Oath: Impulse or Thirst For Knowledge?

[ramon]

Which one do you prefer?

Now I'm using Impulse, but I see many decks with tfk, oath has enough artifacts to play this card?

Do you think one SSS in the main deck is a good idea? (with akroma and razia in the main deck too)

In a second match, against which decks do you play the SSS?, and when you play them, do you change them for one of the angels?

[Tha Gunslinga]

Impulse in aggro Oath, Thirst in control Oath.

SSS is too slow; I wouldn't bother maindecking it unless your meta is extremely full of UW Fish, and if it is, you shouldn't be playing Oath anyway.  I always bring in the Simics over the Angels when I know or suspect either Gilded Drake, StP, bounce, Duplicant, Maze, or any targeted removal.  I often just bring them in for the hell of it.  They're good in the mirror too, since you can hardcast SSS much easier than an Angel.

[ramon]

and why not three creatures in the main deck? akroma, razia and spirit of the night

If you draw one of the three, you can play brainsorm and a fetch land to return the creature to the deck, but sometimes is hard to do it

[Dr. Teeth]

You just don't ever want a creature in your hand. Playing 3 just increases the chances of drawing one.

[ramon]

You just don't ever want a creature in your hand. Playing 3 just increases the chances of drawing one.

It's true, but if you draw one you have two more creatures to play with them. With only two creatures, if you draw one (and it happens quite often) you only have one more in your deck.

[Dr. Teeth]

And the problem with that is...? That's why you have to save those brainstorms .

When you add another creature, you are adding a potentially dead card (because 2 hasty 6/something fliyiers are enough), and you have to cut something that could search and protect your 'combo' or disrupt your opponent. Those are all much harder needed than an extra creature for the odd just-in-case.

IF you want access te more creatures, run research//development.

[Harlequin]

Imuplse is generally better than Thirst, Unless you have alot of "spare" artifacts in the main (4 chalice, Pithing needle, etc).  Or unless your running DSC.



For a brief time I ran:
1 Razi
1 Akroma
2 Research

Sideboard
2 SSS
1 Ancient Hydra
1 Pristeen Angel

I played the deck in a metagame where if you weren't up against extract ... you had to face jester's cap.  So thats why I have so many creatures in the board.  Lots of fishy style aggro too.  (Admitily not the right time to play oath).  But here is how I would break down my creatures for each matchup

W/U fish (they board in extracts)
2 SSS
1 Pristeen Angel
1 Research

Welders (boarding in Dupes or Jesters)
1 Hydra
2 SSS
1-2 Research

Combo/Gifts
1 Razia
1 Akroma
0-1 Research (if I felt like they might have extracts)

[chrissss]

TFK fTW.

thirst just gives you card advantage, which is very important. if you draw a creature, you can discard it, and let the blessing do its work.

If you play callice, then the moxen you cant put into play discard very nicely to TFK.

[Dr. Teeth]

When using mana drain I would without a doubt choose TFK over impulse. But when playing the more agressive oath, I would choose impulse because a) it's cheaper and b) it digs one card deeper.

[Kevin Folinus]

Aggro Oath is better than control because it presents the player with a straight foward game plan and has a better percent of match ups then the control build (Do CS metagames even exist?). It is a two card combo deck that needs to win in the first few turns. This means that impulse is a better card for the deck because it digs one card deeper and the favorable mana cost enables it being cast in addition to the spell it digs for. It also does not require that you play addition bad artifacts for fuel. The greatest misplay with the deck is not mulliganing agressively, the mulligan is a resource that this deck must use until it finds hands with atleast one of the combo pieces and the means to find the next. Impulse supplies this means. Many many games you will start with five cards and still be in a fine position to win.

[zulander]

When using mana drain I would without a doubt choose TFK over impulse. But when playing the more aggressive oath, I would choose impulse because a) it's cheaper and b) it digs one card deeper.

