[Deck] RG(b) Beatz

[keys]

Current list, owing much of the card choices to our discussion:

RG Beatz

Creatures:
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman

Instants:
4 Pyroblast
3 Dead // Gone
3 Artifact Mutation

Enchantments/Artifacts:
4 Root Maze
4 Hidden Gibbons
3 Null Rod

Mana:
3 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
3 Mountain
2 Forest

Sideboard:
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Blood Moon
3 Naturalize
1 Artifact Mutation
1 Red Elemental Blast

Recent Deck Changes:
-3 SB Emerald Charm
+3 SB Naturalize
-3 SB Shatting Spree
+3 SB Blood Moon
-2 Elvish Spirit Guide
-1 Forest
+3 Simian Spirit Guide


Artifact Mutation is back in the maindeck, because, aside from Oath and a random Bargain, enchantments appear to be dormant in this format.  Lightning Bolt was replaced by Dead // Gone since that answers DSC at instant speed, something that R/G Beatz has needed for some time.

Planar Chaos gives us Simian Spirit Guide - Helpful for responding with Pyroblast or accelerating an early Blood Moon or Null Rod.

I've decided that Jitte is better than Rancor in the Fish matchup, which is really the only time I'll board them in.

Sideboard plans:

Long
-4 Grim Lavamancer, -1 Dead // Gone, -3 Artifact Mutation
+4 Pyrostatic Pillar, +3 Blood Moon, +1 REB

Gifts
-4 Grim Lavamancer, -3 Dead // Gone, -3 Artifact Mutation
+4 Pyrostatic Pillar, +3 Blood Moon, +1 REB, +2 Umezawa's Jitte (if you expect EtW)

Stax
-4 Pyroblast, -3 Dead // Gone
+3 Blood Moon, +3 Naturalize, +1 Artifact Mutation

Slaver
-1 Dead // Gone
+1 REB

Oath
-3 Artifact Mutation, -4 Grim Lavamancer
+3 Naturalize, +3 Blood Moon, +1 REB

Fish
-3 Null Rod, -3 Artifact Mutation
+3 Umezawa's Jitte, +2 Naturalize, +1 REB


POSTS MERGED

I have been toying with a RGB version of Beatz that I would like to share.  The addition of black was primarily to utilize the insane draw-power of Dark Confidant, and efficient disruption of Duress.  The obvious drawbacks include a less stable mana base, something that has always been one of Beatz's strongest assets.

However, my logic is that Beatz already has a good matchup against mana denial archtypes such as Fish and Stax, so a slightly more vulnerable manabase is affordable.

RGb Beatz

Creatures:
4 Wild Mongrel
4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman

Artifacts/Enchantments:
4 Hidden Gibbons
4 Root Maze
3 Null Rod

Instants/Sorceries:
4 Duress
2 Extirpate
2 Artifact Mutation
1 Dead // Gone
1 Simoon
1 Vampiric Tutor

Mana:
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Taiga
3 Bayou
2 Badlands
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Swamp

Sideboard:
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Pyroblast
2 Artifact Mutation
2 Extirpate
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Umezawa's Jitte

Recent Deck Changes:
3 Pyroblast (moved to SB)
+3 Extirpate
-1 Grim Lavamancer
-1 Artifact Mutation
-1 Darkblast
+1 Dead // Gone
+1 Simoon
+1 Vampiric Tutor


The manabase is difficult because I can't play too many fetchlards otherwise Root Maze becomes a problem.  I still like having ESG even in three color because it allows for a 1st turn Null Rod or Confidant, and it is always great under Root Maze; I've gone down to two.  Moxen are gone, as I see no point to playing them in three color if I'm running Null Rod.

The major differences to the creature base are the addition of Dark Confidant.  Kird Ape was the weakest link here, being a vanilla 2/3, so it had to go to make room.

Duress came in replacing Lightning Bolt.  In the sideboard, we have 3 Jitte and 2 Diabolic Edict to face aggro instead.  The singleton Dead // Gone and Simoon are also both great against Fish.  I'm using Vampiric Tutor to fetch them when facing down a DSC or mass Goblin tokens.

