So yeah, White counterspells...

[Norm4eva]

You know, I would really like to ponder this notion some more, being that most people seem to concur on the notion that White would be the next likely candidate to receive anything resembling a hard counter.
It seems that each color is perfectly capable of performing the tasks of other colors, it's just a matter of moding.  Green, for example, shouldn't be getting burn spells, yet when dealing with flying creatures there's actually a number of ways to cook them right up.  Seems it's an issue of arena.
White tends to wait until there's been an actual trespass before initiating control, at least insofar as Instants are concerned.  How many not-quite-StP variations have their been in recent years, and how many of those say "RFG target attacking or blocking creature"?  The 'taxing' effect also illustrates this, as a means of issuing a ticket to the egregious offenders.
So for discussion's sake, let's say that the following series of spells were on the drawing board.  For now, CMCs are irrelevant but we'll assume a minimum of WW.

White Counter One
WW
Instant

Play -this- only during combat.
Counter target spell.

White Counter Two
WW
Instant

Counter target spell if it targets you or a permanent you control.

White Counter Three
WW
Instant

Counter target spell if it's not the first spell played this turn.

White Counter Four
WW
Instant

For each spell after the first one played this turn, counter it unless its controller pays 1.

WC1 is a very strict play of the theme of White's Instants; they are most effective during combat.  WC2 is an illustration of White lashing out at one who would threaten his kingdom; it could never prevent a deck like Solidarity from goldfishing, but it could attempt to counter the lethal Stroke of Genius.  WC3 and 4 both play with the taxation flavor of White; Three is basically a one-shot Rule of Law while Four allows any spell to resolve so long as its controller is willing to move up the 'tax bracket' (though I probably did not assume the optimal wording).
Remember that I wouldn't necessarily advocate costing these as shown, but WW is used as a placeholder because what I'm hoping to explore is "a very White counterspell"; as Green deals direct damage in a manner apart from Red, so too would White counter in a manner apart from Blue.  The question I'm posing is, what's the execution?

[chrissss]

well, I agree with your logic, but no matter how you change the wording, other colors shouldn't get hard counters, especially when they cost WW. Blue has a hard time having hard counters for UU nowadays, so white shouldn't get them either. This is just my opinion, but I prefer to let something like counters up to wizards, and if they ever print non blue counters, then its something different from us creating them.

I like the ideas you have, but I would definitely make them cost more than WW.

[Godder]

I think the second and fourth options represent White best, as 'don't mess with my stuff' and 'taxation' are White philosophies, although Illumination is another possibility. I'd also point out that White has limited counterspells of sorts in the form of Damage Prevention and Protection.

[Norm4eva]

I think the second and fourth options represent White best, as 'don't mess with my stuff' and 'taxation' are White philosophies, although Illumination is another possibility. I'd also point out that White has limited counterspells of sorts in the form of Damage Prevention and Protection.

Ehhh, kinda true?  For that matter, Giant Growth counters target Lightning Bolt.  It's one of those "everything's a Time Walk" things; one can compare one game function to another and see that the ends are the same in spite of the means, but for the purpose of this particular thread I'd like to avoid "counter by association".  Mother of Runes is a good example of this; she counters all kinds of things, or at least obviates things like StP or Lightning Bolt.  In this way, WC2 is expressed as being in flavor.

[Godder]

I originally had Giant Growth effects as counters for burn, but I realised that Giant Growth doesn't counter Lightning Bolt (for example), it masks the effect.

In game terms, that won't matter more often than not, but there is a difference between Giant Growth and Pro: Red - one allows the creature to keep going despite being hit by a Lightning Bolt, whereas the other avoids it being hit in the first place (particularly since Pro: Red would counter the Lightning Bolt on resolution because it wouldn't have a legal target). Indeed, Protection counters all targetted spells/abilities, which arguably gives White the WC2 effect anyway (e.g. Razor Barrier).

From a development point of view, WC2 would actually have to be really cheap to be playable, because Razor Barrier and similar effects do the same things and more besides (like making Auras and Equipment fall off and some measure of unblockability as well as getting around Earthquakes and Hurricanes). I feel the card could see "print" with current wording, however, because it's well within the realms of "don't mess with me or my stuff".

[Norm4eva]

Yeah, I figured WC2 was the most likely candidate.
So, okay, since it needs to be cheap to be good, should this be 1W?  If it's WW, should it cantrip?(as White as it is, it might not be 'White enough' to just draw a card for WW.)  Making it just cost a single W would make it pretty playable and highly reactive; it sort of seems like it should be .5W :P

[The Atog Lord]

For whatever its worth I have long believed that white should have counters, instead of blue. White is the color of law and of order. Law is about saying no. Order is about restricting freedom. White should be able to declare that an action about to be taken in fact cannot be taken. Saying "no" seems much more white than blue.

From a flavor perspective, it would kick some life into WotC's least favorite dumping ground for bad parts of the color pie. Blue would still have decent fliers, bounce, and card draw. But with Green more and more becoming the "creatures that don't suck" color, that leaves white with little. Blue has to much, white has too little. Instead of taking what little design space there is for "good bears" and giving that to white, let white have counters.

This idea isn't as crazy as it sounds. White has often been a control color, and MWControl has seen play in Legcy. But what does White need to actually be a functional control color? Counters. Because that Haunting Echoes really can't be allowed to resolvce. And by giving white counters, it can no longer be both the "Akroma's Vengeance" color and the "Hound of Konda" color, trying to do 2 different and moreover mutually exclusive things at once.