Exactly. In aggro oath it isn't about card advantage, it's about card quality. Impulse lets you find the card you need rather than letting you keep an extra card you might not need.

[sa17dk]

Even without Mana Drain I would still run Thirst in a control Oath build.

I hate drains in Oath. I'd much rather run Leaks instead.

[wethepeople]

Drains do well in the right Oath builds, it gets you mana for Intuition and TFK, which IMO should be used over Impulse.

//wtp.

[sa17dk]

Inuition is eh in Oath. As a tutor, it's too expensive for a deck that wants to be able to cast Oath/draw/tutors on turns 1 & 2. Otherwise, youre relying too much on drain.


Gifts Oath on the other hand is a different story...

[brianpk80]

Inuition is eh in Oath. As a tutor, it's too expensive for a deck that wants to be able to cast Oath/draw/tutors on turns 1 & 2. Otherwise, youre relying too much on drain.


Gifts Oath on the other hand is a different story...

I'd have to disagree.  Intuition is indispensible in a deck that needs an instance each of 2 different four-of's in the deck to function.  Oath's goal isn't to draw cards and to tutor; those are simply means to an end.  You're usually in a better position to protect the Oath by getting it at EoT with an Intuition (since almost nobody counters it) than a card disadvantage tutor (one of which requires you to fetch for an Underground or expose an Orchard, and risk imminent death next turn with Storm at 7 and a few hits from a Spirit token).  Plus, when the purpose of your draw spell (ie Thirst for Knowledge) is to find something specific rather than to simply build raw card advantage, you're better off just outright tutoring for it, and that is exactly what Intuition does.  Intuition does several things that a basic draw spell could never accomplish.  It wrecks the Oath mirror when you go for Orchard, Strip, and Life from the Loam.  It fills up the graveyard with anything you want if you're going for Will.  And you can tweak your build to make it an instant tutor for any singleton in the deck, by casting Intuition for Regrowth, Yawgmoth's, and X.  Hold it in hand v. combo and Intuition for 3 FoW's if it's the only way to save yourself (I have done this more than once).  Get 3 Brainstorms when the critters are clogging up your hand.  It goes a lot farther in Oath than casting Thirst for Knowledge or Impulse and just rolling the dice.     

While it's nice to think that Oath should be casting Oath of Druids turn 1 or 2 every single game, that simply isn't the case in Magic.  A more realistic scenario would be, Turn 1:  Fetch + Mox, pass and maybe FoW something, Turn 2: Play land, pass -> EoT Intuition, Turn 3: Orchard/Oath.

-BPK

[L_O_L]

Impulse is insane and indispensable in Oath, simply because Oath doesn't want to draw cards rather than see a lot of cards and pick the right ones.  You don't want to draw your fatties and you don't want to draw Gaea's Blessing.  Yes, Brainstorm helps here, but in the end it's only a 4-of just like the next one and you won't see it every game (unless you're tutoring for them, but from where I'm standing it seems those generally have better uses.  Oath of Druids comes to mind).

@ brianpk80 : Are you seriously considering to Intuition for three Brainstorms ?  I would love to see my opponent make this play, if only for the sheer card disadvantage and the wasted opportunity of a broken play.
Intuition for three Oath of Druids ?  Mediocre at best when compared to what other tutors do.  Doesn't sound like a foolproof plan to me, especially after boarding when a single Seal of Cleansing suddenly has you with three Oaths in your graveyard.

@ Bad Wolf : Yes TfK provides card advantage, given that you have an Artifact in your hand that you want to get rid of.  You say you discard the creatures when they're in your hand, but then the card advantage is gone.  You say let Blessing do the work, but when both your beaters are in the graveyard that's a turn gone to waste.  Of course this has its uses, but your deck should be able to work around situations like these.

In my opinion, there is no viable substitute for Impulse.  It digs four cards deep, works well with Brainstorm (4 additional "shuffle" effects), and gets you the right cards in hand.  In short, it fits Oath's gameplan perfectly whereas TfK doesn't.

