Star City Games needs YOUR help!

[cdaniel]

Well, more specificlly I need your help. 

Matt and I are putting together a judge packet for our judges and we are going to include a FAQ on Vintage rules questions, and this is where YOU come in.  I need to know the things you wish the judges knew! If the question has already been asked in this forum, you can just email me the link to chad@starcitygames.com or if it is not on the forum, just send me the question and answer.  We want to ensure you get the quality judging you deserve at our Power 9 events.

Chad Daniel
Star City Games

[nataz]

excellent,
a very good idea before Boston hits. Will it be ready in time?

Regardless, I suggest brushing up on the dragon loop including:
-a blessing ruling, triggers, and stack order.

 

[cdaniel]

a very good idea before Boston hits. Will it be ready in time?

Possible, but that is cutting it really close.  In order for me to have it ready by then, I would have to have this Friday be the cutoff date for suggestions.  I want to make sure I give the community ample time in order to contribute to this project, so I am reluntant to do that.

We will see how it goes and I will keep you guys updated.

Regardless, I suggest brushing up on the dragon loop including:
-a blessing ruling, triggers, and stack order.

When giving suggestions, don't assume I know the cards involved.  Thankfully I have judged some Vintage events, so I am not completely clueless.  That being said, I think you are talking about Worldgorger Dragon and Gaea's Blessing?

Chad Daniel
Star City Games

[GrandpaBelcher]

Stax stacks, especially in regards to things like Energy Flux, Kataki, and Goblin Welder.

For example:

Stax has Smokestack at 1 counter going to 2, Tanglewire 3 going to 2 counters, active Goblin Welder, and, say, a Mox Pearl, a Workshop, and a Mountain.

Fish player has Energy Flux.

Can the Stax player end up with Tanglewire and Smokestack in play somehow?
What if they have two more non-Workshop mana sources?

I usually just end up trusting the Stax player when it gets too complicated for me to really know, and that sucks, so I hope the rest of us get to read this too!

[Anusien]

There are questions about the way Worldgorger Dragon interacts with Gaea's Blessing when you animate Ambassador Laquatus.  The question is, with infinite mana, can you stack your opponent's deck.

I'd include in the packet the current Oracle wording for a bunch of confusing cards:
the animates (Animate Dead, Necromancy, Dance of the Dead)
Illusionary Mask

I feel like there is more, but I can't think of anything.  I'll post more later.
By the way, are you going to do something similar for Legacy?

[cdaniel]

By the way, are you going to do something similar for Legacy?

Possible, let me get this one done first

Chad Daniel
Star City Games

[Cross]

I'm not sure if this is appropriate, but one thing I see people messing up on Magic Work Station a lot is Mishra's Workshop interactions.

-shop interactions with sphere of resistance and trinisphere
-interactions with soft counterspells like daze and mana leak

I don't know if this is something that judges would know, but if it comes up as much as it does on MWS, then it would be appropriate to have on hand.

Another thing people mess up often is what is misdirectable and what isn't.

[nataz]

When giving suggestions, don't assume I know the cards involved.  Thankfully I have judged some Vintage events, so I am not completely clueless.  That being said, I think you are talking about Worldgorger Dragon and Gaea's Blessing?

ha, sorry about that.

There are questions about the way Worldgorger Dragon interacts with Gaea's Blessing when you animate Ambassador Laquatus.  The question is, with infinite mana, can you stack your opponent's deck.

Pretty much covers it as far as the gaea's blessing  question. Depending on which judge you ask, some will let you stack a deck and some won't. Regardless on how I feel on the matter, it would be nice to get some sort of consistant ruling. 

Also when I say dragon loop, I'm looking specifically at the interactions between worldgorger dragon and animate dead, dance of the dead, and necromancy as the basic loop. This would be followed by any number of scenarios including read the runes, cunning wish, eternal witness (with the possible timewalk + ancestral recall kills), bazaar of baghdad etc. 

Something else that comes to mind is multiple Memory Jar hands/activations w'in a single turn. Making sure people remember the order that they were drawn in, making sure people keep the "hands" random, and making sure people are aware of which hands they get to keep at the end.

[Anusien]

More on Misdirection, what happens if you Misdirect something with only 1 valid target (like Duress).

And have a consistent policy on what happens if you try to re-Misdirect something but accidentally respond to their Misdirection and let it resolve instead.  As in, is this ruling by intent?

[Roxas]

I've had judges tell me that I couldn't "fail to find" cards while resolving Gifts Ungiven, so I'd include a note on that. 