Sideboard plans:

Long
-3 Grim Lavamancer, -2 Artifact Mutation, -1 Simoon, -1 Dead // Gone, -1 Kird Ape, -1 Wild Mongrel
+3 Pyrostatic Pillar, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Extirpate, +1 Diabolic Edict

Gifts
-3 Grim Lavamancer, -2 Artifact Mutation, -1 Dead // Gone, -1 Kird Ape, -1 Wild Mongrel
+3 Pyrostatic Pillar, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Extirpate

Stax
-4 Hidden Gibbons
+2 Extirpate, +2 Artifact Mutation

Slaver
-3 Grim Lavamancer, -1 Simoon
+3 Pyroblast, +1 Extirpate

Oath
-3 Grim Lavamancer, -2 Artifact Mutation, -1 Simoon
+3 Pyroblast, +2 Diabolic Edict, +1 Extirpate

Fish
-3 Null Rod, -2 Artifact Mutation, -1 Duress, -1 Extirpate
+3 Umezawa's Jitte, +3 Pyroblast, +2 Diabolic Edict

[Acenought]

I really like Elvish Spirit Guides in Red Green beats, as well as greens main weapon in my opinion, Root Maze. Troll Ascetic is a bit weak with no Elves or Birds for the second turn play, so if you want efficient CHEAP damage Rancor is great as well.

What I think:
-4 Troll
-3 Price of Progress
-1 Goblin Welder
+3 Root Maze
+4 Rancor
+1 Pyrostatic Pillar

However you need more creatures then, but just some thoughts:P

[Dxfiler]

Oh RG beatz, how I miss thee    Basically, the deck isn't seen anywhere at the moment because Combo is at an all time high and absolutely ruins the deck.  Your only shot at beating combo game one is Root Maze or Pyrostatic Pillar.  I would not leave home without either card.  Hidden Gibbons is really good too.  I'm pretty sure you want to be sporting all three maindeck. 

If I were to play RG beatz again, my maindeck would look something like this:

4 Kird Ape
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Mogg Fanatic 
3 Root Maze
3 Hidden Gibbons
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 River Boa/Wild Mongrel (cases can be made for both... see below)
3 Null Rod
3 Hearth Kami
3 Artifact Mutation
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Tagia
2 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard:
4 Naturalize
1 Nullrod
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lightning Bolt

The Hearth Kamis fall on the curve better than Gorilla Shaman does, but you could make a case for either.  You don't want to just scoop to a chalice for one.  I like both very much.  Mongrels don't die to Darkblast and you don't have to keep a green mana open in the face of Pyroclasm.  Of course Boa is evasion vs. 90% of the decks you'll face, and can regenerate in the face of Jotun Grunt.  So both have perks.  Mishras Factories just aren't needed in this deck at the moment.  Drains mostly fell by the wayside in the wake of combo.  It's nice to have a factory when you have a pillar out, bit chances are if you have a pillar out you're winning anwyay.  Wastelands fit the deck so much better if you're playing with Rootmazes and Null Rods.  Mana disruption becomes a very viable plan. 

In the sideboard, Choke is really hot because it fits the mana denial route, but I don't know if there's room for it.  It could take up spots in the side over Reb, but I don't know if that's the right call.  I think ideally you want to run both.  Maybe the aggro match is so good you don't need lightning bolts in the board, but it's nice to be able to side out pillar when you run into it.  You're probably already siding out mazes for jittes in this version.  Combo is about as good as it's gonna get for you maindeck, and the only card worth siding in most cases post board would be the nullrod.  Against Dragon you want Naturalizes handy. 

So with the meta as it stands, that's pretty much the version of GR beats I'd personally run.  I haven't tested it in so long, so I'm not 100% sure on every card choice, but it's at least a good enough skeleton to work with.  I hope that helps.

- Dave Feinstein 

[never]

Dave,

If you're going to maindeck root maze, do you want 6 fetchlands in your deck? Could it be beneficial to use 3 fetches and 3 stomping ground instead?

If you drop root maze turn one, and then it takes you until turn 3 to do anything else, then haven't you stalled yourself as much as you have your opponent? Or do you feel thinning your deck trumps possibly stalling yourself?

[keys]

Thanks for the great input so far.

Dave-- I notice some key differences, aside from the ones you mentioned about the mana curve and the inclusion of Wasteland and Root Maze as mana disruption.  Number one, you cut all direct damage cards.  I'm assuming this is a move toward sustained and reliable sources of damage in aggro decks, and not just because of a lack of good burn cards.  This makes sense I guess, since we can't hope to race against combo or workshop type deck, which makes direct damage only useful against other aggro.  But isn't one of red's most useful assets the ability to win outside the combat phase?

