[New Card Discussion] Mystical Teachings

[Tin_Mox5831]

I saw this card and thought I should post it. It's a bit pricey, but the effect is real good:

Mystical Teachings   (Common!)   (3U)
Instant 
Search your library for an instant card or a card with Flash, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Then shuffle your library.
Flashback:  (5B)

We don't get too many straight-to-hand tutors, and the ones we do get usually turn things upside down. (See Gifts Ungiven) Not only that, but this card has Flashback, doubling it's lifespan. However, with Merchant Scroll and Gifts Ungiven already running rampant, will anyone make time/space to test a copy or two of this seemingly busted effect?

[chrissss]

I didnt see that it was a "instant OR flash". That makes the card more interesting. A direct tutor as an instant, with flashback. I Am sure it will see play, and the set will gain more Flash cards, so this card will be good. I am not so sure about T1 play though.

[FrenchBob]

The flashback cost is a bit pricey, but may we have a weird combo deck using Locket of Yesterdays ?

(Locket of Yesterdays
1
Artifact 
Uncommon
Spells you play cost 1 less to play for each card that has the same name as that spell in your graveyard.)

[Cross]

I'm not sure that this matters, but they said in the wizards rules article for timespiral that all the old things that can be played as an instant, except for some cases, will get the flash errata.

[Harlequin]

If that is true, Necromacy comes to mind.  Possibly a dragon tool?

Hopefully they get rid of "Substance."

[parallax]

If that is true, Necromacy comes to mind.  Possibly a dragon tool?

Hopefully they get rid of "Substance."

They can't get rid of "substance". It has nothing to do with flash. It is necessary to make those cards work. I keep hoping they'll print a new card that uses substance. That would be awesome!

[FlamingCloud]

Is it too much to ask for people to stop posting threads about janky cards?

[Metman]

Is it too much to ask for people to stop posting threads about janky cards?

Come on now.  This is definately a solid card coming out of the new set and will require testing to prove it's worth but that shouldn't keep us from discussing its merits in the format.  Gifts Ungiven was shunned by many people as a janky card and it turned out to be a format breaking card that got an entire tier 1 deck built around it.  Similar things could be said about Deep Analysis and it turned out to find a home in various decks.  Casting cost is the same on this, it's not card disadvantage like Mystical Tutor and has flashback.  Sure it may be a bit much but in a format that uses and abuses mana and the grave like type on nothing with an ability to tutor straight to your hand should be regarded as janky without testing and discussion.

[zeus-online]

It costs 4 mana. four mana. i repeat FOUR mana....i definetly got better things to do with my mana. Also it does the same thing as merchant scroll, sure its an instant...but....4 mana. four mana. i repeat FOUR mana.

/Zeus

[wethepeople]

The flashback cost is a bit pricey, but may we have a weird combo deck using Locket of Yesterdays ?

(Locket of Yesterdays
1
Artifact 
Uncommon
Spells you play cost 1 less to play for each card that has the same name as that spell in your graveyard.)

Why make a deck out of that? You are best off playing some other card that has an expensive CC.

[LotusHead]

This card, at EOT, DOES fetch ANY Instant (not just blue ones), and can fetch up a "Flash" card- usually a Beater. Beaters win most games in Magic now.

[Draven]

How many times would you rather have this card over Fact or Gifts? It just seems this card is kinda weak compared to the more powerful other cards.

[arcanis2000]

I kinda like this card.  It will take some time to prove it's worth, but I think it will be played.

[Darkenslight]

How many times would you rather have this card over Fact or Gifts? It just seems this card is kinda weak compared to the more powerful other cards.

Perhaps you're right, but perhaps there's a deck just waiting to abuse this.  I have a few ideas, like a Locket of Yesterdays/Helm storm combo deck.

[jaeppel]

It seems rather cute with the locket, and that was also my first thought.  However, doing the math it just seems a bit weak.  Something like intuition for 3 of these with a locket in play, and wow, i just cast merchant scroll as an instant for UU3.  Flashing back those three teachings (with one locket) will run BBB13, not very likely.  The situation improves exponentially with multiple lockets, allowing for the first at U, second for B1, third for B3, fourth for B5.  Still not very good, and now we are talking about having 2 lockets in play, casting int,  altogether UUBBB13... to merchant scroll 4 times.  for UUBBB13 i want i gigantic flying slug with haste, trample, untargetable, indestructable, and */*, where *=number of cards in target players library.

