and Worldgorger Dragon and any other card to pitch to Caverns. Alternately, the WGD could be in the top two cards of your library as well.

[freakish777]

Also, I would play this deck just for the one-in-a-million chance of being able to say "I once won a game of Magic before I even got a turn."

No no, you would play the deck to be able to say "I once responded to my opponents turn 1 Lethal Tendrils when he won the die roll."

In terms of "replacing" Flaming Gambit, Flash of Insight might be worth consideration???  That's a little tough though.  Its too bad Limestone Golem has sacrifice in his cost as opposed to "Destroy Limestone Golem" in the effect.

[kombat]

I've got one that works:

Opening hand: Gemstone Caverns, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Necromancy, Quicken, Entomb, Random Card.

You lost the die roll, so you start with Gemstone Caverns in play, removing Random Card from the game.
Your opponent starts.  On his upkeep, you declare that you have fast effects.
Tap Gemstone Caverns for B.
Cast Dark Ritual #1 (Storm: 1, Pool: BBB)
Cast Dark Ritual #2 (Storm: 2, Pool: BBBBB)
Cast Entomb, finding Worldgorger Dragon and putting it in your graveyard (Storm: 3, Pool: BBBB)
Cast Necromancy, targetting Worldgorger Dragon, generate infinite B and U mana (Storm: 4)
Cast Quicken (Storm: 5)
Draw Yawgmoth's Will off Quicken
Play Yawgmoth's Will (Storm: 6)
Replay Dark Ritual #1 (Storm: 7)
Replay Dark Ritual #2 (Storm: 8)
Replay Quicken (Storm: 9)
Draw Tendrils of Agony off Quicken
Play Tendrils of Agony for 20.

Of course, all that is extremely unlikely, but it's not entirely unflexible.  The Quicken in your hand could be alternatively be any draw spell, as long as that draw spell finds you Quicken or a couple tutors, because by that time, you've already got all the mana you need.  It just has to be instant speed, because you need to do this in the middle of the Dragon loop (not to mention, during your opponent's first upkeep).

[Mr. Nightmare]

kombat, your win doesn't actually work.  Once Gemstone Caverns is RFG with WGD, it comes back into play without the counter on it, and as such, can only tap for colorless mana.  You need to find an instant speed win condition that costs XB.

[kombat]

kombat, your win doesn't actually work.  Once Gemstone Caverns is RFG with WGD, it comes back into play without the counter on it

Uhm, are you sure about that?  I'm looking at the image at the top of this thread, and it doesn't say anything about "removing" the luck counter.  My understanding is that if you lose the die roll, then Gemstone Caverns gives you any color mana you need, for the entire game, not just the first time you use it. Am I missing something?

EDIT: Oh, I see what you're saying.  Permanents that are RFG and then returned come back without any counters they may have had on them (such as Bloodthirst, Pentavites, whatever).  My apologies, I'd forgotten about that interaction.

[parallax]

Umm... besides, we already have a kill that works. Can anyone find a kill that's more efficient? The current kill requires all seven cards in your opening hand (although the seventh can be anything to pitch to Caverns).

[freakish777]

How is there not a creature version of Rocket Launcher in the game??