Slivers in Vintage? Stop trying dude won't work?

[Guli]

I know the feeling aswell. When i pick up my competetive deck and suddenly someone casts a muscle sliver i seriously get demotivated. We all like slivers but we also know that slivers are not vintage material. I am calling for patience for that reason cause i don't have the right no waste your time by reading this. I also want to ask this, please don't judge to quickly just take a look and try to think about some of the tactics or advantages slivers can give us. They may prove unsufficient for Type 1 yes, but untill now i haven't seen a single decent sliver deck. They all look the same. A bunch of average slivers and some mana to cast them. That is not how a deck should be build. Slivers CAN do more than just 'attack'.

This is vintage so we need nasty abilities/effects. We also need disruption. So the direction i want to go is the already existing Sliver/Control but let us simply call it
Control/Aggro or 'Fish'. Now i will simply talk about some of the slivers i think should be added.


Number one on MY list is Hibernation Sliver

Cost = UB

2/2. ; All Slivers have "Pay 2 life: Return this creature to its owner's hand."

This is the only creature i know in magic that can be returned to hand at instant speed by paying life. Hibernation Sliver is also the only reason that i am trying to build a sliver based deck. Some stuff about this critter:

1.It is blue (Force of Will,Misdirection)
2.Even if you cast it your can always use it to feed Force of Will or Misdirection by paying 2/3 life
3.It can block small creatures and survive

*A little intermezzo*
Slivers need a little mana fixing in the mana base. I thought about Aether Vial as the perfect solution. So the list will have Vial/chalice (this means i am not going the Null Rod route let me point that out here aswell) as a form of disruption and mana acceleration.

4.You declare attackers, i activate Vial and drop the 2/2 block your meddling mage and pay 2 life to save my Hibernation. Another situation, i attack you don't block with your creatures and you also can not attack because i can bounce it and replay it with vial to block. Sure i am losing life but this is Vintage and using your life total as a resource is normal.

For now this is enough. To conclude: Hibernation sliver is even harder to catch than a Crystalline Sliver

Cost = WU

2/2. ; Slivers can't be the targets of spells or abilities.

The all famous Crystalline. I wouldn't add this sliver as fast as Hibernation sliver but to be honost even in Type 1 being untargetable matters in many situations. (not always i agree)

1.Also blue so it can pitch to Force/Misd
2.You need slivers in a sliver deck. 8 slivers simply isn't enough. And Crystalline is one of the best options you got.
3.Will make targeted cards like bounce/plow/darkblast/triskelon/.. dead

Let me create a fast list before i bore you guys.Then I will explain the ideas and strategy behind it.

4 Hibernation Sliver
4 Crystalline Sliver

4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
4 Mana drain

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Aether Vial

1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Thirst for Knowledge

What is important is to use Chalice of the void effectively combined with Aether Vial to control the board. Aether Vial works well with Hibernation sliver to stop early weenies. A turn 1 island/Vial is cute followed by turn 2 fetch and your mana drain is up. You can use mana drain to fuel TFK or Chalice. More cards that could benefit of the manadrain could be added. This deck does not use many 1 cc spells so don't hesitate to play chalice 0 and 1 as fast as posisble against Combo for example. Or against any other deck. It will most likely hurt you less than it will hurt them. Best is to play a Vial then chalice@1 then Chalice@2 so you can still get in your slivers. But the cards don't really counteract eachother. Chalice @ 1 wont stop your slivers and chalice @ 2 won't stop your vials so you can still play the slivers in the long run.

With force/misd/drain you will most likely disrupt those type 1 broken early turns. So there are heavy control elements in the deck wich will grant you the survival you need. Against fast fish or critters the slivers will do a wonderfull job by keeping them at bay early game. The real problem is a fast clock and board control.

Muscle Sliver will give you a faster clock. However i don't feel like playing muscle because alone he is just a bear. Still i have won many games thanks to him because the extra damage really counts and almost every time i had 2 or 3 slivers on the table so he is rarely playing solo. Still i don't feel comfortable with the muscle.