On the other hand, one locket+int for gifts+gifts will also cost UU3, and you can just play with merchant scroll.  That deck might actually win a game.

[dandan]

Obviously this card is pretty good in Type 4. with its very high % of Instants.

4 mana is a lot in Vintage though, although I thought 3 mana was too much for Cunning Wish and was proven wrong. I suspect that with 4 Gifts and 1 FoF to compete with, this probably won't make the cut.

[Demonic Attorney]

This might have potential applications in other formats, but to me, the gold standard for instants which cost 3U is Gifts Ungiven.  This card, while not awful, is not on the level of Gifts Ungiven.  I really don't see a reason to play this when I could resolve Gifts in its place.

[AmbivalentDuck]

This might have potential applications in other formats, but to me, the gold standard for instants which cost 3U is Gifts Ungiven.  This card, while not awful, is not on the level of Gifts Ungiven.  I really don't see a reason to play this when I could resolve Gifts in its place.

Because most of the cards you're likely to get *in hand* from Gifts are sorceries.  Here, you can also play whatever you fetch immediately.  That inclues the new Split Second evil they printed.  I'm confident saying that in any deck that runs this, it will be a *MUST COUNTER THIS OR LOSE* card.

Think the Split Second bounce spell (bouncing DSC at EOT is pretty good),or Darkblast, or Ancestral Recall, or the Split Second Naturalize, or the Split Second Stifle.  Realize that with 8 mana open, the "Stifle" in your deck, and this in your hand/grave, Tendrils decks could *never* go off.  Split Second made the "instant" class of spells much better by just existing.  I think you'll see a lot more Duresses getting played and Mystical Tutors getting countered, too.

[LordHomerCat]

Mystical Teachings for Ancestral Recall is 5 mana to draw 3.  That's garbage.  Wipe Away is UUU4, and if you are resolving a U3 draw spell, why don't you cast Gifts and just win the game?  I just can't understand any time that this spell would be better than Gifts or Fact, and saying you can spend 5 to Recall or 7 to bounce DSC is not very good.

Know what card really is a counter-or-lose card?  Gifts Ungiven.  This card lets you get a single instant for 4 mana.  That card gets you any two in hand and 2 more in the yard.  That's a pretty big difference, and I couldn't care less if my opponents are spending 4 mana on a merchant scroll.

[AmbivalentDuck]

I couldn't care less if my opponents are spending 4 mana on a merchant scroll.

Then you'll lose with your win condition on the stack or in play on a regular basis.  If you try to Gifts for an uncounterable answer, YOU WILL NOT GET IT IN HAND.  You will have to use sorceries like Recoup or Yawg Will to play the answer.  This card gets an UNCOUNTERABLE instant answer at instant speed.  You have to counter the tutor if you want to win.  And that's the paradigm shift.

Split Second changed *everything.*  Many tutors are now must-counter spells.

[diopter]

This card gets an UNCOUNTERABLE instant answer at instant speed.

Cunning Wish does this for one mana less. And that card is not thoroughly played.

It's all about getting what you pay for, or in this case, not getting what you pay for. If Mystical Teachings had cost one colorless mana less... then this discussion might be fruitful. Mystical Teachings has the cost of Gifts Ungiven with nowhere near its raw power, and it has the 1-for-1 capacity of Merchant Scroll with nowhere near its efficiency.

[President Skroob]

Fetching uncounterable answers means the spell you fetch has to be Split Second. This means that you will have to run the Split Second counterparts to spells that, for the most part, already exist in cheaper forms. Is the extra expense worth the Split Second function? That's already somewhat debateable, and now you're also tacking 3U on top of the already more expensive costs.

I'm sorry, but I really don't think you're going to be fetching uncounterable answers with this card every time. I do not believe that Split Second has distorted the face of Vintage to make tutors "must counter" spells.

Only time will tell.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Cunning Wish does this for one mana less. And that card is not thoroughly played.

Split Second isn't in the format yet.  And yes, I expect Cunning Wish to see considerably more play.

Note that I explicitly said:

I'm confident saying that in any deck that runs this, it will be a *MUST COUNTER THIS OR LOSE* card.

@Skroob
Any deck that can reasonably expect to be able to hardcast any UU 3 mana spell and plays a reactive game will *always* want at least one copy of the Split Second bounce spell.  Making all tutors must counter spells makes any plan involving DSC extremely hard to execute.  And don't forget that it nullifies common responses to bounce.  The Split Second Stifle is in debatable-land depending on what you intend to use it for.