[Disburden]

I have been following this discussion briefly off and on about Thirst for Knowledge in Oath. What I would like to say, is even with enough artifacts in the deck, TFK just seems suboptimal. I know ICBM Oath runs Thirst, and that build has done pretty well in certain tournaments, but I feel that it's because of how the deck locks down the opponent, not because of the draw engine. What I liked about Impulse was already said in the forum, I won't repeat that and beat a dead horse.

 Thirst for knowledge, imo, is only good in Control Slaver. The deck abuses that card drawing spell better than any other deck we have (right now anyway). I never supported Thirst in other decks, even in Gifts decks. I feel if you play Welders and artifacts with mana drains then Thirst can be great. Otherwise you're trying to do something with a card (Get card advantage) that the card just doesn't do well. You have to discard moxen (Which can never be good, ever) in Gifts, or in Oath you have to discard Chalices and Null Rods. Those spells are supposed to be important, right? So what are you discarding them to Thirst? Because it's either that or discard two spells and lose your hand. That just seems downright horrible. I tested Flame Vault gifts back when it was alive and I never believed in it's engine. It ran Pithing Needles, JUST to help discard to thirst. What's the point? Sometimes you have to discard your mana accelerants, even though you're supposed to have enough mana to gifts.

I agree with Randy Buehler when he says he never was that impressed with Thirst for Knowledge in Vintage. Slaver right now is the only deck I like with Thirst.

[brianpk80]

@ brianpk80 : Are you seriously considering to Intuition for three Brainstorms ?  I would love to see my opponent make this play, if only for the sheer card disadvantage and the wasted opportunity of a broken play.
Intuition for three Oath of Druids ?  Mediocre at best when compared to what other tutors do.  Doesn't sound like a foolproof plan to me, especially after boarding when a single Seal of Cleansing suddenly has you with three Oaths in your graveyard.

I think you clearly misunderstood what I was saying.  My point was that Intuition's versatility and instant tutor effect makes it superior in Oath to any raw draw spell.  Intuition for Brainstorm is obviously not the play of choice but you're overlooking the fact that there will be times when it must be done.  If you can't think of a single situation of when and why you would Intuition for Brainstorm then you probably don't have much experience playing Oath.  I'll help you out.  You're playing Stax which runs no counters.  It is post sideboard.  There is an Oath, an Orchard, a Spirit token, and a Smokestack on the table.  You have been Capped and have no creatures left in your deck, but one in hand.  End of turn, Intuition for Brainstorm, put the creature back on top of the library, Oath it up and win.  If you think this never happens, then you might want to do some testing of the Oath v. Stax match. 

And Intuition for Oath of Druids is a great early play most of the time.  If your opponent is playing anything other than blue, it should win you the game.  If they are playing blue and you have a FoW or Drain/Leak/Duress in hand, you might as well go for it.  If it's countered or destroyed, well, that shouldn't be too much of a problem for an archetype well known to pack multiple tutors, Gaea's Blessing, Yawgmoth's Will, and occasionally Regrowth and Krosan Reclamation.  But if you would prefer to Vampiric Tutor for the Oath, skip your next draw, lose 2 life, and risk having an Underground or Orchard wasted, well, so be it.  Or did you mean Impulse?  A Dark Confidant is staring you down and at EoT, you look at the Top 4 cards of your library: oh darn, it's an Orchard, a Mox, Gaea's Blessing, and a Null Rod.  You might as well concede.  It's a shame you couldn't Intuition for Strip Mine, Life from the Loam, and Darkblast.   

-BPK

[Tha Gunslinga]

When you're playing control Oath, such as ICBM Oath, it's usually better to draw 3 cards, even if you have to discard one (which is generally a useless artifact) than to look at 4 but only keep one.  Impulse is better in quick games, and Thirst is better in slow games.