So i was playing around with this deck and then i saw that new Sedge Sliver from the new set. I tried him out instead of the muscle sliver but it didn't really work out that well. Sedge Sliver is a nice sliver but not in a control deck like this. I still didn't lose hope though cause there were more new slivers coming and who knows what new abilities were created. Then the seccond spoiler was a sliver that was actually a Juzam. This was also interesting because he provides me a fast clock.

Plague Sliver (Juzam Sliver)
2bb

All Slivers have "At the beginning of your upkeep, this creature deals 1 damage to you."
5/5

I will definatly test this when it comes out. The drawback seems worse than it actually is. If you have another sliver in the game you will get more damage that is true but you will also kill your opponent faster. If you already got your opponent at a life total of 14 then this guy means your opponent has at max 2 turns left. Interesting card should be playtested.

I don't like to preboard artifact or enchantement hate. This deck has a lot cards 4x so tutors would be less effective. This means if you want to add hate you need to add at least 3 copies to draw them consistently. I refused that unless it was a sliver. And believe it or not i was hoping for a creature that had some kinde comes into play effect and do something about artifacts or enchantments(oath).

Here is an example:

"Stern Proctor"
ICost = UU

1/2. ; When Stern Proctor comes into play, return target artifact or enchantment to its owner's hand.

You can play this card if there are no artifacts or enchantments in play.

If there is an artifact or enchantment in play (even your own) when this card comes into play, you must return one to owner's hand.  If not, then simply ignore the "comes into play" ability

Well it is not a sliver and the card is not that good (sometimes it can be though)

Then something wonderfull happened. Wizards somehow read my mind and quickly created this new tech

Harmonic Sliver
1gw
Creature - Sliver

Whenever another Sliver comes into play, you may destroy target artifact or enchantment.

2/2

I still can not believe it. Ofcourse i do not want to get overexcited about the new sliver but seriously when you make a deck and you need arti/ench hate (i use Seal of Cleansing in sideboard) and then suddenly such a creatures pops up as a spoiler you can feel the joy inside of your chest  :lol:

I can not wait for the blue slivers. At this moment my list is also using Synapse slivers (2 copies) for draw but they cost a lot mana. Thank god they are blue so i can still pitch them occasiaonlly for force/misd. The fact that Harmonic is 3 cc is also important. I can Vial at 2 and 3 will both be good in combination with Hibernation sliver. Let me create a list to get an idea.

SliverVial Control _{beta version}

4 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
3 island
1 swamp
3 underground sea
3 tundra
2 tropical island
1 black lotus
1 mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
4 Aether Vial
1 Sol Ring

4 Hibernation Sliver
4 muscle sliver (Juzam is a bad way to speed up the kill)
3 Harmonic Sliver (Synapse slivers' ability is powerfull but the mana cost makes him unplayable in T1)
3 Crystalline Sliver

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mana drain
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection

4 Thirst For Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall

1 Time Walk

So all the sliver lovers out there go ahead and post your insights. People who hate slivers and want to express that are also welcome but try to add something to the idea.

[keys]

I'd most certainly play Duress over Mana Drain; paying for UU won't be easy, and you don't really have any sinks for the extra mana anyway.  I think you should concentrate on taking advantage of Vial, and Muscle Sliver has much better synergy than Plague Sliver does.  Plus, dropping a fatty that doesn't help your other Slivers just seems incongruent with your strategy.  TFK instead of Brainstorm... really?

Since we're looking ahead, I'd plan on using Trickbind to help your combo matchup.

Ultimately, I think you're going to end up with a Sullivan Solution shell with Slivers replacing the creatures.  Sure, the Vials give you some tricks.  Can this actually be an improvement?  I don't know, I haven't tested.  I imagine it might improve the aggro and workshop matchups marginally, but it will greatly reduce its survivability against combo.

[GUnit]

Let me preface these remarks by saying that I'm a big sliver fan, I've loved them every since tempest block, I love playing them and they'll always have a special place in my heart.

