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Author Topic: Suspend Cards with no mana cost and Mind's Desire.  (Read 3154 times)
Evenpence
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« on: September 20, 2006, 04:00:45 pm »

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Cards with No Mana Cost

Before Time Spiral, there were three reasons a card might get printed without a mana cost:

   1. It was a horrible mistake! (See the Alpha Cyclopean Tomb.)
   2. It was a land, and they have their own rules about how to play them.
   3. It was Evermind.
      
Evermind was never intended to be played—the only thing you can do with it is splice it onto another spell. To enable that, the card was printed without a mana cost and a rule backed that up by saying that a card with no mana cost can’t be played as a spell. Not only couldn’t you play Evermind as normal, but you also couldn’t play it via Fist of Suns or Spelljack or Isochron Scepter or whatever.

Time Spiral contains six new nonland cards with no mana cost. Like Evermind, none of them are intended to be played as normal. Instead, each one has suspend, and the only way to play one of them is to take the long way home and suspend it. You’ve seen two of these cards already: Wheel of Fate and Lotus Bloom. (Obviously you can’t just play a card like Lotus Bloom from your hand for free. That would be nuts!) Of course, after you’ve suspended the card and all the time counters have ticked away, you play the card . . . but the rules still say you can’t play it! That’s where I come in with my machete. See ya, you naysaying rules! Whack whack whack!

The new rule is actually similar to the old rule, but the subtle nuances make a world of difference. The new rule doesn’t say the card can’t be played—it says that a nonexistent mana cost can’t be paid. If you try to play Lotus Bloom from your hand, the rules will smack you down when you get to the cost payment. “How can you pay {}?” the rules gasp. “I don’t go in for your null set theory!” Increasing the cost doesn’t help; the rules don’t grasp the concept of {} + 1 Mana any better than they grasp {}. However, paying an alternate cost, or playing the spell without paying its cost, works because you sidestep the whole “paying {}” awkwardness. This lets a suspended Lotus Bloom work just fine: After the last time counter is removed, you play the spell without paying its mana cost. It also lets you play Evermind using Fist of Suns (since you pay White ManaBlue ManaBlack ManaRed ManaGreen Mana instead of the crazy {} noncost), or Spelljack, or Isochron Scepter. Have fun!

Note that the concept of {} is quite different than the concept of 0 Mana, which is a cost and can be paid. Also note that lands still don’t care about this rule because you don’t pay their costs.

This was from the most recent installment of a Gottlieb colemn, and is actually on the homepage of magicthegathering.com right now.

So, my question is pretty simple:  Can we play Ancestral Vision with Mind's Desire now to get the immediate effect?

If so, might an insane combo deck revolving around Mind's Desire be good in Vintage?  Smile
« Last Edit: September 20, 2006, 04:04:20 pm by Evenpence » Logged

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[17:25] Desolutionist: i hope they reprint empty the warrens as a purple card in planar chaos
Shmn
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« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2006, 04:21:19 pm »

Does this mean that Suspend cards without a mana cost can be played using Dream Halls?

Dream Halls
{3} {U} {U}
Enchantment
Rather than pay the mana cost for a nonartifact spell, its controller may discard a card that shares a color with that spell.
Within without.
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2006, 05:16:46 pm »

Yes to Desire, yes to Dream Halls.
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« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2006, 06:23:00 pm »

It's probably good Dream Halls is still restricted too.
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« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2006, 07:22:37 pm »

I was just thinking, it's good they didn't unrestrict Dream Halls yet.
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« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2006, 06:46:06 am »

hmm, it still is a 5 cc sorcery speed spell that doesn´t say "I win".
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Gabethebabe
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« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2006, 02:23:40 am »

BTW doesn´t matter how they wriggle, the have to define a mana cost for a Suspend card without mana cost.

There is this card named Mana Drain. Erratic Explosion. Etc.
I´´m still wondering whether a Chalice =0 would counter spells without mana cost.
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LotusHead
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« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2006, 02:28:34 am »

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http://The new rule is actually similar to the old rule, but the subtle nuances make a world of difference. The new rule doesn’t say the card can’t be played—it says that a nonexistent mana cost can’t be paid. If you try to play Lotus Bloom from your hand, the rules will smack you down when you get to the cost payment. “How can you pay {}?” the rules gasp. “I don’t go in for your null set theory!” Increasing the cost doesn’t help; the rules don’t grasp the concept of {} + 1 Mana any better than they grasp {}. However, paying an alternate cost, or playing the spell without paying its cost, works because you sidestep the whole “paying {}” awkwardness. This lets a suspended Lotus Bloom work just fine: After the last time counter is removed, you play the spell without paying its mana cost. It also lets you play Evermind using Fist of Suns (since you pay White ManaBlue ManaBlack ManaRed ManaGreen Mana instead of the crazy {} noncost), or Spelljack, or Isochron Scepter. Have fun!

Chalice for 0 counters these Suspend Cards.

Mind's Desire/Schepter/Fist of Suns let you play these with alternative casting costs (so 5 Ancestral.dec can be broken with Desire/Scepter) and the world IS going Crazy.
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BigMac
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« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2006, 04:39:53 am »

So if i read this correctly suspend is part of the manacost.

So when can this card be countered if at all and when does it go towards your spell count
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« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2006, 05:40:04 am »

When the last counters are removed, the cards are played if possible. At that point, they are put on the stack, and can be countered normally.

Actually suspending a card isn't a spell as such, so it can't be countered at that point.
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« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2006, 10:52:23 am »

@Gabethebabe: As far as Mana Drain and Chalice of the Void are concerned, cards without mana costs have, and always have had, a converted mana cost of 0. The rules on playing cards without mana costs don't affect this at all.

When you suspend a spell, by paying its suspend cost and removing it from the game, you are not yet playing a spell, and the card is removed from the game and is not on the stack. When you remove the last time counter, then you play the spell, it adds to the storm count and it can be countered at that time.

Suspend is not part of the mana cost.
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« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2006, 01:43:47 am »

Note: none of the suspend cards are instants.  Hence, you cannot imprint any of them on Isochron Scepter.
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Matt
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« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2006, 02:04:03 pm »

Oh there are ways to get one imprinted on a scepter. I believe they involve Mischevious Quanar or some other blue morph guy.
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