The key here isn't the power of those spells.  You can't devote many slots to them in any case.  The key is that it makes tutoring insane because the tutored card is uncounterable.  With unanswerable answers, the tutors themselves have to be answered.


Edit: Clarity

[Metman]

I think that Time Spiral has enough split second cards that will make an impact in vintage to make tutors worth countering.  Fish will be on the rise and many of those variants run Stifle and bounce.  TS has two cards that will fit right in with that game plan.  Nearly ever deck runs MD bounce and nearly every deck runs Tinker/DSC.  Isn't Wipe Away a perfect fit in most decks in the format?  It's going to be run in CS, Gifts, and Fish and that will warrent more instant tutors don't ya think?  Mystical Teachings may just be the fit, who knows, but I will definately be testing it.

[LordHomerCat]

I couldn't care less if my opponents are spending 4 mana on a merchant scroll.

Then you'll lose with your win condition on the stack or in play on a regular basis.  If you try to Gifts for an uncounterable answer, YOU WILL NOT GET IT IN HAND.  You will have to use sorceries like Recoup or Yawg Will to play the answer.  This card gets an UNCOUNTERABLE instant answer at instant speed.  You have to counter the tutor if you want to win.  And that's the paradigm shift.

Split Second changed *everything.*  Many tutors are now must-counter spells.

So... the plan is, play lots of overcosted spells maindeck (like a 2G Naturalize and a 1U Stifle), and then plan on getting to 6 mana against Combo decks so you can have a chance to win?  And if they were to put a Wipe Away in the yard on Gifts, that means I get the Lotus, Tinker, Will, etc. in hand instead, which makes me perfectly happy.  Like seriously, if you just cast Merchant Scroll for Wipe Away or 1U Stifle, it costs you half as much mana and is actually doable in a reasonable time frame (unlike casting a 4 mana 1-for-1 tutor).  Its not like you even have surprise value, since you have to reveal, so I don't see any way that this is as good as Merchant Scroll.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Two words: Duress and planning.

I'm not talking about the 2G Naturalize, it comes down too late in the Oath and Stax matches to matter.

The 1U Stifle and Wipe Away *will* change Vintage if only by making everyone run 4x Duress maindeck.  Getting an uncounterable answer at instant speed means it cannot be Duressed.  The flashback on the tutor means that it cannot be Duressed (not that anyone would until it was critical anyways). 

And you do have surprise value because you can get the answer with Tendrils on the stack or at EOT after Tinker->DSC.

I'm going to bold the key point so people can tell what I'm getting at:
If your opponent plays Mystical Teachings and if you don't counter it, you're probably going to lose.
There are two ifs in that statement.  I'm not arguing that Mystical is better than Merchant Scroll.  (Though I think Cunning Wish will be a 3-of in many/most future decks.)  I'm not arguing that most/many decks should include the card.

[Tha Gunslinga]

If your opponent plays Mystical Teachings and if you don't counter it, you're probably going to lose.

Unfortunately, most decks that run Tendrils can go off before you can get enough mana to go Mystical Teachings for anything and cast it.

[AmbivalentDuck]

That's very true.  Hence the first if.

[President Skroob]

So I suppose the partner phrase to that statement would be "If your opponent plays Mystical Teachings, you probably deserve to lose." Sound about right?

[GrandpaBelcher]

I think that's exactly the point.  Mystical Teachings can make sure you don't lose (which, granted, against some decks is about as good as a win), but there's really no game-winning card that it can bring to your hand.  The only instant that is a counter-or-lose proposition right now is Gifts Ungiven, which you can already play four of, fetch with Merchant Scroll, nets you two cards, and costs as much as Mystical Teachings.  I really doubt that anyone is going to try to make a UU6 play to win the game--not in Vintage anyway.  What else are you going to get?  Brain Freeze?  Stifle and Trickbind are too too slow with 4 mana tacked on to them, and any Gifts or Slaver player worth his salt will counter your Teachings if he thinks you're getting Wipe Away for Colossus.  Going to get Rebuild against Stax?  For seven mana against Stax?  If you've got seven mana against Stax and two of it is blue, why haven't you won yet?  No, there are plenty of tutors in Vintage that are so, so much better than this. 

Dare I suggest: Personal Tutor?  At least that gets you Yawgmoth's Will.