The only reason that fish is a viable strategy is that each and every one of its creatures provides either very powerful disruption (ie. meddling mage), a critical answer to opposing strategies in the metagame (ie. stormscape apprentice vs. darksteel), or game-breaking card advantage (ie. dark confidant). In replacing these creatures with slivers you're basically neutering your own strategy, while simultaneously destroying your manabase. The abilities of hibernation sliver and crystalline sliver are non-factors if your opponent doesn't care that your slivers are in play in the first place.

Also, please don't take this personally, juzam sliver is awful.

[zeus-online]

Most of these slivers have no relevant ability...they're rather slow and your draw-engine isn't that strong... (its actually pretty bad)....

/Zeus

[Guli]

Juzam Sliver (Plague Sliver) is new and i am not sure if he is suited for the deck. I only said it should be tested.

Werebear doesn't do anything either, Phyrexian negator doesn't do anything either. But they do provide a faster clock wich is still viable even if it is type 1.

I agree that there are very few slivers that actually do something. That is the reason why the disruption should come from your hand. (Force,Misdirection,Mana Drain,Duress) And the ability to become a pitch for some of those cards is unique. So in a way Hibernation Sliver DOES indeed do something. Either it is slowly pounding away life total or when he is needed he flies back to your hand to feed your blue counter wall. So against controlish decks i see him more as a 2/2 pitcher (i hope i was clear enough).
And against aggroish decks he is a powerfull blocker. There is no other creature that can do this in magic. He is multitasking. So what you might ask... Well maybe my list is the wrong direction maybe this unique ability can be exploited in a better fashion.

The fact that he is a sliver made me wonder if more slivers should be added. And if so how can i fix the mana base? I strongly believe chalice/vial should be used in this deck idea. I don't need crystalline sliver in this deck or muscle sliver. But with only 4 sliver in a deck you can hardly call it a sliver deck can you?
And the whole chalice/Vial idea would become weak.

What i am definitly going to do is try to abuse these 2

Hibernation Sliver + Harmonic Sliver (Whenever another Sliver comes into play, you may destroy target artifact or enchantment)

A random Tinker getting cast is big trouble so i hope they make a tap sliver aswell against a Resolving oath or Tinker i have no answer right now in a creature form. I should either use some Diabolic Edict or bounce.

Creature base is important. Most sliver decks i saw ran every sliver and sliver queen stuff like that. That is simply unplayable unless someone can prove me otherwise. I am pretty sure i want to run

4 Hibernation Sliver
3 Harmonic Sliver

Rumors say there will be some kinda opposition sliver. There is another problem with slivers. There are no decent 1cc slivers available. I hope they made something decent for 1 mana aswell.

[Guli]

I can't think of any draw engine except TFK. Intuition/AK seems bad. Maybe that new Ancestral Vision since i am playing control roll anyway?

[Implacable]

I can't think of any draw engine except TFK. Intuition/AK seems bad. Maybe that new Ancestral Vision since i am playing control roll anyway?

Ninja of the Deep Hours? 

Oh wait, then you'd just want to play VialFish.

Dark Confidant?

Oh wait, then you'd just want to play SullivanSollution.

As has been said before, the problem with this deck is that playing with Bears is just bad.  I guarantee you that the guy on the other side of the table won't care that your Slivers are untargettable when he's Tendrillsing (oh dear god, the awful verbage) you for 40.  Sullivan Sollution just does a better job at what you're trying to do, and its card advantage engine is beastly.

[BruiZar]

First of all, I like the tone of your post. I'm not really fond of slivers as a creature type but they have some cool abilities. Congrats on spotting the pitchblocker, he's indeed a multitasker. I wouldnt play crystaline tbh cause you can just bounce in response to a target anyway. Harmonic sliver is more like Aura Shards and should be included imo. Hive stone gives some room for fish and SS creatures to be added. Jotun and meddling mage for example could just be added without. I think i'd scrap Vials and go the control route. Gemhide Sliver turns them all into birds (In this case, crystaline would help) and tremendously fix your manabase. This allows for more expensive control.