[L_O_L]

I think you clearly misunderstood what I was saying.  My point was that Intuition's versatility and instant tutor effect makes it superior in Oath to any raw draw spell.  Intuition for Brainstorm is obviously not the play of choice but you're overlooking the fact that there will be times when it must be done.  If you can't think of a single situation of when and why you would Intuition for Brainstorm then you probably don't have much experience playing Oath.  I'll help you out.  You're playing Stax which runs no counters.  It is post sideboard.  There is an Oath, an Orchard, a Spirit token, and a Smokestack on the table.  You have been Capped and have no creatures left in your deck, but one in hand.  End of turn, Intuition for Brainstorm, put the creature back on top of the library, Oath it up and win.  If you think this never happens, then you might want to do some testing of the Oath v. Stax match. 

And Intuition for Oath of Druids is a great early play most of the time.  If your opponent is playing anything other than blue, it should win you the game.  If they are playing blue and you have a FoW or Drain/Leak/Duress in hand, you might as well go for it.  If it's countered or destroyed, well, that shouldn't be too much of a problem for an archetype well known to pack multiple tutors, Gaea's Blessing, Yawgmoth's Will, and occasionally Regrowth and Krosan Reclamation.  But if you would prefer to Vampiric Tutor for the Oath, skip your next draw, lose 2 life, and risk having an Underground or Orchard wasted, well, so be it.  Or did you mean Impulse?  A Dark Confidant is staring you down and at EoT, you look at the Top 4 cards of your library: oh darn, it's an Orchard, a Mox, Gaea's Blessing, and a Null Rod.  You might as well concede.  It's a shame you couldn't Intuition for Strip Mine, Life from the Loam, and Darkblast.

I'd like to point out a few things here, mostly that your point was actually very clear to me.  We seem to be on the same level about the goal of Oath : it needs "an instance each of 2 different four-of's in the deck to function".  I already said earlier that you don't "want to draw cards rather than see a lot of cards and pick the right ones".  This means we agree on the fact that raw draw spells aren't the way to go.  I never questioned the inclusion of Intuition in Oath, I only pointed out after reading your post that Intuition for three Brainstorms isn't the gamebreaking play most of the time.  To suggest that I wouldn't be able to think of a single situation where this play could save you is a bit out of place here, let alone the fact that you would judge me on my experience with Oath when you don't know the first thing about that.  I think any competent player would agree with me that this is generally an inferior play to what you should be doing. 

I also think your earlier representation of the Impulse vs. Intuition situation is very black/white, where all the bad things happen to the player playing Impulse but the Intuition player has all the answers and none of the bad luck.  Of course you can create a situation in a snap where your idea looks better.  I can also advocate playing Shock in Oath to get through those last 2 points of life, and that would sound pretty ridiculous and perhaps even offending to you because it would seem like I were questioning your ability to pilot the deck (which I don't).

You make it sound like it's impossible to run Impulse in addition to Intuition in the same deck (because you compared them), which seems perfectly doable to me.  Impulse is what I call a 'soft tutor', and believe me when I tell you I've never experienced difficulties to find Oath after Impulse resolves.

Also, are you questioning Vampiric Tutor in Oath ?  Because if I can tell you one thing, it's a million times better than Intuition.
"If you would prefer to Vampiric Tutor for the Oath, skip your next draw, lose 2 life, and risk having an Underground or Orchard wasted, well, so be it."  That's awkward, it suddenly seems like I've been winning all those games the wrong way then.  Can you explain to me how VT for Oath is a bad play ?  You talk about "skipping your next draw" when really it's not about card advantage in Oath (I thought we had that covered by now).

In any case I think it should be noted that this discussion wasn't meant to be about Intuition, it should be about Impulse and Thirst for Knowledge.  If you wish to continue this particular debate, let's not deviate from the essence of this thread and instead further talk about this somewhere else.

[ramon]

I'm trying the Muddle the Mixture in the ICBM Oath and it works very well, you have a conunter or a tutor in your hand, I think it works beter than the tfk. Now I'm playing with three creatures (the angels and spirit of the night) and two Muddle the mixture,  without tfk or impulse and the deck works better (it's more dificult to have a bad hand).

