Arcane Control [deck]

[wethepeople]

i know this has been done before, but it has always been something i have wanted to create. you all should know what Arcane Laboratory is, and if you dont its right here (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=6015)

i have been trying to think of various ways to get around Lab. Aether Vial came up but it would require me to make more of a fish-like build, i tried it and i didnt like it near to as much. I had always used Mishra's Factory but not until recently did i add Faerie lands, to work as a creature that doesnt waste my turn.

from my testing i learned that each and every counterspell i used worked like a time walk, wasting their turn. a good part is that  my disruption couldnt be countered because that would require my opponent to cast an additional spell. there is a problem of course versus mirror control matchups, they have the ability to do the same on my turn, but i am still able to use my man-lands.

the decklist is very simple, it is either creatures or disruption, very little draw power because it will just waste my turn. i still use brainstorm because i like to drop it E0T if my opponent didnt play anything worth countering. Skeletal Scry is too drop late game and replenish my hand of counter disruption, because this deck has quite a bit of time to build up mana.

anyway, here it is, suggestions and critism is greatly appreciated:

Creatures:
4   Dark Confidant   
2   Phyrexian Negator   
3   Waterfront Bouncer   

Draw/Tutors: 
1   Ancestral Recall   
3   Brainstorm
2   Skeletal Scrying
1   Vampiric Tutor
1   Demonic Tutor
1   Mystical Tutor

Disruption
4   Arcane Laboratory
4   Counterspell (drain has been tested, it kind of sucks)
4   Force of Will
3   Mana Leak (kind of weak late game, probably could be improved)

Removal:
1   Echoing Decay (seems kind stupid, but it works rather well)
1   Darkblast

Accel:
1   Black Lotus   
1   Mox Emerald   
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Ruby   
1   Mox Sapphire   

Mana Base:
3   Faerie Conclave
4   Mishra's Factory
2   Flooded Strand   
2   Island     
4   Polluted Delta   
4   Underground Sea


no sideboard yet.

I know that i use a lot of counters, each one of them gives me an extra turn, as explained above. This deck has several good matchups, besides aggro. Versus gifts my deck already ruins their Storm win condtion, so i try to have an answer to Tinker at all times. They cant Yawgmoth's Will it back because you can only drop one spell a turn, and Recoup has the same effect. Slaver is a little harder because they pack Welders, i run Decay and Darkblast just for them. When Slaver activates they cant ruin me too much because i can only play one spell a turn. Long is just stupid if Lab resolves, all they can do is try and Tinker/DSC.

i am still trying to work on my aggro matchup, bouncers help a bit but most fish decks that run Aether Vial are a bitch to play. SS isnt very hard, but i dont look forward to that matchup. I recently played a random WTG deck on MWS and got wrecked when i didnt find any bouncers, but i dont see many people playing that since Waterbury was so long ago.

again, suggestions/critism appreciated!

//wtp.

[TopSecret]

     Hello!

     I think that your deck could be improved by going either of these directions:

     1) Erayo + Arcane Lab
     2) Counterbalance + Sensei's Divining Top + (Arcane Lab)

     or

     3) A combination of all the above cards, which may very well be overkill.

     Relying solely on playing counters seems like a little bit of a stretch.
It makes it neccessary to have counter protection open every turn,
and a fist full of counters at all times.

     A flipped Erayo with Arcane Lab in play is a very solid lock,
which is a lot easier to maintain than casting a counterspell every turn.
Also, just flipping an Erayo is pretty easy if you build your deck right,
and is good all on its own.

     Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top is good too, and even better with Arcane Lab.
If you want to focus on playing Man - Lands, this might be the way to go...
If you like playing Landstill.dec.

     Good luck!

[wethepeople]

Erayo doesnt work, it is very rare to get both of them out at once. this combo would require you to play Erayo first or not at all, because he cant be flipped with lab out. i dont exactly rely on counters for every turn, i really only use them on things that would come as a threat. i dont need to counter every single card they play because that would be unecessary.

i am still looking to improve my deck, but it isnt the best idea to add more cards that are really necessary, because it is hard enough trying to get Arcane Lab online.

[wethepeople]

one more thing, i still need a sideboard, anyone got any ideas? Blue Elemental Blast seems like an idea because it can get rid of Welders as well as counter other annoying things.