Other stuff you should probably include:
 - All of the interactions among split cards, Dark Confidant, and Counterbalance
 - Everything concerning Mana Drain (what happens when someone casts a Misdirection on Mana Drain changing the target to Misdirection, Mana Drain on Chalice of the Void, the ability to Stifle the Mana Drain trigger that provides the mana, etc.)
 - How Misdirection interacts with Red/Blue Elemental Blast and Hydroblast/Pyroblast
 - How Chains of Mephistopholes works
 - What can and can't be done with Lion's Eye Diamond
 - More and better enforcement of slow play rules

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

I think you should be familiar with the formats most popular counterspells and how they interact with each other

Force of Will
Mana Drain
Misdirection
Red and Blue elemental blast.

This might be a more tournement situation but sometimes the stacks gets huge with 8+ counterspells/spells on the stack and being able to quickly analyze the situation effectively before making calls might be good to prep for.

[Matt]

A huge section on what you can and cannot do off a Yawgmoth's Will:

-You cannot cycle cards in your graveyard
-You cannot remove ESG from your graveyard to get
-You cannot put creatures in graveyard into play with Illusionary Mask
-You cannot remove cards in your graveyard to pay for Force of Will
-You CAN remove cards in your hand to pay for a Force of Will in your graveyard
-If you play a spell with buyback from your graveyard, it WILL go to your hand
-If you discard cards for any reason while Will's replacement ability is in effect, they will never go to the graveyard. Almost always they will be removed from the game without ever being the graveyard (a la Leyline of the Void), so you can't Weld them. The one big exception is Darksteel Colossus, which can either be removed or shuffled back into the library, depending on what order the DC's and Will's controller wants to apply the two replacement effects.


Sections on Mindslaver and Smokestack/Tangle Wire would also be handy. Also, make special note of Bazaar of Baghdad interacting with Uba Mask (you RFG 2 and discard 3, and you don't discard the cards you removed).

Note how Sundering Titan works, and why it can wipe a board of opponent's dual lands while hitting only one of yours.

Definitely make sure people understand the interaction between Sphere of Reisstance and Trinisphere, and especially know about converted mana cost for Chalice of the Void and Mana Drain. Specifically, CMC is (barring copy effects like Clone) ALWAYS the sum of the numbers in the top right corner. Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance do not change a card's CMC, and CMC is not "the amount I paid for this spell." Buyback, kicker, pitch-card mechanic, Trinisphere; none of these alter a card's CMC. An X in a CMC is zero everywhere except the stack, so a Powder Keg with no fuse counters will kill all Chalice of the Voids, no matter how many counters are on it.

[Scoops666]

I assume this packet will contain both rules and philosophy. In that case, I'd include a section on when it is and is not appropriate to fix a game state. This seems to be a point of confusion with both players and judges alike.

[Anusien]

I assume this packet will contain both rules and philosophy. In that case, I'd include a section on when it is and is not appropriate to fix a game state. This seems to be a point of confusion with both players and judges alike.

Actually, that's because policy keeps changing.  Atm, once you cross any decision threshold, you don't "fix" the gamestate.

[Apollyon]

Stax stacks, especially in regards to things like Energy Flux, Kataki, and Goblin Welder.

For example:

Stax has Smokestack at 1 counter going to 2, Tanglewire 3 going to 2 counters, active Goblin Welder, and, say, a Mox Pearl, a Workshop, and a Mountain.

Fish player has Energy Flux.

Can the Stax player end up with Tanglewire and Smokestack in play somehow?
What if they have two more non-Workshop mana sources?

I usually just end up trusting the Stax player when it gets too complicated for me to really know, and that sucks, so I hope the rest of us get to read this too!

Actually, answering that question is considered coaching, which you aren't allowed to do.

More on Misdirection, what happens if you Misdirect something with only 1 valid target (like Duress).

And have a consistent policy on what happens if you try to re-Misdirect something but accidentally respond to their Misdirection and let it resolve instead.  As in, is this ruling by intent?

A note: Misdirection MUST change targets if there is another legal target.

I've had judges tell me that I couldn't "fail to find" cards while resolving Gifts Ungiven, so I'd include a note on that. 

Other stuff you should probably include:
 - How Misdirection interacts with Red/Blue Elemental Blast and Hydroblast/Pyroblast
 - How Chains of Mephistopholes works
 - What can and can't be done with Lion's Eye Diamond
 - More and better enforcement of slow play rules

The first thing that I'd like to mention is that the judges should recognize that there is a difference between REB and Pyroblast and that they should know what it is.
There is a judge article on Chains of Mephistopheles. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=judge/article/20040910b
Any sort of notes on LED would be nice.
The slow play isn't exclusively Vintage-only, although Vintage players are notorious for being very slow players.