[dicemanx]

Otherwise you're trying to do something with a card (Get card advantage) that the card just doesn't do well. You have to discard moxen (Which can never be good, ever) in Gifts, or in Oath you have to discard Chalices and Null Rods. Those spells are supposed to be important, right? So what are you discarding them to Thirst? Because it's either that or discard two spells and lose your hand. That just seems downright horrible. I tested Flame Vault gifts back when it was alive and I never believed in it's engine. It ran Pithing Needles, JUST to help discard to thirst.

To me, playing MDG is like putting the cart before the horse - you want to develop your mana first and *then* generate card advantage; unfortunately, too often if you want to even reach 4 mana you need to do some card drawing first. MDG might be strong enough that it too can win a major event, but this take on the Gifts archetype still has a *long* way to go before asseting itself as the superior Gifts build.

The idea that you don't want to discard Moxes to TfK (or Chalice/Null Rod) is an often propagated piece of misanalysis; you cannot condemn discarding what you wouldn't be drawing in the first place. I'm sure you'll also admit that your claim that if you're not discarding an artifact you're "los[ing] your hand" is a savage exaggeration. At worst the TfK is serving as a filter spell, a slightly weaker impulse that is played precisely because it has the ability to generate card advantage more than half the time. TfK has an added bonus in Oath and Gifts builds - it can serve to get rid of your creatures in hand which would otherwise have to wait for a Brainstorm (and a means of shuffling).

In other words, TfK gets undeserved criticism. Every draw engine in T1 has drawbacks, and we can easily construct scenarios highlighting their deficiencies. The question is whether they do more good than harm.

One last point: your claim that Gifts ran Needle JUST to help discard to thirst likewise betrays a weakened understanding of the BMG/GiftsX archetype. Needle was quite a powerful addition to combat Welder based strategies and decks that focused on mana denial, and assisted in the protection of Underground Seas allowing for Duress-heavy builds to be played. It also was good at nailing certain fringe combo decks like WGD and Belcher. The fact that it added to the artifact count to make TfK stronger was a nice synergistic bonus.

[kirdape3]

Meandeck Gifts just won Gencon c_C.

[dicemanx]

Meandeck Gifts just won Gencon c_C.

MDG might be strong enough that it too can win a major event, but this take on the Gifts archetype still has a *long* way to go before asseting itself as the superior Gifts build.

[Machinus]

explanation of why thirst is good

I absolutely agree.

[brianpk80]

I'd like to point out a few things here, mostly that your point was actually very clear to me.  We seem to be on the same level about the goal of Oath : it needs "an instance each of 2 different four-of's in the deck to function".  I already said earlier that you don't "want to draw cards rather than see a lot of cards and pick the right ones".  This means we agree on the fact that raw draw spells aren't the way to go.  I never questioned the inclusion of Intuition in Oath, I only pointed out after reading your post that Intuition for three Brainstorms isn't the gamebreaking play most of the time.  To suggest that I wouldn't be able to think of a single situation where this play could save you is a bit out of place here, let alone the fact that you would judge me on my experience with Oath when you don't know the first thing about that.  I think any competent player would agree with me that this is generally an inferior play to what you should be doing. 

Forgive the delayed response as once again I was out of town for several days. 
Now, this is a much better response than what you had originally posted.  Compare this respectful discourse to:

@ brianpk80 : Are you seriously considering to Intuition for three Brainstorms ?  I would love to see my opponent make this play, if only for the sheer card disadvantage and the wasted opportunity of a broken play.
Intuition for three Oath of Druids ?  Mediocre at best when compared to what other tutors do.  Doesn't sound like a foolproof plan to me, especially after boarding when a single Seal of Cleansing suddenly has you with three Oaths in your graveyard.

