Eudemonia 4 Color Fish

[Anusien]

The Misdirections could become Duress, but not for the reasons of Dark Confidant.  I think that Misdirection is free and Duress costs mana is relevant.  I'm also skeptical of some of the Swords to Plowshares, since 4 seems like overkill.  I'm wondering if some number of Repeal main would not be awful to remove Chalices; although there isn't a lot of acceleration.  Kataki is also a techy maindeck choice.

[oneofchaos]

Misdirection off confidant = ouch

With forces we get a enough pain as is.  It's better to cut them for duress or another form of disruption that is >3

If I was going to play this in 5 minutes i'd play:

4 dark confidant
4 meddling mage
4 juton grunt
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 stifle
4 hide/seek
3 duress
2 swords to plowshares
2 Kataki
1 timewalk
1 ancestral recall

4 polluted delta
4 flouded strand
3 tundra
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 island
1 swamp
1 plans
1 mox jet
1 mox pearl
1 mox sapphire
1 mox ruby
1 lotus petal
1 black lotus

sd
2 kataki
2 STP
3 true believer
2 jitte
4 pithing needle
2 arcane lab

[MagicMan]

IM working on a fish deck for upcoming tourny and reading Dave F.'s Fish primer and this column has gave me some ideas.  I started with what this column started with 4 color fish but have taken out the red and made this deck. 

Suggestions would be greatly appreciate especially in regards to the mana base as I am still learning and trying to improve myself in the format which, I have dedicated all my magic time to no longer playing standard or extended. 

Thanks for the sugestions!!

Dark Confidant x4
Meddlign Mage x4
Kataki War's rage x3
Juton Grunt x3

Swords to Plowshares x4
Duress x4
stifle x3
Brainstorm x4
Force of Will x4
Ancestrial Recall

Null Rod x3

Black Lotus
Mox Jet
Mox Sapphire
Mox Pearl
Swamp x1
Island x1
Plains x1
Wasteland x3
strip mine
Flooded Strand x3
Polluted Delta x3
Underground Sea x3
Tundra x3

Thanks guys, Great reading everyones intelligent posts,
Thanks, John from Ashland, NH

[oneofchaos]

I've also tested with cutting the lotus petal out of the deck for another volcanic island.  The results are easily castable hide if need be (oath, slaver tapped out, etc), and a sexy board option of rebs.  Running 2 volcs also protects yourself as you can afford to lose 1. 

[pyr0ma5ta]

I've also tested with cutting the lotus petal out of the deck for another volcanic island.  The results are easily castable hide if need be (oath, slaver tapped out, etc), and a sexy board option of rebs.  Running 2 volcs also protects yourself as you can afford to lose 1. 

I disagree.  The colorbase on this deck is so incredibly thin already that cutting Petal for a Red source can't possibly be correct.  You're basically playing a 3-color deck with a 6-6-6 style limited manabase.  Drawing a Volc when you need either Black or White is unacceptable, because Volc helps cast only half of 4 spells in the deck.  And generally, Seek is better than Hide, except against Stax, where you really don't want to fetch a dual anyway.

[oneofchaos]

well of course it's a meta call pyromasta-

I wouldn't screw with then thin mana base if I was playing somewhere big.  I'm just saying due to it's success in my meta, it works for me, not suggesting it works for you.

[pyr0ma5ta]

Errr, lemme give you a hint.  Being able to cast your spells is good.  Having a good mana base wins games.  This is not a meta call.

If you've put in any time with the deck, you'll know that it has huge color issues.  All of the creatures require non-blue mana.  And the trademark spell of the deck (surprise!) requires BOTH non-blue colors.  Basically, before you draw your 7, you say a silent prayer that you'll have 2 or 3 fetches in your 7, or you probably can't keep.  This is the reason Mox Emerald is ze goggles in this deck.  The Petal is way, way, better than Volc will ever be in this deck.  And if you're casting Hide, you're probably going to lose unless it resolves.  You really want to be casting Seek. 

[wethepeople]

Lotus Petal is better than an additional land IMO. Yes, it can only be used once but it provides whatever color it is you need, however volcanic only provides two colors.  the use of hide/seek is to stifle opponents' win conditions, hide is really only used when threats are in play, such as DSC, 7/10, Platz, etc. This is exactly why he runs so few red mana producers.

I know everyone hates this card, but Mox Diamond is actually playable in a four color build. It provides all colors for the price of the land, and if you get a hand with two lands as well as diamond it allows you to have more options turn 1 as well as any color mana needed to cast such a spell. Take this into consideration unless someone finds a way to completely tell me wrong.

I personally think this deck idea is slightly flawed. You could use a much stronger mana base and simply run Extract, because there are several cards that can replace Hide. You must admit this deck has a very weak mana base running on four colors. I suggest you find a way to really give it a more stable mana base, or make the deck a little more reliable by cutting the least necessary color.