The way I see it, it would be easy to remove the 3 Hearth Kami and 4 Fanatic, and replace them with 4 Magma Jet and 3 Gorilla Shaman/Goblin Vandal, keeping a similar mana curve.  Fanatic is a great card versus Welder and other aggro, but like you said, Combo is currently more prevalent.  Magma Jets offer some much needed deck digging, plus more Lavamancer food.  I figure the Shaman has a more focused target of Moxen, while Null Rods/Artifact Mutations clean up what it can't eat.

Is the combination of Null Rod and Root Maze redundant?  Could Blood Moon be stronger than the Maze, or is it too slow?  If we're really concentrating on mana denial, there might be better options.

Another thing I noticed is that your list has zero enchantment removal pre-sideboard.  You wouldn't expect to face Oath on a regular basis?

I agree with Never on the oposition between fetchlands and Root Maze.  Stomping Ground seems to be a good replacement, while Land Grant is another possibility.

P.S. Jotun Grunt was supposed to be a green card!

[[supa_t(im)]]

This is what I played and split top4 at a local tournament:

2 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Gorilla Shaman
3 Kird Ape
3 Basking Rootwalla

4 Root Maze
4 Rancor
4 Artifact Mutation
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Null Rod

SB
4 Naturalize
4 Red Blasts
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Blood Moon

Which I think is 61, and I know Dave hates when decks are 61 cards.  But I've been playing with this configuration for quite some time now and the reality is that the deck is so redundant it just doesn't do anything to the consistency.  If I had to take out a card it would be a rancor since it is dependent on having a creature.

I wouldn't play the deck in a tournament more than 5 rounds.  The only way the deck can win is to hate pre-emptively, which is absolutely usesless against random stuff.  In a tournament > 5 rounds you will probably encounter a deck you can't hate.  Also, as Dave Feinstein pointed out, it has a pretty poor game against Combo, which is currently huge.

Wastelands + Null Rod + Gorilla Shaman + Root Maze is the main way to shut down the opponent.  They overlap on purpose because RG sucks if it doesn't have multiple disruption pieces on the board.  And without a draw engine, it needs a lot of cards that disrupt in similar ways.

To pitch dead cards like multiple mazes or rods I included mongrel.  He is just so awesome because he puts everything on a quick clock.  He helps the random aggro matches and can in some cases save your butt against bad matchups like Oath.

I tried the root maze and pillar configuration main, but I found that it decreased my aggro and made some of my "good" matchups rather bad.  It also made me lose to random stuff even more.  It never actually improved my combo match enough to warrant both main.

I wouldn't go above 4 fetchlands with root maze, but they do need to be there for the slight thinning and lavamancer food.

Those are some of my thoughts on RG.

[wethepeople]

go RG BEATZ!

4 Pillars in the sb, a few Root Mazes in the MD (as stated above, they are terrible with fetchlands). when i played Beatz a few years ago i ran 3 MD Artifact Mutations but i guess 2 in the side work, they help soo much against Stax, it not only gets rid of threats but gives you more permanents to tap/sac for Wire or Smokestacks. i am pretty sure it can still be used on DSC, even if it doesnt destroy it, it still gives you 11 1/1 Saproling tokens, which is fun.

i once destroyed a turn 2 Sundering Titan with Mutation, very funny.

//wtp.

[keys]

I've compiled everyone's suggestions into a so called "master framework" for RG Beatz in the current field

Creatures:
4 [2cc] River Boa/Wild Mongrel
4 [1cc] Kird Ape
4 [Tim] Grim Lavamancer
3 [Anti-artifact] Tin Street Hooligan/Hearth Kami/Goblin Vandal/Gorilla Shaman
3 [Situational] Hidden Gibbons/Basking Rootwalla

Instants:
4 [Burn] Lightning Bolt/Mog Fanatic/Magma Jet
3 [Utility] Artifact Mutation/Naturalize/Pyroblast

Enchantments and Artifacts:
4 [Metagame] Rancor/Pyrostatic Pillar - versus excess aggro or combo
4 [Disruption 1] Root Maze
3 [Disruption 2] Null Rod

A good manabase will look something like this...
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Taiga
2 Mountain
2 Forest

It is possible and sometimes preferred to remove 1 or 2 Taiga for more basic land.  4 ESG may be too many depending on the red count.

Sideboard:
4 Naturalize/Artifact Mutation*
4 Red Elemental Blast*
4 Pyrostatic Pillar/Rancor
3 Emerald Charm/Tormod's Crypt/Choke/Blood Moon/Umezawa's Jitte

*Naturalize/Mutation and REB are staples; effective and easy to substitute in.  The last 7 spots might be determined by what was played maindeck (i.e. 4 Pillars if they weren't played maindeck because of excess aggro).

