UW fish

[mongrel12]

I've been testing UW fish for a while in the current metagame, and have had very postive results. Here is my latest list, with explanation (based off Feinstein's lists from a while back):


// Lands
    4  Flooded Strand
    2  Windswept Heath
    2  Island
    2  Plains
    4  Wasteland
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Tundra

// Creatures
    3  Savannah Lions
    4  Meddling Mage
    3  Kataki, War's Wage
    3  Jotun Grunt
    3  Isamaru, Hound of Konda
    2  Ninja of the Deep Hours

// Spells
    4  Brainstorm
    4  Force of Will
    4  Stifle
    3  Swords to Plowshares
    3  Null Rod
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Black Lotus
    1  Time Walk
    1  Ancestral Recall
    1  Mox Sapphire

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3  Orim's Chant
SB: 3  Energy Flux

Explanation:
THe 3/3 Lions Isamaru split: I prefer creatures that don't get pwnd by Darkblast, hence the 3 Isamaru

2 Ninja: I originally ran 4/4 Lion/Isamaru, however, I found that I lacked a ton of midgame card boost, the 2 Ninja's have been working out for me in testing (due to the 6 one-drops).

3 Kataki: Ridiculously solid against shops, has tremendous synergy with Null Rod.

3 Grunt: Grunt is ridiculous. Enough said. I don't run 4 because I rarely find myself wanting to see more than one per game.

Null Rod: One of the more dubious calls, I currently like Rod more than Chalice in this build, because a) I don't run Vial, b) Kataki+Rod=ridiculous.

4 Stifle: Stifle is absolutely nuts in the current metagame against anything running fetchlands, as well as shops.

SB: I havn't deviated from Feinsteins SB, as it has been working out pretty well for me.

The real points of contention in this deck are a) should UW fish run Vial/Chalice? b) Is this even the optimal fish list (in view of the gencon results), given that it doesn't run Dark Confidant?

It's spelled 'ridiculous' from the root 'ridicule' as in what I will do to you if you continue to spell this wrong.  Also, moved to Vintage Improvement given this is only barely more than just a decklist.
-Kowal[/color]

[Sextiger]

I really don't think lions and Isamaru should be played in fish. Yes, they can be nice little beaters but they have no utility and they are terrible topdecks.  All they do is slowly reduce your opponents life totals while cards like Meddling mage, Voidmage or Dark Confidant beat down AND have nice abilities.

[Twaun007]

I totally agree with Sextiger on this one. My buddy has been playing B/W fish for a while and he has found out that creatures that do nothing don't help win games. Fish is all about small annoying threats that do stuff and all the threats combined add up to winning the game. In my opinion a 2/2 beater just makes me have to win the game in 9 turnes which isn't that bad. Meddling Mage should be an auto include in this deck since it is one of the most annoying creatures ever.
In Fish abilities equal sweetness.

[never]

I've been wondering about True Believer lately. Isn't it about time he sees play, at least in the sideboard, and probably in the maindeck. especially when Gifts and Tendrils decks are starting to be some of the most popular decks out there.

There aren't too many matches where he is useless except maybe the mirror, and if you're really afraid of that he could be swapped for something else from the side, whether it be something like jitte or sword, or maybe another creature like eight and a half tails?

[Liek]

True Believer is really only good with Aether Vial.

The goal is to out him into play while thier spells that target you are on the stack. If you cast True Believer, he'll die to Massacre like all of the other 2/2s will.

[desolutionist]

I really don't think lions and Isamaru should be played in fish. Yes, they can be nice little beaters but they have no utility and they are terrible topdecks.  All they do is slowly reduce your opponents life totals while cards like Meddling mage, Voidmage or Dark Confidant beat down AND have nice abilities.

Fish wants to end the game before Null Rod is void; every card in Fish is a terrible topdeck.  The idea is to win before it becomes relevant.

Stormscape, Voidmage, etc. are questionable because they don't shorten the game clock, giving the opponent more opportunities to outplay your answers.

[Raakam]

True Believer is really only good with Aether Vial.

The goal is to out him into play while thier spells that target you are on the stack. If you cast True Believer, he'll die to Massacre like all of the other 2/2s will.

True Believer, much like Meddling Mage, is a must answer threat. If he's in the main deck, as he is very rarely a dead card, then game 1 against combo I don't see how they're going to massacre it, since most combo decks run it in the board; I'm assuming we're mostly talking about Long here. Even in game 2/3, resolving a True Believer leads the opposing player down a very narrow path that must either lead to Massacre or Chain of Vapor. Anytime you limit your opponent to a very limited amount of outs, you're doing something extremely valuable. Here, I'm going to quote Jdizzle to help clarify this and illustrate my point:

"Disagree.  Mage on Tendrils is a MUST answer.  Anything else is an inconvenience and can be won around.  Mage on Tendrils must be dealt with, which is what you want to force Long to do--deal with things in play.  It's not that good at it if the cards aren't artifacts."

Feel free to replace the term "mage on tendrils" with True Believer. They cannot win unless they get rid of it, and for that simple fact alone, he is not just "really good with aether vial". Combine True Believer with Meddling Mage on Chain of Vapor/Massacre/Tendril's, and you suddenly have a situation in which Long is in a lot of trouble for game 1, and extremely difficult in games 2 and 3.

Running Aether Vial main with a deck that runs Null Rod is also questionable at best. With U/W Fish, the Null Rods come into play fairly fast, since you want to maximize its utility in many matchups - meaning turn 2 or 3. Assuming I play a Vial on turn 1, at best, I'd be using it twice: once for a 1cc creature and once for a 2cc creature. Maybe putting Vial in the board could possibly help, and sub them out for Nullrod in the mirror match, but I'd honestly rather bring in Jittes.

[mongrel12]

The fact is, preboard, Pitch Long isn't a bad matchup at all, so running True Believer mainboard is basically overkill. In a bunch of matchups (at least with this build), you will want to fetch out your basics ASAP, which means that getting to WW for True Believer may be a challenge. My only issue with Voidmage is that the card as a whole is pretty weak without Vial, due to mana restrictions/the fact that playing him as an instant is ownage.

[ErkBek]

// Sideboard
SB: 3  Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 3  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 3  Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3  Orim's Chant
SB: 3  Energy Flux

So against mana drains to you not sideboard? Or do you bring in BEB's to counter REB's, Clasm, and Rack and Ruin (if they bring them in).

Vs. Stax you bring in the 6 enchantments, what do you cut (lets assume they play 4 welders)?

How tight is the sideboard? Could you run 4 Chalice of the Void to swap out with rods when on the play (or for extra disruption vs. combo)? I really like the chalice sideboard since it comes if after a loss, and it can really help put away the match or send it into game 3. I also think the deck could use a little boost vs. Grim/Pitch Long. Just an idea.

[BreathWeapon]

Has any one tried taking a page from WW in 1.5 and played with MD or SB Glowrider? Between Strip/Waste, Stifle, Kataki and Growrider you could seriously turn your deck into Stax with counters, tho' you may need to play fully powered if you want to race Glowrider under Mana Drain.

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle

4 Glowrider
4 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Voidmage Prodigy
4 Meddling Mage

1 Time Walk
4 Brianstorm
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Trundra
5 Island

Could be a lot of fun to Glowrider your opponent out of the game, and between Wasteland, Stifle, Kataki and Glowrider Daze should be relevant for the course of the game.

[wethepeople]

Glowrider wouldnt help you anymore than it would hurt you. it would require you to leave one mana opened if you ever want to force of will, daze, or stifle something. it costs three, and fish doesnt rely on only creature cards. it probably wont slow your opponent down much anyway. Glowrider is best in a strictly creature deck like White Weenie.

one more thing, add more ninjas, dont bother even using two, you will rarely get it. i say 3 would be good, 4 would work as well with so many turn 1 drops. i suggest dropping a hound for it because it is just a dead draw when you get multiples because of the legend rule. i think UW fish is best with Stormscape Apprentice, you should look for a spot in your MD for him. he is great against aggro matchups, he stops DSC and other massive beasts that you come across, as well as a pitch for force of will and ninja.

[BreathWeapon]

And the problem with that is?

Stax runs Sphere of Resistance despite being completely symmetrical, excluding Workshop, while Glowrider doesn't affect a fourth of your deck. The card definately affects the opponent, Long and Gifts really hurt with a Sphere of Resistance esq deck in play, and with Brainstorm you can easily resolve  a second one against them. Keeping mana open for Force of Will, Daze, Stifel etc doesn't seem to be a significant problem either. I think the card deserves serious consideration as opposed to immediate dismissal.

[wethepeople]

glowrider does have an effect on storm based decks, i know. but it doesnt really do much at all to others. it could be worth a slot in the sideboard but i personally dont think it is worth being main decked.

[Disburden]

glowrider does have an effect on storm based decks, i know. but it doesnt really do much at all to others. it could be worth a slot in the sideboard but i personally dont think it is worth being main decked.

Also to mention in your recent list with GlowRider that you even took out Jotun Grunt. You took out the best creature fish has had like....um, ever.

[BreathWeapon]

Which is in no way relevant to the actual validity of Glowrider, if you prefer Jotun Grunt to Voidmage Prodigy then by all meens play him instead; I go back and forth on the issue myself. I've actually had a fair amount of success with Glowrider, MDGifts and PitchLong really can't deal with all of the disruption to the manabase followed by the Glowrider to seal the deal. You can even cut some of the acceleration for Swords to Plowshares, as long as you keep the Force of Will and Daze to stop Mana Drain you should be able to resolve him with little difficulty.

If you add Jotun Grunt for Voidmage Prodigy, you have a deck that can easily lock your opponent out of the game with all of its mana denial and then take advantage of the window with an extremely fast clock, atleast for Fish.

[wethepeople]

i just tested a game versus Gifts (not Meandeck) using Glowrider. i managed to pwn all their land later drop Glowrider, it didnt do quite as well as i wanted but it had an effect on them for a few turns until they built up their mana base again. Grunty of course finished them.

g-rider (sounds gangster as hell, does it not?) helps against the right decks, but i certainly wouldnt consider it a 4-of. if you were to resolve two of them however, that would do very well.

its up to you though, its your decklist, you decide.

[kras2005]

I have also played some games on MWS. I never really liked fish, it almost never beat me, and it just not had it all. In every fish list were some cards I did not like. Creatures without abilities, cards working against each other, chalice only to play it out on 0 at the first turn, etc, etc. But now with Dark Confidant things are different. I searched for a fish list containing Meddling Mage (good card) and Dark Confidant (good card), and surprisingly I only found 9 decks. Strange, because UWBfish can play these creatures. Well, I found a deck, from David Reitnauer (never heard of before). I began testing this deck. I immediately liked it. It doesn't have stupid cards that do nothing. It worked together, unlike most fishbuilds.

I have also tested SS, and it sucks. It doesn't work together, it plays too less creatures. I believe the only good fishbuild is the deck I presented above. I can't think of anything to change, or any card that I miss. One could change one Stifle to an Swords to Plowshares, if you play in an aggrometa. Mystical can search for answers against creatures then. Kataki is also very good. And the sideboard owns. It has something versus everything.

Kras

[wethepeople]

well one thing you should know about SS is that it isnt intended for an aggro environment, and if you were to navigate it correctly you would still be able to do well. SS is a great deck when piloted correct, never take out stifle, it owns everything. you should probably learn the deck a little more before you totally quit and say it sucks, because it is very good.

U/B/W Fish is basically EBA, i currently play it and its a great deck. very similar to SS except the fact it just uses Mages and StP. Keep in mind that all fish builds are different, all of which are great when played in the right meta, and piloted correctly.

if you play a lot of random aggro i suggest using UW Fish with Grunt and other good sized beaters. My EBA build uses 3 Grunts over Phyrexian Negator, because Negator sucks against aggro. if you want to find a more recent list wait for he upcoming report for the tournament in Boston. the tournament hasnt even taken place yet but the report should be on here soon, and waterbury also had quite a few EBA lists.

//wtp.