The misunderstanding seems to lie in the fact that I brought up Intution for Brainstorms only as an example of its flexibility and by no means was suggesting that performing that play was generally optimal.  Rather, I was saying that the fact that Intuition allows you to execute that move in certain limited circumstances where it is the correct play further strengthens the case for its inclusion in Oath on the basis of its versatility.  I don't think I need to stress that there have been a handful of games where Brainstorm was critical to the win because it now appears that you clearly understand what I'm saying.  As you said, we are, by and large, on the same page.  Your initial reply took my words out of context and mutilated them to make it appear I was suggesting something ludicrous.  If you found my response to you to be a bit condescending then we can move past that; I am sure you realize I was simply replying in kind.  As for the other things...

I also think your earlier representation of the Impulse vs. Intuition situation is very black/white, where all the bad things happen to the player playing Impulse but the Intuition player has all the answers and none of the bad luck.  Of course you can create a situation in a snap where your idea looks better.  I can also advocate playing Shock in Oath to get through those last 2 points of life, and that would sound pretty ridiculous and perhaps even offending to you because it would seem like I were questioning your ability to pilot the deck (which I don't).

Yes, you are correct here.  My examples were worst case scenarios for Impulse and arguably "best" case for Intuition.  But the difference between the two is that Intuition is a specfic Tutor that brings out whatever you decide while Impulse is a gamble.  When you Intuition for three copies of the same card, once it resolves, there is no luck factor that determines what ends up in your hand, unlike what happens with Impulse.  I agree that Impulse is often immensely helpful in finding the Oath, but when I ran Impulse there were numerous occasions where it fizzled.  It's difficult to estimate it with any precise degree, but between 25% and 30% of the time, its search was fruitless.  Because finding the Oath is usually of paramount importance for the player, I find Intuition much more effective at getting the job done than any card that requires a roll of the dice.     

You make it sound like it's impossible to run Impulse in addition to Intuition in the same deck (because you compared them), which seems perfectly doable to me.  Impulse is what I call a 'soft tutor', and believe me when I tell you I've never experienced difficulties to find Oath after Impulse resolves.

Well, I'm glad to know you've never had an Impulse fumble but I think most Oath players can definitely attest to several instances to the contrary.   

Also, are you questioning Vampiric Tutor in Oath ?  Because if I can tell you one thing, it's a million times better than Intuition.
"If you would prefer to Vampiric Tutor for the Oath, skip your next draw, lose 2 life, and risk having an Underground or Orchard wasted, well, so be it."  That's awkward, it suddenly seems like I've been winning all those games the wrong way then.  Can you explain to me how VT for Oath is a bad play ?  You talk about "skipping your next draw" when really it's not about card advantage in Oath (I thought we had that covered by now).

I run Vampiric in Oath, no doubt.  It's a fantastic tutor that will get the Oath/Orchard if you want it but there are enough distinctions between Vampiric and Intuition as components of the deck that I wouldn't say Vampiric is strictly superior to Intuition.  Some examples: Island + Sol Ring but no Orchard or Fetch, Intuition for Strip Mine, Life from the Loam, and Forbidden Orchard/Tolarian Academy (Tyrant Oath), Chalice @ 1, Really low on Life, A lot of mana on the table and topdecking Vampiric when you'd rather just Intuition and do it now, Opponent Has a Creature and you have no Orchard, but cracking the fetch for Underground would mean no Green available next turn to cast the Oath.  None of these instances are particularly rare or fanciful so I would have to conclude that Intuition has enough going for it that it's at least very close to on par with Vampiric Tutor.  And at any rate, the comparison is moot because I am not considering cutting either.   

In any case I think it should be noted that this discussion wasn't meant to be about Intuition, it should be about Impulse and Thirst for Knowledge.  If you wish to continue this particular debate, let's not deviate from the essence of this thread and instead further talk about this somewhere else.

Hmmm, I would offer that if a thread branches off into a very closely related and important topic, then there is no compelling need to squelch the discourse. 

-BPK