Of course this isn't the definitive list, but it's a good place to start.  Think of it like a skeleton.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Yeah, that is basically a good skeleton.

However, I would never go below 4 Gorilla Shaman unless the metagame was really scrubby or aggro based.  You really want to draw them in every match outside of Fish.  If anything it's a metagame call to go 3 Lavamancer VS 3 Gorilla Shaman.

RG is incredibly metagamable, you have tons of different cards that can potentially be in the deck.  I think you've listed just about all of them.  Naturalize can go MD if you play against a lot of Oath, I had that configuration for a long time.  Emerald Charm is also a good anti Oath or Dragon tech.

In the artifact destruction/situational creature slot I suppose Viashino Heretic could be mentioned.  He definitely is a solution to DSC.

I've also seen builds running Kudzu, but I don't think it belongs in this deck.  There was a RG that did well a while ago with it in it, so I thought it might be worth mentioning.

[Dxfiler]

Dave-- I notice some key differences, aside from the ones you mentioned about the mana curve and the inclusion of Wasteland and Root Maze as mana disruption.  Number one, you cut all direct damage cards.  I'm assuming this is a move toward sustained and reliable sources of damage in aggro decks, and not just because of a lack of good burn cards.  This makes sense I guess, since we can't hope to race against combo or workshop type deck, which makes direct damage only useful against other aggro.  But isn't one of red's most useful assets the ability to win outside the combat phase?

Outside of type one, Red likes burning your pants off.  In Vintage, I found that it's best asset comes mainly from the cheap creatures and arrtifact distruction.  You just don't run into aggro alot, and if you do... it's fish.  A.K.A The Bye.  Burn isn't needed for that match in this format, because as you mentioned, any other non-aggro match you're just getting outclassed while holding a lightning bolt.  That isn't to say that a version with alot of burn won't work, but I think in the current metagame your best bet is spells that do consistent damage.  Hence the Lavamancers and in this format, the best burn spell you could ever have: Pyrostatic Pillar.

The way I see it, it would be easy to remove the 3 Hearth Kami and 4 Fanatic, and replace them with 4 Magma Jet and 3 Gorilla Shaman/Goblin Vandal, keeping a similar mana curve.  Fanatic is a great card versus Welder and other aggro, but like you said, Combo is currently more prevalent.  Magma Jets offer some much needed deck digging, plus more Lavamancer food.  I figure the Shaman has a more focused target of Moxen, while Null Rods/Artifact Mutations clean up what it can't eat.

I'm lending the RG beats list I posted earlier to one of my good friends at SCG Boston.  I already showed him the list, and the very first thing he suggested was removing the fanatics and hearth kamis.  The kamis I'll go into below.  As for fanatics, what are two of the most played creatures right now?  Dark Confidant and Goblin Welder... always as 3-4 of's.  Fanatic likes hanging out with those dudes.  He takes their lunch money all the time.  Lightning Bolt?  He can mug them once or twice, but eventually they start fighting back, and then you're getting mugged.  Oh Feinstein and his terrible analogies. 

Let me put it differently, against Control Slaver I racked up alot of early victories with Lightning Bolt... it would just come out of nowhere and pwn.  After a while, my opponents started to adapt to it.  They would often wait until I was forced to tap out and then cast it + time walk.  Or if I constantly kept a red open, they would just wait until having sufficient counter backup and then go off.  Or even worse, I'd keep that one red open the entire time waiting for gobby to rear his ugly head, but they'd never actually drop the welder... instead setting up for a yawg will and owning me that way.  Now Mogg Fanatic, he gets around all of those scenarios, because quite frankly: No one wants to counter a mogg fanatic. He'll usually get in there because the opponent will be worried about more troublesome spells... and if they do counter him?  Chances are it's early game and they just ensured one less counter for a null rod, pillar or art. mutation.  Furthermore, if they do actually have to counter a fanatic, you might already have a gibbons out.  Getting gibbons activated off a lightning bolt probably won't happen, because bolt never gets cast early.  Fanatic is an ever-present threat to their welder, where bolt won't be countered unless welder has already been cast.  So if you have gibbons out and then cast fanatic (always the right call vs. slaver), odds are better of getting that gibbons quicker activated than if you were holding bolt.     