Something that discards cards sounds good though im not really excited about mindwhip (dont wanna lose creatures) or dementia sliver (too expensive) from timespiral.


Anyway, my 2 cents. Would love to see a t1 worthy sliverpile

[wethepeople]

what do you cast off Drain, besides TFK? i also think Duress would be a little better in that slot unless you add some decent things like FOF or Scrying. Juzum Sliver or whatever would work out very well in this deck, it cant be Vialed in with such a different CC and it may very well kill you. I suggest just using Muscle Sliver to pump all of your shit up rather than making one fat one. Another thing is you should run less Chalices, you will be screwed once your opponent gets rid of Vial and you have Chalice at say, 2?

i like the idea of the deck because its Slivers, and its very different, i suggest you stick with it became it seems like a pretty good idea to me.

[brianpk80]

I would cut some Chalices for Daze.  If you're going second, Chalices are usually dead in your hand because you won't want to cast it for 0 after your opponent has had the opportunity to dump his acceleration.  You want want to play it @ 1 because you will want your Vial down before doing that and that would take 3 mana, which you're not likely to see on the first turn.  Then later on, you can try playing it @ 2, but that just has "Drain me" written all over it, and typically just slows the game down until someone finds a Chain of Vapor and beats you that very turn.  Consider Martyr of the Frost, a 1/1 for U that Sacrifices for 2 to Counter any spell unless an opponent pays X where X is the amount of Blue cards in your hand you reveal.  Remember, that this is an uncounterable Mana Leak, so if your opponent Tinkers and can't pay the cost, he can't Mana Drain or FoW the Martyr to get back in the game.  That said, you will probably also want Voidmage Prodigies.  Again, their best value is not simply that they are walking counterspells but that they are walking uncounterable counterspells.  Later on, when they are both in play, you can use the Voidmage to sacrifice the Martyr since they are both Wizards.  Since you're playing with Harmonic Sliver, you should include Waterfront Bouncer for two reasons: it gets rid of evil things on the opponent's board that usually weren't hardcast (Akroma, Colossus, etc.) and if you don't have the bounce-Sliver, you can still send your other Slivers back to hand and bring them into play again to destroy artifacts and enchantments.  And if you run a "Fast Clock" Sliver, it should be the Muscle one because you won't want to move your Vial to 4 counters, ever.  Standstill is another option for draw in a Vial based deck.  You can drop the Chalices and the Thirsts.  I keep two Chalices in the sideboard in my Vial deck for when I'm on the play, but otherwise, I don't value them. 
Good luck,

-BPK

[Khahan]

Number one on MY list is Hibernation Sliver

Cost = UB

2/2. ; All Slivers have "Pay 2 life: Return this creature to its owner's hand."

This is the only creature i know in magic that can be returned to hand at instant speed by paying life. Hibernation Sliver is also the only reason that i am trying to build a sliver based deck. Some stuff about this critter:

1.It is blue (Force of Will,Misdirection)
2.Even if you cast it your can always use it to feed Force of Will or Misdirection by paying 2/3 life
3.It can block small creatures and survive

Cavern Harpy UB
When ~this~ comes into play, return a blue or black creature you control to your hand.
Pay 1 life: Return ~this~ to its owners hand.

[brianpk80]

Cavern Harpy UB
When ~this~ comes into play, return a blue or black creature you control to your hand.
Pay 1 life: Return ~this~ to its owners hand.

A fair comparison, but I think he's looking for a critter that reaps the perks of Sliverhood.   
The higher life payment on the bounce Sliver is probably offset its extra toughness and its ethnicity as a Sliver.

-BPK

[Guli]

You can not compare those 2 cards. I don't even feel the need to explain why just read the cards and use your logic...

There is a new sliver for blue that gives the ability to tap permanents. Guys seriously think about these new abilities for a seccond. Don't dismiss it so fast. I strongly believe with the new set slivers can become viable.