//wtp.

[Rittler]

Hi folks...

Well, this Saturday there is a Type 1 event in my area and since I managed to borrow all the cards I would need (all the power except Lotus, but I guess it's not the most important card in the deck ) I would like to bring this deck.
I read through all your posts and this is what I came up with:

4x Meddling Mage
4x Jotun Grunt
4x Dark Confidant

4x Force of Will
4x Duress
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Hide//Seek
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
2x ???

1x Lotus Petal
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Mox Pearl
1x Mox Ruby
3x Flooded Strand
4x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
1x Volcanic Island
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Island

SB:

3x Arcane Laboratory
3x Energy Flux
1x Swords to Plowshares
4x Pithing Needle
3x Jitte
1x ???

Well...

There are 3 free slots, 2 in the maindeck, one in the sideboard...
For the maindeck I can think of different possibilities, I could maindeck 2 Sensei's Divining Top, as suggested in the tournament report, I could come up with 2 Azorius Guildmage, I could add 2 Misdirections, perhaps 2 Katakis (come to that later), or even 2 Negators. I really don't know which one I should choose...I also could add a Wasteland and a Strip Mine, or a Strip Mine and a Mox Diamond, as proposed in the post above, what would you say is the best choice?
Coming to the sideboard there are more things to be discussed...
First off, why did I choose Arcane Laboratory over True Believer? - Well, I think with full acceleration it comes out early enough and since it only requires one blue Mana it's much easier castable than True Believer, and since True Believer seems to be our main weapon against Combo, I think the Laboratory serves the same purpose.
Why did I choose Energy Flux over Kataki, War's Wage? - I think if I'm paired against any artifact based deck I want the best weapon I can get, and Energy Flux definitely is. With full acceleration it should easily be castable and the fact that it doesn't beat shouldn't be such a problem, since you got other guys to do that job. Another thing I think about Kataki, especially as a maindeck choice is, it taps your Moxen as well...and I think this deck runs those Moxen to be faster than other fish decks, so I think in game number one, one should try to be faster than the CS or Staxx player and try to keep control of the game, without shutting down own mana sources, especially when playing with Duress instead of Misdirection. In game two I bring in the Energy Fluxes and don't care of my Moxen any more.
Why did I choose Jitte over Sword of Fire and Ice? - Well, I guess this is just personal preference, I made good experiences with Jitte and don't want to replace it with any other equipment.
Concerning the free slot, I definitely do not know what to bring in...a fourth Lab? or a fourth Energy Flux? or any other card? perhaps a Rack and Ruin for the Chalice problem?

Concerning my Metagame, well it will be kind of mixed.
Several Gifts and TPS-Style Decks, a good amount of Fish, several random Aggro decks, several Oath decks and quite a few Slaver and Staxx decks. I couldn't say which deck I should expect the most off, but I guess there will be like 8 of 40 Oaths, 6 of 40 Fish, 5 of 40 Staxx or Slaver, 4 of 40 Gifts or TPS and the rest would be random Aggro or any other unique decks.

Now I'm really looking forward to your helpful answers...

Thanks...

[Dnine]

Going down to 22 mana sources is a bit risky, and I also count 61 cards maindeck so you really only have one spot left and I'd use it for another land or if you want to be risky then the top. 

For the sideboard if you expect other fish decks then you need more cards to bring in in that matchup.  Hide/seek and duress are both subpar in that matchup and 3 jittes will not be enough.  Expect your opponent to be bringing in them as well.  I'd say add another piece of equipment or additional creature removal.    Also I found 4 needles to be overkill and usually only sided in 2-3 so I could see this being dropped down to only 3 in sideboard. 

On a more general note, sometimes better cards aren't always the better call in certian decks.  While energy flux and arcane lab may be better "hate" cards then true believer and Kataki, the later fit into the theme of a fish deck better and that's why they see play in the decks.  Also 3 mana is not very easy to get early with this deck.  You have one less mox, no sol ring or mana crypts and less mana sources then standard control decks.  While I agree they may be better cards, this deck wants cheaper cards and things that beat, not 3cc enchantments. 

[Rittler]

Ok, so I should add one more land, I'd say the 8th Fetchland and go with a sideboard, somewhat like:

3x Kataki, War's Wage
4x True Believer
3x Pithing Needle
3x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Right?

[wethepeople]

Ok, so I should add one more land, I'd say the 8th Fetchland and go with a sideboard, somewhat like:

3x Kataki, War's Wage
4x True Believer
3x Pithing Needle
3x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Right?

there's got to be something better than True Believer in a four color build (WW must be hard in 4c). the rest looks good though.  i have always liked Energy Flux, it breaks Stax in half, however Kataki is similar.