Is the combination of Null Rod and Root Maze redundant?  Could Blood Moon be stronger than the Maze, or is it too slow?  If we're really concentrating on mana denial, there might be better options.

I can't see Blood Moon over Choke.  I ran Moon for a while, thinking it would help my really awful matchups (dragon and oath), but it usually didn't matter.  Instead I was losing close matches to more played decks, all with blue in them, wishing I had Choke instead.  As for cutting Root Maze, DON'T DO THIS. :p
There's just too much combo right now, and you really need it in that matchup.  It can and will get sided out alot, but that's fine.  The number of game ones you'll win because you had it maindeck will be significant.  It's the same reason pillar is main.  Both cards are very good against Yawg Will as well, which is run in plenty of non-combo.

Another thing I noticed is that your list has zero enchantment removal pre-sideboard.  You wouldn't expect to face Oath on a regular basis?

Oath is such a terrible match that you just hope not to run into it.  You can't meta against everything with RG beats.  You need to really focus the hate at specific decks many people will play.  Right now, outside of a Carp brother, Oath doesn't put up consistent enough number or see enough tournament play to worry about.  Lots of other decks have nice Oath matchups, which is why it's not played as much... and that's why at the moment, I think it's a safe matchup to completely ignore.  I also take this approach towards Dragon, although Rootmaze can help big there.

I agree with Never on the oposition between fetchlands and Root Maze.  Stomping Ground seems to be a good replacement, while Land Grant is another possibility.

It dawned on me after including the extra two fetch that they don't play nice with Rootmaze.  I've since replaced them with another forest and mountain each.  Stomping Ground just isn't needed here.  sure the 2 life won't mattter most of the time, but making the deck less prone to wastelands when possible is definitely a good thing.

However, I would never go below 4 Gorilla Shaman unless the metagame was really scrubby or aggro based.  You really want to draw them in every match outside of Fish.  If anything it's a metagame call to go 3 Lavamancer VS 3 Gorilla Shaman.

Shaman is one of those cards that is nice to have but I don't think it's necessary.  A good player can easily work around it, and it's not like you can machine gun with it.  You seldom have more than 2-3 mana up at a time with this deck.  At best it catches someone off guard once and comes up huge, then after that you're lucky to kill anything with it.  That's my experience with it, but I could see people running it.  I prefer Hearth Kami in that spot because it's another answer to chalice for 1 (you don't want to be using artifact mutation on that when possible) and it's a more effective beater.

RG is incredibly metagamable, you have tons of different cards that can potentially be in the deck.  I think you've listed just about all of them.  Naturalize can go MD if you play against a lot of Oath, I had that configuration for a long time.  Emerald Charm is also a good anti Oath or Dragon tech.

 

Agreed on all of the above.  I don't think EC is needed at the moment, but if Oath/Dragon make a meteoric rise (consider another deck :p), then I could see their inclusion.  For now, Naturalize should suffice.

In the artifact destruction/situational creature slot I suppose Viashino Heretic could be mentioned.  He definitely is a solution to DSC.  I've also seen builds running Kudzu, but I don't think it belongs in this deck.  There was a RG that did well a while ago with it in it, so I thought it might be worth mentioning.

H8 heretic.  H8 kudzu.  For better alternatives see mutation, artifact and mongrel, wild.

As you mentioned earlier, I also do in fact h8 decksize, 61.  :p 


So that's all of my thoughts on the deck, in a nutshell.  I do think it could compete well in this metagame and will test my theory when my friend runs it at SCG.  I'm curious to see how he does with it because he's very enthusiastic about giving it a try and has done well at alot of high level tourneys in the past.  This will be his first time running GR beats, so I'm rooting for him... unless I run into him with my fish

I might even give the deck a try myself on day two, depending on how I feel.  Anyways, the thread has lots of good ideas.  Keep it up. 

- Dave Feinstein

[[supa_t(im)]]

The reason I want 4 gorilla shaman is because of the synergy with Root Maze.  If you can get both out really early they can't use their artifact mana ever.  It's also just good on its own.  In any deck running blue 1-2 is sufficient IMO, but without a draw engine, I really like having the consistency of having 4.  Once again though, the deck is so metagamable there isn't a card in the deck (besides possibly the manabase) that should be a 4 of in every situation.  So I don't think that 4 Shamans have to be there, but I do like having 4.   

Blood moon is in my build for more than just Oath.  It wrecks Grim Long, which is such a bad matchup.  It helps against Kudzu.dec which I've discovered is just bad for us.  Choke works as well, in certain metagames, so it should definitely be on the skeleton list somewhere.