I'd like to see information about the following cards:
Trinisphere
Sphere of Resistance
Lion's Eye Diamond
Chains of Mephistopheles
Dark Confidant
Leyline of the Void
Animate Dead
Storm (any cards with the Storm mechanic)

I'd also like to see information about:
Fixing broken gamestates
Coaching
Slow play
Ruling by Intent

[Jacob Orlove]

Something about whose responsibility it is to deal with Mana Drain triggers would be good, since players never want to have to remind their opponent not to take mana burn, but also have a responsibility to keep the game state clear, particularly when the opponent taps some lands to cast a spell with Drain mana floating.

[Moxlotus]

Worldgorger Dragon, Animate Dead, Ankh of Mishra

Worldgorger Dragon, Necromancy EOT, Ankh of Mishra

A section on Stifle.  What can and can't be Stifled. 

During a Mindslaver turn, "failing to find"--yay or nay:
fetchlands
demonic tutor
cunning wish
         with no visible cards RFG
         with visible blue instant RFG
death wish
Intuition
Gifts Ungiven


How 2 Goblin Welders+Uba Mask+artifact in the yard means your opponent will never have a card again.

Necropotence and Memory Jar--can you end the turn with a bunch of cards in hand, or will they get removed from game with Jar?

Cabal Ritual--when how much mana it gives you is decided.

[Godder]

What's done on resolution vs what's done on announcement for common cards.

Oath triggers and Forbidden Orchard.

Oracle wordings for cards that don't match up well to their printed wording.

How Vintage games tend to average less than 8 turns, so using Standard slow play guidelines aren't very accurate.

[cdaniel]

Excellent suggestions! Let me address a few things

The one big exception is Darksteel Colossus, which can either be removed or shuffled back into the library, depending on what order the DC's and Will's controller wants to apply the two replacement effects.

Replacement effects and triggers do NOT work the same.  It does not matter who controls the replacement effects, it only matters who is being affected by the event being replaced or who controls the object that is being affected by the event being replaced.

Bottem line, the controller of the DC can always choose which to apply first.

I assume this packet will contain both rules and philosophy.

At first it wasn't, but based on some of the feedback here, I will now include a section for this.

How Vintage games tend to average less than 8 turns, so using Standard slow play guidelines aren't very accurate.

Well, there are no "Standard" (as in the format) slow play guidelines.  There are just slow play guidelines which can be accurately applied to any format. I do not want to turn this into a Slow Play disccussion, but if you would like for me to address the issue further, feel free to start a thread and then email me the link (chad@starcitygames.com) 

[matt_v]

I assume this packet will contain both rules and philosophy. In that case, I'd include a section on when it is and is not appropriate to fix a game state. This seems to be a point of confusion with both players and judges alike.

That should be in the next version of the penalty guidelines.

-Matt

[cdaniel]

Stax has Smokestack at 1 counter going to 2, Tanglewire 3 going to 2 counters, active Goblin Welder, and, say, a Mox Pearl, a Workshop, and a Mountain.

Fish player has Energy Flux.

Can the Stax player end up with Tanglewire and Smokestack in play somehow?

This is more of a strategy based question more so than rules.  It is basically asking, what order should I stack the effects in order to get the desired board posistion? If a player asked me this in a tournament, I would not say yes or no.  I would just repeat the rules he needed to know in order to make the correct decision.  I would bascially point out all the triggers that were waiting to go onto the stack and tell him that he is allowed to order them in any way he wishes.  Then to resolve them one at a time. Also I would like to point out, if the player states the order in which he wants the effects to resolve, this implicitly states the correct order for them to go onto the stack so that they resolve in the order he wanted.

Since I want to highlight the difference between answering a rules question and a strategy question. I am going to try answer this one. 

The Stax player should order his triggers like this. (The item listed at the top being the one to resolve first)

Tangle Wire - Remove a counter trigger
Tangle Wire - Tap 2 perms trigger (will be at two when it resolves)
Smokestack - Sac or Pay trigger
Smokestack - Sac 1 perm trigger
Smokestack - Add a counter trigger
Tangle Wire - Sac or Pay trigger
Mox Pearl - Sac or Pay trigger

Resolve the first one and remove a counter
Resolve the second and Tap Smokestack and Tangle Wire
Resolve the third and pay the 2 with the Mox and Mountain
Resolve the forth and sacrifice the Tangle Wire
Resolve the fifth and add a counter to Smokestack
Resolve the 6th, and choose not to pay since Tangle Wire is no longer in play

At this time you use Welder to Sac the Pearl Mox and Bring the Tangle Wire back into play.

Resolve the last and choose not to pay since the Pearl Mox is no longer in play.

If you had two additional non-workshop mana sources you end up with the Smokestack and Tangle Wire without having to use the Welder.