[Rittler]

Well, I played this tourney and placed 8th.
I really like the deck, it's absolute fun to play and the two matches I lost, were the result of an impressive manaflood.
Also the True Believers in the Sideboard were not the right choices, since everytime I sided them in (vs. Slaver, Gifts and Pitch Long), I didn't manage to get these WW to cast them early enough.
The 4 equipments though, saved me against White Weenie and Affinity and I'm really happy about your advise of playing them.
I also would really love to fit some Kataki's in the maindeck, he's so usefull against a lot of decks, I really would like to see him nearly every game.

One last question I have is: Is this deck unpowered playable?

Thanks...

[keys]

How do you justify FoW with so few blue spells?  Admittedly, you have 16 cards, but I imagine that the only ones you will actually pitch are Brainstorm, Stifle, and double FoWs.  And if it wasn't for FoW, I don't think Brainstorm would be necessary.  Might it be more effective to drop Brainstorm and FoW in favor of a combination of REB, Orim's chant, and Fire/ice?  You lose some versatility for stronger and more efficient hate.

[Anusien]

Force of Will is an absolute necessity.  I'll pitch Ancestral to Force of Will if I have to in order to stay alive.  Force of Will and Misdirection are key to this deck because they allow you to tap out early and keep going.  You can turn 1 Dark Confidant, protect it with your pitch magic, and reload off that.  Discarding pitch countermagic makes you keep mana untapped, and the deck is already slow on mana sources as it is.

[oneofchaos]

I stopped using misdirections.  My simple change so far, is -2 ninja, -2 misdirection +4 duress.  It can essentially serve as a nice counter to any threats your opponents have.  Plus sometimes you get draws where you get your land, but no mox, diasabling a turn 1 confidant.  I'd say it's worth testing and would advise doing so.  Also in the board I play 3 aether vials, to get around challice, and other aggro decks.  Nothing says I love you, like an eot grunt, or confidant winning the game next turn.

[wethepeople]

Nothing says I love you, like an eot grunt, or confidant winning the game next turn.

 :lol:. i am going to try this deck again with MD Vials so i dont need to worry about having the correct mana and all that, it may not work but atleast i can say it has been done.

//wtp.

[Dnine]

  And if it wasn't for FoW, I don't think Brainstorm would be necessary. 

Brainstorm is one of the most important cards in the deck.  I would cut many more cards befor I even thought of cutting a brainstorm.  I wouldn't mind adding a top just to have brainstorm #5.  The deck runs a lot of 4 ofs and you need a way to smooth out your hand when you get the doubled up on certain cards.  With 8 shuffle effects you should always be able to shuffle away the cards you don't want. 

Oh, and cutting FOW is truely insane.  Any competitive deck has to run FOW unless it's running workshops.  I can see cutting the misdirections for duress, but Cutting the FOW leaves you too open.  Every single blue card in the deck is pitchable.  Unless you can guarentee to win every die roll duress is in no way a substitute for FOW. 

[oneofchaos]

  And if it wasn't for FoW, I don't think Brainstorm would be necessary. 

Brainstorm is one of the most important cards in the deck.  I would cut many more cards befor I even thought of cutting a brainstorm.  I wouldn't mind adding a top just to have brainstorm #5.  The deck runs a lot of 4 ofs and you need a way to smooth out your hand when you get the doubled up on certain cards.  With 8 shuffle effects you should always be able to shuffle away the cards you don't want. 

Oh, and cutting FOW is truely insane.  Any competitive deck has to run FOW unless it's running workshops.  I can see cutting the misdirections for duress, but Cutting the FOW leaves you too open.  Every single blue card in the deck is pitchable.  Unless you can guarentee to win every die roll duress is in no way a substitute for FOW. 

For the record, I never said force is replaced by duress.  I said Misdirection is replaced by duress.  It's a strong card for this deck, and it's basically a premature counter 5-8.  If you can grab that early key card, why counter it later?


Edit:

For those curious in the orginal deck, the average casting cost of a spell = 1.533 so your taking 3 every 2 turns off a confidant logically.  That confidant is also dealing 4 damage over those 2 turns.  With that logic you kill your opponent before bob kills you. 

However in my version the average cost of a spell is 1.3, if that even matters.  My only changes were -2 ninja, -2 misdirection, +4 duress.  The ninjas hit you for 4 each, and the misdirections hit you for 5 each.  This has also improved the fish mirror as you tend to live a bit longer off your bob.  Plus a turn 1 duress, can grab whatever non creature threat they have on you. 

[wethepeople]

I also like the Duresses over MisD for similar reasons. I have been playing the deck on MWS and have noticed that Bob practically kills you, as well as Ninja is like impossible to play. It does serve as a way to bounce Grunt's counters away, but i dont think that is a good enough play to use the slot, it also deals 4 with Bob. I tried the MD vials and it forces you to modify the list a bit more, but it isnt much of a problem. I am not yet sure which list i like more, but i will sooner or later.