However, I am going to say I'm not a big fan of any 3cc card that doesn't win the game.  Hence why I like Choke/Blood Moon much more than I like Troll Ascetic or Ohran Viper etc.  Mana drain is still something to be worried about.

[Tobi]

there isn't a card in the deck (besides possibly the manabase) that should be a 4 of in every situation

KIRD APE!!!!
On the rest, I agree. 

Viridian Zealot can also be a solution to Oath. The two green mana may be prohibtive though.

To improve the combo matchup, Tormod's Crypt also serve well.

[keys]

Fanatic likes hanging out with those dudes.  He takes their lunch money all the time.

Hehe, thanks for the illustration.

After reading your explanation and testing a bit, I must say my opinion has changed completely.  I think all arguments in favor of Fanatic over Bolt can be summed up in one word: Tempo.  Those turn four kills with Fireblast, Lightning bolt, Chain Lightning do not exist anymore.  3 damage to the head just isn't as threatening as it used to be.  Fanatic, on the other hand, doesn't sit in your hand waiting for a target (like you gloriously outlined), it also beats/blocks for one.  For our purposes, he essentially becomes a Seal of Fire with legs.  Just like how Seal of Cleansing allows White to keep applying pressure at the cost of instant speed surprise, Fanatic does the same for RG Beatz.

Thank you for showing me the light.

I'm also starting to come around on Hearth Kami, because he trades 2-for-1 with Moxen plus Isamaru/Meddling Mage/True Believer.  Rancor'ed he can stop a Jotun Grunt.  But more importantly, he's a stronger topdeck later in the game, being able remove more Stax threats and Juggernaut, as well as beat for 2.

Finally, I've decided Choke should probably be played in the SB over Blood Moon.  It's a complete lock with Root Maze, and seems to be more playable against the current field.

Good luck to your friend at SCG.  I'd love to hear the report.

[Harlequin]

Another reason I really like Hearth Kami in aggro style decks (like TMWA) is because he can go 2 for 1 with Manland's too. 

[keys]

Two more card choices:

Tin Street Hooligan
1R
Creature - Goblin Rogue
2/1
When Tin Street Hooligan comes into play, if Green Mana was spent to play Tin Street Hooligan, destroy target artifact.

I'm very suprised this has yet to be mentioned.  It is similar in many ways to Hearth Kami.  Advantages: 1. can take out a Mox and continue to beat, 2. its ability costs no extra mana to activate, besides the G.  Disadvantages: 1. requires G to play the ability, 2. effect is wasted if there are currently no artifacts in play, otherwise the card has to sit in hand until there is a target, 3. can't destroy at instant speed.

Thus, Hooligan is a great topdeck (naturally) when facing Sundering Titan, unactivated Mindslaver, and any other expensive artifact save Colossus.  However, Hearth Kami can take out a Tangle Wire during the turn it was played, before your next upkeep.  It's a tough call here, but certainly deserves attention.

Sundering Vitae
2G
Instant
Convoke (Each creature you tap while playing this spell reduces its cost by 1 Mana or by one mana of that creature's color.)
Destroy target artifact or enchantment.

It's basically a naturalize for 1 extra colorless mana that can also be played for free by tapping 3 untapped creatures.  You can tap saprolings, and against Oath, you can tap spirit tokens.

This is probably too situational to be any more effective than naturalize.

Still brainstorming.

[Cthulhu1975]

I'm new to this forum, and I've always loved playing R/G Beatz.

Well, I played a version that did quite well in Sweden, but it constantly had problems with Darksteel Colossus and Oath decks. It had good matchups versus Stax (Artifact Mutation rocks) & Fish and decent against Slaver.

Like somebody else said R/G Beatz is a meta deck, and if there are a lot of DS out there, I would consider playing Welder maindeck.

Hidden Herd could be a card to strengthen the mana denial in the deck (Root Maze, Null Rod, Gorilla Shaman/TSH, Wasteland, Strip). Hidden Guerillas could be played as well, but it's not that good if your opponent starts.

Then I will certainly play Krosan Grip (Time Spiral) in SB, probably substituting Naturalize. Important to destroy Oath and other annoying artifacts/enchantments (like Platinum Angel which is another bid trouble for the deck).

Burning-Tree Shaman is a bit expensive to play, but amazing against Dragon.

[keys]

Krosan Grip is a great addition.  Even at 2G, the "Split Second" ability seems so good that the extra colorless doesn't matter.