Telekinetic Sliver
2uu
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers have ": Tap target permanent."
2/2

14 slivers is enough in my opinion

4 Crystalline Sliver (Solid cheap sliver good pick to up sliver count. Can be replaced with another ability)
4 Hibernation Sliver (Idea behind the SliverVial and works well with Harmonic Sliver)
3 Harmonic Sliver (Disenchant: Oath,Workshop,Null Rod,...)
3 Telekinetic Sliver (Tap: Tinker, Oath)

There is a new 1 mana sliver for white (1/1) that gives Flanking but that hardly matters in T1.

Cutting Chalice?? The whole point is to play that Chalice as fast as possible combined with vials. Drain has targets, Chalice and TFK or the tap sliver. I am thinking about replacing TFK with Intuition/AK though.

[Hi-Val]

Juzam Sliver is more of a foil to sliver decks than anything else. Making all of the opponent's slivers eat a bit of him is good stuff.

[wethepeople]

i dont think you should use too many high mana cost Slivers in the deck unless you plan on hardcasting, which also is very hard to achieve. The idea of hardcasting 5CC Sliver just causes me to think of my old Stompy deck i created at the age of nine because there are much better things you can do rather than playing something big turn five. I think that an aggro deck such as this should have atleast won the game by now, if not set up a powerful line of Slivers soon to kill your opponent in 1-2 turns. Synapse Sliver is great if it actually resolves, but when your opponent Drains it and uses your five colorless to kill you, i think you will understand.

[TimeWizzle]

While I really like the idea of a Vintage slivers deck, i really don't think it can be done at a level that would be competitive in any decent meta.  Mostly because of reasons stated above, like Fish and SS doing the same basic thing for less mana and with more disruption and cardadvantage. 

That being said, I think that a Legacy build could be roxxors.  Muscle slivers make your guys too big to pyroclasm or attack through with gobbos, crystal/hibernation make them immune to StPs, and you can probably play rootmaze + chalice + stifle to get around combo.  You would only lose time walk/ancestral and would have to change your mana.

[Guli]

I ve been testing again, problems:

1.manabase

2.the tap sliver is costy and did not see a lot play, however i only used 2 copies.

3.I changed my draw engine into intuition/ak and added 2 merchant scroll/ 1 demonic This gave some tutor power to refull my hand faster and to get a sliver i need.

First of all i would like to say i don't just wanna use Hiber alone now i want to make a deck around

Hibernation Sliver + Harmonic Sliver (each sliver gains: "All Slivers have "When this creature comes into play, destroy target artifact or enchantment."")

That is already 4 colors. But the  abilities of both slivers and the little combo that they form make me feel optimistic again. I am strugling aswell guys i realize it is going to be hard to create something viable.

I would like to show the 1 mana slivers untill now


"Plated Sliver"
Cost = W

1/1. ; All Slivers get +0/+1.

Simply bad in T1


Sidewinder Sliver
Cost = W

1/1. ; All Slivers have flanking.

Better in some situations but still a pretty average ability.



Screeching Sliver
Cost = U

1/1. ; All Slivers have ": Target player puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard."

The blue one is more interesting. It disrupts vapmpiric/mystical/seal topdeck plays but other than that well i can't think of any advantage.




Mindlash Sliver
Cost = B

1/1. ; All Slivers have "1, Sacrifice this creature: Each player discards a card.".

Maybe with squee but then it still makes you sac a creature. It doesn't sound a very smart way to disrupt. Unless this can be used in your own advantage SOMEHOW i rather use cabal therapy


We also have Metalic Sliver

Not a lot of potential in the 1 drops if you ask me. The blue one is probably your best pick if you want to play with a 1 drop sliver. A 1 drop with would combine well with those hiber/harmonic because it is a cheaper way to disenchant. The blue one can also be used as pitch fodder.

4 colors already why not make it 5 colors while we are at it? The mana base will need serious fixing anyway. There is a green BOP sliver now btw.