Modifications:

-2 conclaves (dont really help)
-1 bouncer (dont help a ton)

+1 Negator (works very well)
+1 Island

SB:
1 Negator (for decks using few creatures)
2 Bouncers
2 Darkblast (to get rid of Welders)
3-4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Diabolic Edict
4 -open-

[netherspirit]

Why no Time Walk? I'll admit that late game it may not do much other than thin your deck by one card, but early game it could probably give you enough time to develop your mana base a little more, making it easier to drop the lab.

And I seriously think Mana Drain could probably be worth trying again, I just don't see why you wouldn't want to run it, it'll allow you to get Arcane Lab and your creatures in quicker. Even if you have nothing to cast from the mana you still at least can pump it into your Mishra's Factorys. Maybe replace Mana Leak with it?

[GUnit]

The deck idea is interesting, but I really don't see the justification for running only 3 brainstorms. The card is insane. Far too good not to run four of in any blue deck with fetchlands.

[wethepeople]

apparently i run 4 brainstorms in MWS. i mess up my lists all the time.

@netherspirit- time walk did almost nothing at all, yeah it gives me another land but it also requires another proxy slot that i dont have, i already run moxes. Lab makes it online turn 2 almost every time, i have been able to lotus it out with some other things turn 1.

Mana Drain really doesnt help, i run Skeletal Scrying but only once did i get the two at once. i burn 1-2 mana every time and i am forced to play something stupid with the mana, like a second Arcane Lab.

i tested the Tinker/DSC kill in this deck (still using 2 negators) and it worked out rather well. my idea was not to drop it as fast as i could, but after i knew my opponent hand has been depleted of counters, i have even though about running Duress for this situation, but that seems against the deck's idea.

and this really is an interesting deck, not too many people know exactly what to do when playing it. just how i like itt 

[Raakam]

3   Mana Leak (kind of weak late game, probably could be improved)

If you want to maintain that slot as a counterspell, you could always try Rune Snag - not quite as efficient at first, but becomes stronger late game than Mana Leak is.

Otherwise, I'd make those 3 Mana Leaks one of 3 cards: Duress, Cabal Therapy or Stifle.

[TopSecret]

     If you are looking for more awesome counters,
   perhaps Remand or Memory Lapse?
Also, I remember that Arcane Lab decks used to have Forbid.
Perhaps it would be a good 1-2 'of?

     Bouncers seem sort of slow, and sorcery speed-ish.
Maybe you could use Repeal, Seal of Removing, Echoing Truth, or Rushing River instead.

     Energy Flux may be good in the sideboard, too.

     If you are looking for more creatures, Dimir Cutpurse is pretty good with Arcane Lab.
Maybe you could add 1-2 Psychatog if your game against random aggro needs improving.

     Good luck!

[wethepeople]

Dimir Cutpurse was an idea for the sideboard believe it or not, i only use it against aggro decks but it will probably be replaced by Jitte. i run a negator in my sb as well for decks using very few creatures like Gifts, Slaver, and Long for a fast clock. i tested with them maindeck and they didnt work very well, i like using very few creatures. Aether Vial and welder are my two problems, i need to figure that one out. Tog never even came to my mind, i dont really know what he can do besides to scare my opponent out of attacking. am i the only person who thinks about using Fog Bank?? (http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=7736)

i just learned that the deck has an outstanding Bomberman matchup, even if that is very uncommon.

[wethepeople]

Forbid isnt bad, it just has too hefty of a buyback cost, it would deplete my entire hand until i eventually ran out, unless of course i have out a dark confidant. so that might just work. anyone have a say on that?

fact or fiction works great in this deck, i love it. the most recent list is below, so yeah.

Creatures:
4   Dark Confidant   
3   Phyrexian Negator   
2   Waterfront Bouncer   

Disruption: 
4   Counterspell
4   Arcane Laboratory
4   Force of Will
3   Mana Leak   

Draw/Tutoring:
3   Brainstorm
1   Ancestral Recall
1   Mystical tutor
1   Vampiric Tutor
2   Skeletal Scrying
1   Demonic Tutor       
1   Fact or Fiction

Removal:
1   Darkblast
1   Echoing Decay
1   Rushing River

Accel:
1   Black Lotus   
1   Mox Emerald   
1   Mox Jet   
1   Mox Pearl   
1   Mox Ruby   
1   Mox Sapphire   

Land:
2   Flooded Strand   
4   Island   
4   Mishra's Factory   
4   Polluted Delta   
4   Underground Sea

my sideboard is all aggro and Oath of Druids hate since i have terrible matchups with them. here it is:

4   Blue Elemental Blast (Goblin Welder)
3   Fog Bank (proved well against Oath of Druids)
1   Waterfront Bouncer
1   Darkblast
1   Diabolic Edict
4   Leyline of the Void (i still need a little combo hate =/
1   Phyrexian Negator (for decks using few creatures to increase the clock)

i am still not sure on Leyline or Planar Void, Planar Void crosses with my Skeletal Scrying but isnt only playable opening hand, however it is usually too late if i drop it late game. Until someone gives me a good reason i am going to stick with Leyline. I could still use some help on my Aggro matchup, anyone got any ideas?