Here's another unrelated question: Rancor or Jitte against Fish?  I'm a firm believer in Rancor since it dodges artifact hate, and because it's cheap and efficient.  Of course, Jitte is a house when it gets moving.  Anybody have any more compelling arguments for one or the other?

[Yamin]

My earlier post got deleted.... anyway

What about Browbeat.  Browbeat sounds ideal to me, either they take 5 damage for 3, or you draw 3 cards for three.  What do you guys think?

[keys]

Browbeat is not a threat, nor is it effective card drawing.  To illustrate, say you're playing against Grim Long.  9 times out of 10 the player will take 5 damage, unless a few turns have passed and he is about to take lethal damage.  At that point he will let you draw.  There is a good chance that that one stalled play will allow him the time to combo out during his next turn.  If it doesn't, since it was his decision to stall, then he was probably going to lose anyway, and your Browbeat was still worthless.  Playing with this card gives your opponent unnecessary control of the game.  And the effects themselves aren't powerful enough to be valuable in every situation.

[keys]

Bumping this because it never received a response the last time around.

[Cab]

If Root Maze is the card causing this deck to have a less stable mana base, then why not just cut it in favor of Chalice? It seems easier to play around a Root Maze when playing combo than it does to play around a Chalice set at 0 and/or 1.

I have also been toying around with RGB beatz, although I have several different cards than you in my list. Here's my list:

Mana:
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Mountain
3 Badlands
3 Taiga
1 Bayou
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills

Artifacts/Enchantments:
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Null Rod
4 Pillar

Sorceries/Instants:
4 REB
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Naturalize
1 Demonic Consultation

Creatures/creaturelike:
4 Hidden Gibbons
3 Genju of the Spires
4 Dark Confidant
4 Wild Mongrel
3 Gorilla Shaman
1 Tin Street Hooligan

Sideboard:
2 Krosan Grip
3 Darkblast
2 Choke
2 Null Rod
2 Artifact Mutation
4 Root Maze


Now, I like Chalice over Root Maze because it slows combo's development, while not slowing mine. My version is very susceptible to Chalice set at 1, and I was wondering how I could correct that. I was thinking cutting 1-2 Genjus, and adding a good 2cc beater, such as possibly 1 more Mongrel and 1 Tin Street. I like Cabal Therapy better than Duress because of the multiple hit possibility, and if Shaman is not dropped 1st turn, he is not very useful besides as a blocker, and Cabal Therapy is not a necessity against a deck where I would need to use Shaman to block.

I like Darkblast in the sideboard instead of Mogg Fanatic or Bolt because it kills Welder, Confidant, Orchard tokens (not the main reason it is in my sideboard), and could possibly kill mages, true believers, and other 2/2s if used well. And if Confidant is out, then the dredge isn't as much of card disadvantage as it would be otherwise.

To Keys questions, because I was considering some of them as well:

1) Barring some miraculous accel, Negator is too slow to warrant the risk against any deck, imo. Turn 2 is still pretty good for dropping negator, but wouldn't you rather play a confidant on turn 2, or even confi on turn 1, and then root maze, null rod on turn 2? It just seems, to me at least, that there are much better plays that the deck could make without Negator than it could with Negator.

2) I do not know about Consultation. I would say another Duress would probably be better, but that is more of just random guessing than developed thought.

3) I was also considering Wretch, but when I came down to it, I decided that Crypt would be better than Wretch because of the ability of mass wiping of the yard as well as Wretch's BB cost. I think having any card that is double color in its cost would be bad for a manabase that is become less stable with the addition of black for Confidant and disruption.

4) There probably is no optimal mana base, especially with black being in there, because the different choices of cards require different mana options on turn 1. There is probably a fairly optimal mana base, but I don't think there will be a completely optimal mana base for RGB beatz because of the variety of card choices. I also noticed that you do not have any moxes in your list, could you explain why? I could only venture to guess that it is because of Root Maze and Null Rod. I am asking because Mox Jet has helped me cast Confidant on turn 1 several times when I needed to fetch a Taiga because the rest of my hand was red or green.


I'm not saying that my version is better than other ones that have been posted on here, just trying to help further the development of RGBeatz by putting something different out there. Critiques of card choices is welcome, as always.