Gemhide Sliver
Cost = 1G

1/1. ; All Slivers have ": Add one mana of any color to your mana pool."

Too bad it isn't a 1 drop. That would have made me consider him.

So with 4 or 5 colors there is need for mana fixing.

4 Aether Vial seems logical.
I am scared about city of brass. The pain will eventually become life threatening. With only 12-15 creatures Thran Q seems risky aswell. Lotus petal/mox diamond?

Suggestions are welcome for the mana base

[Gort32]

3.I changed my draw engine into intuition/ak and added 2 merchant scroll/ 1 demonic This gave some tutor power to refull my hand faster and to get a sliver i need.

The Intuition/AK draw engine sucks balls unless youhave some way to abuse it - it costs too much for getting too little and eats up a huge chunk of your deck.  Decks like Tog made the engine worthwhile because it dumped cards into the hand and graveyard for later munching and decks like Izzet Control can abuse AK to crazy proportions, but if your deck can't get more milage out of this engine than "Intuition at end of your turn, AK for 3" then you need to find a different draw engine.  It isn't optimal, but Skeletal Scrying may be an option plus Merchant Scroll+Ancestral of course.

[CCClark]

I doubt until they print this, Slivers will always sit in Legacy at the very least.


Broken Sliver  0

All Slivers are colorless and cost 5 less than normal.

[dawgie]

Why don't you add Winged Sliver as well?
Flying, untagettable, fat slivers seems like a good thing.

[zeus-online]

Because nobody plays with creatures, so flying is irrelevant?

/Zeus

[Guli]

As you can see the spoiler was wrong

You have to destroy an artifact or enchantement wich is bad with Vials and Chalice. I dismissed the idea for the moment

I am trying out that mana sliver thought looks interesting in a deck with mana denial/disruption (root maze, blood moon, winter orb, null rod)

[technogeek5000]

Yah i dont know if vial is the best application for slivers in vintage,

Ever since i saw this post ive noticed that slivers would not actually be that bad in vintage, because after 3 slivers you have total creature advantage over your opponent unless there playing something like FCG which im pretty sure is no longer viable.

5c slivers

Slivers(13):
4 crytstalline sliver
3 Hybernation sliver
3 harmonic sliver
3 muscle sliver

Brokenness/ support(5):
1 Wheel of fortune
1 Time walk
1 fastbond
1 crop rotation
2 Crucible of the worlds

Control(13):
2 Misdirection
4 Force of will
3 Red elemental blast
2 Null rod

Draw/ tutor(6):
4 Brainstorm
1 Ancestrall recall
1 Sensei's divining top
1 Demonic tutor

Mana source(23):
1 Mox diamond
1 Black lotus
4 Gemstone mine
4 Wasteland
4 City of Brass
1 Strip mine
2 Island
1 plains
2 Tropical island
1 Underground sea
1 tundra
1 plateu

Ok so this deck is pretty much just a aggro control mix. The draw count i believe is low but wheel of fortune and crop rotation i guess could be part of that to. This deck pretty much works like guli's does except the loss of moxes and vials.

Red elemental blast: Since 99/100 decks in vintage use blue this is a great maindeck card

Crucible of the worlds: A good card with the amount of lands going to the graveyard with this deck (mox diamond, 5 strips, and 4 gemstone mines)

sensei's divining top: The few people who have ran this card have given much praise to it, and it definately deserves it. This card helps you pull for all the slivers you need and extra control to keep up with the competitiveness f modern vintage.

Fastbond/croprotation: With fastbond, a strip and a crucible all of your opponents lands are dead, and crop rotation will help you get them or a land you need to cast a sliver in your hand

Wheel: Because trashing your opponents hand and renewing yours is something special, gives potential to red

Everyone is free to try this deck out, as i will myself. This deck looks like it has some potential, but there is most likely flaws. Please inform me, if you tested the deck, how it performed and what changes did you make.

Tng 5000,