//wtp.

[netherspirit]

Just a thought and all, but if you decide to go with Forbid you could try Ensnaring Bridge. Might be worth trying.

[never]

You should be running lotus petal to increase your chance of counterspell first turn. You should also be running Mana Drain instead of counter spell.

The ideal position with your deck, and with any deck having Mana drain is to have 2 blue up by turn 2, 1 if possible, and then drain into a threat. Your deck's key spell has 2 colorless mana, and Draining a spell on turn two, means you can tap 1 island to play Lab on turn 3, while still having Drain/Leak Mana open in case they have a bounce spell and win next turn.

Not to mention, Drain Mana can be used with the following cards in your deck, besides arcane lab.

4   dark confidant
3   phyrexian negator
2   waterfront bouncer
1   Demonic Tutor       
1   Echoing Decay
1   Rushing River
4   Mishra's Factory   

And drain mana is essential to making these cards worthwhile,

2 Skeletal Scrying
1 Fact or Fiction

And the other cards that are missing from your build, which I think are essential:

Mana Crypt
Sol Ring
Mystical Tutor
Tinker
Darksteel Collosus
Timewalk

Tinker is too good not to run, in a build that has blue. It wins games all by itself.

And Mana Crypt and Sol Ring help power out Lab faster.

[wethepeople]

i did run Tinker for a while but i took it out for some reason. Mana Drain really does not work as well as it seems in this deck. i also dont own any Drains so i am not too crazy about adding them =/

Ensnaring Bridge would stop almost everything from attacking, and i dont like winning off Confidants and Factories (i did for a while) it just takes too long. and since i am going back to DSC i think Bridge would screw me over.

i will however go back to tinker/DSC, i will drop a Negator when i do so. i cant believe i didnt have Mystical Tutor in there. thats wierd. i have a Sol Ring that i can put in, however Mana Crypt will probably just kill me since these games arent very short at all.

[never]

if you're running tinker, you're going to want crypt as another artifact to tinker out, and if tinker is your kill, your games should be a lot shorter and the damage from it wont matter. Also, if you're not running drains, you're going to want as much acceleration as you can get to help make sure you can get Lab out as fast as possible.

[netherspirit]

I honestly don't think Mana Crypt is any good in here, Mana Drain would be great though IMO.

[wethepeople]

i just tested Crypt, in one of my 3 games it did the total of 12 damage to me. not a good idea..

i cant even get Drains anyway, i have used my limit for proxies =/

[zimagic]

Erayo doesnt work, it is very rare to get both of them out at once. this combo would require you to play Erayo first or not at all, because he cant be flipped with lab out.

Erayo & Lab has to work in the format with access to all the best search cards. I'm not saying that it will be the best deck but you can't argue with a play that says "I win" when you get it.

You don't want to be a slave to the idea of Erayo then Lab, which is fine, however Lab is so strong that sometimes it doesn't matter that you don't flip Erayo first as is Erayo if you don't hit Lab. Don't forget that Erayo is a (slow) win condition too.

I would actually build the slavish Erayo / Lab deck with counters, Sol Rings, 0cc accelleration, all the search, and run Tinker/DSC as your win knowing that if you resolve Lab on a flipped Erayo it doesn't matter if you never see Tinker or DSC as your next Erayo will go the distance against everything except Factories & man lands.

[wethepeople]

i am going to try Erayo again, only three however because i really dont want to have multiple copies at hand. i will run sol ring, petal, all the accel besides Crypt, Crypt kills me too often because the games usually consist of around 20 turns.

[Shock Wave]

Please play Mana Drain instead of Counterspell, for the love of sweet Jesus.

[wethepeople]

i cant. 

this deck is somewhat budget, i already used my proxies, so i dont want to cut Drains for Moxen, do i?

[Shock Wave]

i cant. 

this deck is somewhat budget, i already used my proxies, so i dont want to cut Drains for Moxen, do i?

That's totally fine. Provided that you acknowledge Mana Drain is retardedly broken and absolutely must be run in control decks that cast spells (ie. 99.9% of them), you're in the clear. Not owning Mana Drains is an acceptable reason for not being able to run them in this deck. Being afraid of mana burn is not. 