EDIT: changes 12/2
-1 Taiga
+1 Bayou
-1 Genju of the Spires
-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Demonic Tutor
+1 Wild Mongrel
+1 Tin Street Hooligan
+1 Demonic Consultation

Sideboard (previously only 14 cards):
-1 Krosan Grip
+2 Artifact Mutation

[keys]

Hey Cab, thanks for the great feedback.  Your deck is intriguing-- I can see you're part of the radical no ape, no bolt camp.  I've been looking for a reason to cut Kird Ape, and I think it was right in front of me all along.  The only time he is ever a threat is when I Rancor him up turn two to swing for 4.  But it's true, Hidden Gibbons frequently does the exact same thing in 1 card, so now I've finally decided to drop both Ape and Rancor.

However, I would follow your own suggestions and reduce the Spires count for a 4th Mongrel and maybe TSH.  You can't reasonably be supporting that many early in the game.  Was that also why you chose not to play Wasteland/Strip Mine?  Generally, I like Lavamancer better as a lategame tool, which is strong in the Fish matchup, versus Welder, and because it has great synergy with Mongrel.

As for Bolt, I've always considered it interchangeable with REB/Pyroblast.  If I'm going to play REB maindeck, I want to have Bolts in the side to board in if I play against Aggro.  But I can certainly see the merits of playing REB maindeck first.

Now, Pyrostatic Pillar in the maindeck looks like trouble to me.  It's really only good versus combo, and I'd rather not have it explode in my face against Workshop based decks or Fish.  The Chalice argument is a fair one, but I like how Root Maze time walks me against opposing fetchlands, which are so abundant.  Also, if you're going to play Chalice, you're liable to counter your own Crypt and Moxen (which are already hindered by your own Null Rod).

I think V Tutor and D Tutor are too slow.  There are no silver bullets here to warrant this.  If you feel like you need a tutor, try out consultation-- instant speed for B, and no card disadvantage.  With such redundancy, you shouldn't find yourself getting decked very often, if ever.

Duress vs Cabal Therapy seems like preference, but I'll give it another look.  Why Krosan Grip instead of Artifact Mutation?  Mutation is a wrecking ball against Stax.

Again, thanks for the input!  I've edited the list above to include the changes I made.

[Cab]

I have chosen to test the deck without wasteland and strip mine just to see how it works, mainly. Plus, I think it somewhat combos better with root maze, especially against fetchlands, as it forces them to use basics, which they prefer not to do. Since I am not playing Root Maze, at least in the maindeck, I decided to test forgoing the mana denial plan altogether. Now, not to say that forgoing the mana denial plan altogether is the best option to do, I'm just testing it out to see what it does.

I figured that against the aggro matchup, I can bring in the Darkblasts from the side for at least 3 of the REB's. However, I do not think I have enough cards in the sideboard for against aggro. Does anyone have any suggestions for possible sideboard cards against aggro? Would Grim Lavamancer possibly be a good route to go because of his amazingness late game, or is some other alternative more optimal? And, if more cards are added to the sideboard for against aggro, what cards should be taken out? I was thinking Krosan Grip since Oath is not very prominent atm and the other artifact kill, both out of the board and in the maindeck, should be enough.

I completely understand your argument for Root Maze, which is why I still want it available out of the board. I will see how well Chalice works with my intended strategy, and if it doesn't, then I will probably substitute out the Chalices for the Root Mazes.

I think that pillar is pretty good against control as well, since any damage you can sneak in against control is an added bonus, even if it causes some damage to us as well. Yes, against Workshop based decks it essentially sucks, but I can at least hold it and pretend that it is an arti-kill card or I could discard it to Wild Mongrel to pump him. I realize that is a terrible argument for it, but at least since combo is pretty prevalent right now it is a great card against combo and at the worst it sneaks in some extra damage against control. Obviously, metagame would determine the spot for this card, whether it be in the maindeck or in the sideboard.

Yeah, I see your point on the tutors that I had in there, so I took them out in place of the 1 consultation. What is your reasoning behind having just 1 tutor as oppose to upping the count of REB, lavamancer, or shaman, or null rod, or any of those cards? Basically, has the consultation come in handy/saved your butt enough times to warrant its inclusion?

I like the therapy because of the potential hand destruction in one turn, which I figure can almost win me the game in one turn. That's my reasoning for therapy, and if it gets countered, then a counter was used on a hand disruption card instead of on one of my key beaters.

I like having the moxen in there because of the greater potential to go turn 1 confidant or pillar or even null rod + chalice for 0. That's my reason for including all the on-color moxen despite the lack of synergy with chalice for 0 and null rod.

I changed my list above to reflect the changes I noted plus adding a bayou.