So, yes, for both flavor and practical reasons, white should have counters.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

I agree in general to the idea that other colours should be able to counter, at least in a limited sense. Illumination is a very good example of a counter with a white flavour. Artifact Blast made sense to me being red, as it was a preemptive Shatter. Green has been able to counter abilities for a long time. Black had Withering Boon and Deathgrip. Now, that being said.. how to make an appropriate counterspell for white? This is an issue I've been struggling with for my own block, and am still hammering out. Remember, if white denies something, it either gives compensation (think Swords to Plowshares/Condemn) or affects everyone (Wrath of God). So, perhaps something like:

{W}
Instant
Counter target spell if it targets a permanent you control. Its controller gains life equal to that spell's converted mana cost.

Atog Lord: I have to disagree with you on one point: White doesn't need counters to be a functional control colour, any more than Red or Black do. Black is a good example of a colour that can play control without running counters at all. Yes, you can argue that Duress is a preemptive counterspell, but it can't really do anything in a counterwar unless you've already plucked FoW (and found they have another in hand..!!). What Black does have to help its control game along is card drawing, which is one place White sorely lacks anything outside Land Tax-style effects. For a monowhite deck to function properly IMO in any given style, it really needs card drawing, and (as an example) its best cantrip right now is arguably Carom. [Carom: 1W Instant: The next 1 damage that would be dealt to target creature this turn is dealt to another target creature instead. / Draw a card. Common from Dissension.] And if you think a fair counter for White is hard to come up with, try one for card drawing. You ain't seen nothin' yet.

[Matt]

I don't think white should get counters per se. They can fizzle stuff just fine with Shelter and Gilded Light effects, but flat-out countering a spell just doesn't feel right to me.

[dandan]

Of course White IMHO could offer the offender the chance to direct his spell elsewhere or change his mind and have it fizzle.

White Counter Two (Dandan version)
WW
Instant
Controller of target spell that targets you or at least one permanent you control either chooses to have the spell countered on resolution or chooses new target (s) excluding you and your permanents.
If you check you'll find that §1565.2 subsection B clearly prohibits such behaviour within the confines of our fine city

Eat Bolt Red mage or kindly decide that you were mistaken when aiming that Bolt in my direction.

[Marco]

This is my white counterspell (a Sorcery):

Card Name
W
Sorcery
The next spell an opponent plays this turn is countered.
Draw a card.

[Mindstab_Thrull]

Of course White IMHO could offer the offender the chance to direct his spell elsewhere or change his mind and have it fizzle.

White Counter Two (Dandan version)
WW
Instant
Controller of target spell that targets you or at least one permanent you control either chooses to have the spell countered on resolution or chooses new target (s) excluding you and your permanents.
If you check you'll find that §1565.2 subsection B clearly prohibits such behaviour within the confines of our fine city

Eat Bolt Red mage or kindly decide that you were mistaken when aiming that Bolt in my direction.

Bleh, so cumbersomely worded..

White Counter Two, Dandan Version, Mindstab_Thrull Redux
WW
Instant
Control of target spell that targets you or a permanent you control chooses one: counter that spell; or that spell targets a new target other than you or any permanents you control.
If you check you'll find that §1565.2 subsection B clearly prohibits such behaviour within the confines of our fine city

Still not "clean", but I think the wording's better.

[parallax]

Instant
Target spell can't target you or permanents you control. Its controller may choose new targets for that spell.

[Norm4eva]

Hrm, so now we're talking about a White Misdirection?  Seemingly that ability is in Red, since it falls under the heading of 'trickster effects'.  Preventing a bank robber from hurting innocent people in a hold-up is White.  Making the gun blow up in his face is Red.
Is White more likely to misdirect or just counter?

[parallax]

Umm . . . its controller may choose new targets for that spell.

So white says, you can't shoot me or my people, but you're perfectly welcome to shoot those other people if you wish.

[Norm4eva]

I saw the 'its controller' stipulation.  You're still turning the shotgun back at Elmer Fudd.  White does this on occasion, like Honorable Passage type stuff, but I don't know if being able to do it to everything from Incinerate to Icequake is as W as it is R.

[parallax]

I saw the 'its controller' stipulation.  You're still turning the shotgun back at Elmer Fudd.  White does this on occasion, like Honorable Passage type stuff, but I don't know if being able to do it to everything from Incinerate to Icequake is as W as it is R.

You're not turning the shotgun back at Elmer Fudd. All you're doing is saying, "Hey! Elmer! I'm wearing Kevlar so don't bother shooting at me." Elmer Fudd is still the shotgun's controller so why would he choose to shoot himself? All you're doing is protecting your stuff. What's not white about that? You're even being nice enough to give the controller a few more options.

[Matt]

Instant
Target spell can't target you or permanents you control. Its controller may choose new targets for that spell.

I like this, especially in multiplayer. Feels kind of gold though.

[Anusien]

This is my white counterspell (a Sorcery):

Card Name
W
Sorcery
The next spell an opponent plays this turn is countered.
Draw a card.

I really like this.

[Norm4eva]

The CCF Strikes Again!!

Rechazar a los malvados (something like "reject badness" or some dang thing, je ne parle pas espagnol :/)

W

Instant

Counter target spell that target a permanent you control.

Link is here. http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=62304

CCF has arguably 'predicted' 2 cards in TSBlock so far (Knight of the Holy Nimbus and this new one).  Add to that the remarkable similarity between Cascade and Replicate.... Are we getting really good at this, or are they just slowing down? :) 

[parallax]

MaRo mentions a white Memory Lapse in this article: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr261

[OfficeShredder]

They even steal the name of my thread for the sub-title of one of their articles!

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=mtgcom/daily/mr261

And Now For Something Completely Different

What an outrage!  :lol: /hop on bandwagon/