[zimagic]

i cant. 

this deck is somewhat budget, i already used my proxies, so i dont want to cut Drains for Moxen, do i?

That's totally fine. Provided that you acknowledge Mana Drain is stupidly broken and absolutely must be run in control decks that cast spells (ie. 99.9% of them), you're in the clear. Not owning Mana Drains is an acceptable reason for not being able to run them in this deck. Being afraid of mana burn is not. 

Shockwave & wethepeople, have you an optimum decklist for this? U/B is preferrable.
From there I think that Proxie priority can be decided. There are slightly poorer solutions for not having 6 mox but not necessarily for not having 4 Drain.

[wethepeople]

my current proxy list is:

5 moxen
1 lotus
1 recall
1 walk
1 sea
1 force

as for the unpurchased force of will, if i cant get one in time i want to be sure that i will be using one. i am not going to play a control deck using only three forces so at the time i must proxy one. i am thinking of cutting off-color moxen, and buying that force of will so i can play four drains. is this a bad idea?

i run 2 scrys, factories, and a fact or fiction. i use a lot of mana during my turn so i think drains would help. the problem with cutting moxen is that it eliminates my tinker/DSC win, because i will be running three less artifacts. anyone of any ideas?

i dont really want to buy that underground sea at the moment, i just spent over 100 on 3 of them (as well as 70 for forces), and i am too young even work a job, so it is a bitch and a half to get that kind of money. it wouldnt kill me to not run a full set of drains, i have seen decks only running two, because they dont rely on them for mana acceleration.

if this deck doesnt work out i am going back to EBA, and maybe even SS. i love SS, its just there is so much aggro.

//wtp.

[zimagic]

The Sullivan Solution runs Erayo as a control piece & Joshua Vitullo ran the following to 14th place in Waterbury (http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=18348)

Maindeck:

Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Dimir Cutpurse
3 Meddling Mage
1 Psychatog
3 Erayo, Soratami Ascendant

Enchantments
1 Arcane Laboratory

Instants
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
1 Chain Of Vapor
4 Force Of Will
3 Swords To Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Time Walk

Lands
2 Island
1 Plains
2 Swamp
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Wasteland

Sideboard:
2 Null Rod
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Energy Flux
1 Darkblast
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Stifle
1 Swords To Plowshares
3 Extract

This is very much an aggro control deck but you can see straight away if you cut the aggro suite how many slots are left to run Erayo/Lab. Don't forget though that being vintage, 1-ofs like the Lab here can be viable. You can run 3-4 Erayo and 1-2 Lab and still expect to get the combo off.

I'm currently looking at 3 versions: Pure Erayo/Lab combo, Discard Combo & Counter Combo.

[wethepeople]

that list really just appears to be EBA with an SS creature base.

but anyway, i want to atleast get lab when i can because i can still go with the soft "Counterspell every threat" lock, since i run enough counter disruption to do so. however i also like the Erayo lock, it works very well to hold off my opponent, and if i manage to resolve both of them, i basically win.

i tested 4 Labs and 3 Erayos in quite a few games and twice i managed to drop both. i went broken turn 1 and flipped Erayo followed by a turn 2 demonic tutor for Lab. i then won off my Factories and Confidant. that was probably the best game i have had with this deck.

another game i managed to flip Erayo turn two against Pitch Long, it took him a while to go off after that and i seemed to keep drawing Force of Wills, so he really had no chance.

i like the somewhat aggro build on this deck, it gives me another way to win if i dont manage to resolve my lock pieces. i personally wouldnt consider 4 Confidants and some Factories aggro, but i understand why.

//wtp.

does anyone know what are good sideboard ideas for the Gifts matchup? not necessarily for this deck, so colors are not limited to U/B.

[parallax]

I think Repeal is necessary if you run Erayo. Repeal is good all-around bounce for anything that slips under Arcane Lab. I always wanted to run a Lab deck that ran Forbid-Squee and a Bazaar of Baghdad draw engine, but that just seems bad.

[wethepeople]

dark confidant works with Forbid, it kinda sucks having to leave 3 mana open for it every turn though. it is awesome when my opponent pulls a "land, go." turn. i get to play some more shit on my own turn rather than holding back so i can buyback forbid.

i think i am going to MD 3 Forbids from now on, they kind of suck when i get them without lab and few mana, however they are only a step down from Counterspell.

thanks for the 26 replies of help everyone!

//wtp.