There are many "tricks" that can be performed, but most of them are still using the same basic rules.  Instead of going over every possible "trick" in the FAQ I am going to highlight the most common rules that apply to a given card and maybe a trick or two for an example.

Since I am a realitive newb to Vintage strategy, if I said anything wrong, just let me know

Chad Daniel
Star City Games

[Harlequin]

Spell Payment Order
Difference between a Paid Mana Cost, a Converted Mana Cost, and a (Card printed) Mana Cost

Question #1 -- Can Wasteland Target itself

Question #2 -- Exactly WHY don't you get to "fetch" a basic if you use Ghost Quarter Targeting itself (hint, see mana drain)




Answer #1 -- Yes, but the ability will not resolve... WHY?

Payment of spells order:
#1 - Declare Targets!! (and make other dirrect choices that the card requires - Kicker, Choose One, Split cards, etc)
#2 - Pay Costs (Tap it, Sacrafice it)
#3 - Put the ability on the stack (because the target was declared in step 1, and then paid for in step 2, so the ability goes on the stack targeting the wasteland that generated it, and when it resolves it would be countered apon resolution for reason of having no legal target)

Answer #2
See Answer #1
See Also: that when an ability with a single target has no target when it resolves, THE ENTIRE ability does not resolve.  So GQ can legal target itself, then sac itself for payment. And the ability will go on the stack.   But when the ability attempts to resolve... the ENTIRE ability does not resolve.  The reason I referanced Mana Drain is because you do not get the mana if the spell you are targeting is countered before mana drain resolves.  It is for the exact same reason.

[Hi-Val]

I know this is less relevant now than it was, but Standstill, please discuss what it ACTUALLY does. For example:

Standstill in play:

Player 1: Meddling Mage
[standstill trigger on stack]
Player 2: Force of Will
[standstill AGAIN on stack]
Standstill resolves, giving player *1* 3 cards, not player 2.

It seems a lot of people, judges included, think Standstill triggers immediately like Hesitation does. It does not.

[vroman]

How 2 Goblin Welders+Uba Mask+any artifact in the yard means your opponent will never have a card again.

or 1 welder + uba mask in play + uba mask in yard

[andrewpate]

I know this is less relevant now than it was, but Standstill, please discuss what it ACTUALLY does. For example:

Standstill in play:

Player 1: Meddling Mage
[standstill trigger on stack]
Player 2: Force of Will
[standstill AGAIN on stack]
Standstill resolves, giving player *1* 3 cards, not player 2.

It seems a lot of people, judges included, think Standstill triggers immediately like Hesitation does. It does not.

The Oracle text of Hesitation and Standstill seems to be the same.  I agree that Player 1 will draw the cards here, but I don't understand how Hesitation is different.  If you change just the card in your example, I think that Force of Will would be countered.

[parallax]

Hesitation and Standstill work the same way.

[Matt]

The one big exception is Darksteel Colossus, which can either be removed or shuffled back into the library, depending on what order the DC's and Will's controller wants to apply the two replacement effects.

Replacement effects and triggers do NOT work the same.  It does not matter who controls the replacement effects, it only matters who is being affected by the event being replaced or who controls the object that is being affected by the event being replaced.

Bottem line, the controller of the DC can always choose which to apply first.

I never said anything about a triggered ability. You're just restating exactly what I said.

[technogeek5000]

this comes up for me:

exact procedures for someone who has misdrew, error in mulligan, or forgetting to cleanup.

[cdaniel]

I never said anything about a triggered ability. You're just restating exactly what I said.

Opps, this is a case of me not knowing the cards.  When I read your post, I took it to mean that the DC and Wills controller could be different, but that is not the case. They would have to be the same.

A better example for my point would be Leyline of the Void.  If my opponent controlled a Leyline of the Void, and my DC would go to the Graveyard, I can still choose to have him go to my Library or removed from the game.

Sorry for any confussion.

Chad Daniel

[scutakicker]

--Engineered Explosives (playing it with coloreless mana as well as its interaction with Chalice of the Void, Sphere of Resistance and Trinishphere).
--Workshop and what it can pay for (interaction with Daze, Kataki, Leak, Sphere of Resistance, Trinishpere etc)
--Split spells and their interaction with Confidant, Isochron Scepter and Chalice.
--Erayo flipping and what it will counter.
--What searches can and can not be failed (fetches, wishes, tutors)
--What happens when someone fails to draw for confidant depending on the situation
--What can be Misdirected, how and what the effect is (vs. Duress, Drain, Time Walk [there have been some atrocious rulings with this], Tendrils of Agony, Stifle)
--Remand (interaction with Flashback, Storm and spells under a Yawg will)
--What this thing called the "combat phase" is--Vintage players always seemed to get confused by it.  :lol: